OK55

220S,
You’re right, significant improvements were made on the w212 E63 hence its lap time of 8minutes 10s (Mar 2010 Sport Auto) around the ‘ring…but they also show in its impressive 1minute 14 lap (Mar 2010 Sport Auto) around the short tight 2.6 km Hockenheim.

The 20.6 km North Loop of the ‘Ring is much faster than the short Hockenheim…average speeds are some 20-25% higher. The E55k produced a respectable 1min 17.6s (Dec 2005 Sport Auto) lap time [fastestlaps.com’s 1:18.000 is uncorroborated] on the Hockenheim even though it couldn’t really ‘stretch its legs’. I believe it should be able to deploy its prodigious acceleration more effectively on the ‘Ring, especially with von Saurma of Sport Auto behind the wheel. Indeed, a time in the region of 8min 12 - 26s should be feasible.

That 8 min 50s time is spurious. It was put up by a non-discerning site that accepts data from anyone at all. The person who pasted it is unidentified and his sources are uncorroborated. In the aviation world that qualifies as ‘bogus’…but here I’ve tone it down to ‘spurious’….!

In the end though, the solution is to get the true figures for the E55k & E63, and put them up. If we can’t find them then we’ll need someone to volunteer an e55k for a trip to the ‘Ring…and von Saurma. Would 220S volunteer his 63…??LOL
Brgds

mikeevo

OK just got back from the Ring , I posted a 8:09 in my 05 E55, Someone call Sport Auto and tell them the update their page.

stevebez

I was considering going to the ring with the beast on the 11th July with a friend in his 360..... He will run rings around me I know !

Thing is the ring hates people strapping timing equipment to ther cars but I think I can get my vbox setup stealth.

Two things, I am told this car will cook its brakes half way through the lap. After three laps you need new pads..... PLopes recently tracked his car and his yellow stuff pads nearly caught fire I am told!

Tyres last between 5-10 laps depending on how agressive you are.

I am tempted to go, but I hardly think I will manage a competitive time also I dont want to end up wrapping the car into a barrier.. least of all myself. Anyone who has done this track on GT5 etc know there are more than a few surprises around that track. And then there is the issue re pads and tyres... and if its raining well I may as well stay in the restaurant....

Hmmm if I could only get off work for 2 days!

waxking1

The 8:50 time seems about right. Compare it to the 9:12 by the CL65.
http://cars.movieclipsfree.com/41676...rgring_lap.htm

e500slr

OK55 your explanation was WIN. Coilovers and MAJOR weight reduction would make it better. Some sway bars and strut braces would really help. What's with the SBC, can't we get rid of it? Can't we just "remove it" from the car like the coilovers and switch to hydraulic using STAR?

Why did the RETARDS, RETARDS at Mercedes and AMG decide to put some stupid POS idea only their retarded brains would think is beneficial. Just like Airmatic, they want to make life more difficult and heavier, literally. BMW has caught the demented bug recently ie electronic steering. These companies are plain retarded, CONVENTIONAL methods WORK, stick to them It's just like Ford's refusal to make the Mustang with full independent suspension, even the Cobra system they did on the rear SUCKED. Jesus Christ, seems like no one can make a proper car.

220S

The E Class is a "business saloon." It's not a sports car or sports sedan. It was built as an E Class on an E Class chassis. It just has a big motor. I don't understand why people buy the E Class without realizing this.

It's why AMG sells different models with a different chassis. Maybe get a different AMG? But aside from that, Mercedes/AMG has always been about comfort with power. They even advertise that way.

Keep the E Class if you like it, and buy a sports car or a GT or sports sedan as an addition. Or sell the E Class and buy a CLK Black. That's probably the real answer. No real point in telling a manufacturer what you personally want if it's not part of their agenda or portfolio. Just get a different car.

There actually are a lot of good options out there these days. But no one car alone can ever be perfect.

Anyway, they have made changes in the W212 E63. The chassis is tuned better for handling and a bit away from just comfort. So why not just buy the 2012 W212 E63 with the new 5.5TT?

e500slr

That wasn't my point, my point is will the comfort really be compromised without the SBC? AMG IS a sports saloon, yes it's comfort with power however AMG is the sports division like BMW M, if an older person wants a comfortable ride and bodyroll then get an E500, I got that for my wife because she doesn't want the power, the point is even if they want to make something based on comfort don't ruin the tune-ability IE SBC not being replaceable with good brake kits. At least the coilovers can be exchanged, but why make for example electronic steering. It KILLS input and response, it makes driving LESS comfortable. Plus if it's not a sports saloon then why does AMG exist?

220S

SBC is gone and has been since 2007 so it's kinda irrelevant now. But AMG/Mercedes has always been on the "soft" side of the equation. And the E Class in particular is marketed as a specific autobahn "business class saloon." AMG is different then the M division of BMW just like BMW is different than Mercedes. The AMG is what it is, and it's not built to be an "ultimate driving machine." Although there are certainly different models of AMGs to choose from, the E Class being just one of them. AMG/Mercedes is about being on the comfort side and always pretty much has been. Even Kleemann's marketing slogan is "Comfort Power by Kleemann."

It just so happens they stuck a SC motor in an E Class sedan with pneumatic suspension and numb steering along with drive by wire braking. It was a Mercedes E Class first and a "sports sedan" last. Which is why they made big changes later with the W212; to make it more like a "sports sedan." The W211 E55 no longer exists except as a used car. So just like SBC, it's sort of moot now.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just what it is. Get a used CLK Black Series. It's pretty much the most 'sporty' of all the AMGs. Or just get a Porsche or something similar. Unfortunately that's the way it is...... even the SLS is considered a "softer" supercar by all the media.

e500slr

You're right I agree 110% with you but it's still dissapointing to see that they didn't achieve as much as what they're capable of.

OK55

‘Feel’ is a very interesting word. From the dawn of control system design it’s been cited as crucial in machine design. It has also been a recurrent decimal in the design and appraisal of cars, boats and aeroplanes for decades. So I’m not really surprised it has cropped up in this discussion.

When technology was limited to cables, linkages and purely mechanical designs there was no issue with feedback in the form of ‘feel’. Indeed, several generations - including mine! –grew up with ‘feel’ and its indispensability. As technology, however, has evolved reliable electrical / electrohydraulic servo control systems, a new paradigm has been born and the world has changed. I remember when control-by-wire systems arrived on the Airbus A320 aircraft (in the ‘80s) aviation professionals were up in arms and cried that ‘feel’ had virtually disappeared, it was dangerous, it made aircraft control difficult etc. Poor Airbus actually had to go back and re-engineer more ‘feel’ back into the design…but of course, this feel was all artificial and the aircraft didn’t need it to function. Today, virtually all aeroplanes (including interceptors like the F-22) are fly-by-wire with little or no ‘feel’ and a new generation of pilots has evolved entirely at ease with the new order. Of course it means heavy reliance on instruments etc. but these aeroplanes are capable of much more than their obsolete forebears.

I can’t help feeling there’s a parallel here with the world of cars. First to creep in was the ‘electronic throttle’ which eliminated the throttle cable in many cars. Then came ‘brake-by-wire’ (SBC??) and ‘steering-by-wire’ (EPS?). For now they may be a little crude but I’m not in any doubt that that is where the future lies. Of course ‘feel’ will be one of the early casualties. But as happened with aircraft, a new generation of drivers will evolve entirely at ease with the new order. They will have to rely heavily on instruments et al but their cars will capable of much more than their obsolete forebears.

So guys, SBC may not be the past, whether it’s been rested on the E-class AMGs or not. I predict it is purely a matter of time before it makes a reappearance along with advanced EPS and other ’fly-by-wire’ systems (Airmatics ??). By then AMG might be comfortable enough in its skin to have renamed the 5.5 TT the E55…and this wonder will blitz the Nurburgring in well under 8 minutes… without ‘feel’...!
Brgds

e500slr

But see this is the issue, when you cpmlicate things they start to break, it's become as though every other day a person has an Airmatic failure on this forum. I'm astonished on how my daily driver hasn't dumped yet. Same with steer by wire or brake by wire, if something did go wrong, and when they are initiately adopted this is inevetable, the consequences could be severe, now I'm not going to be a guinea pig for some stupid system they think is going to some how make life easier. Like I said if something works, stick to it, make things as less complicated as they can be.

It's also not just complication, it's compatibility, when you can't upgrade systems due to them being proprietary it limits options and that is bad especially when you know the cars are being bought by enthusiasts looking to upgrade. AMGs are purchased by young people now, I know this because 99% of the AMGs I've seen are bought by under 35s, Mercedes isn't what it used to be, it's not an old mans car anymore, the company has to adapt to that. I know on the new cars the chassis is better and the handling etc etc but it bugs me they decided to wreck the W211 with SBC.

Das Geld 2

Your basing your numbers of a video game?

Das Geld 2

Really?

220S

Ford pickup trucks are purchased by Latinos wearing yellow baseball caps now. I know this because 99% of the Ford pickup trucks I've seen are bought by Latinos wearing yellow baseball caps.

j/k.... Sorry, I couldn't help it. But perception and statistics are two very different animals.

With the heavy depreciation of older AMGs, you will see younger drivers in the cars. That's inevitable. And also the C Class demographic is a bit different, closer to the M3 demographic. When it comes to the demographics of new car buyers, things are a bit different. The stats are available from R.L.Polk, the auto industry data leader.

But you're right it has attracted younger drivers, from age 54 to age 51. "The brand is also is attracting younger customers. The median age of buyers has dropped to 51, from 54 three years ago."

OK55

e500slr,
I understand your concern...indeed, I've experienced the ‘red screen of airmatic death’ a few times and had to change my front struts, rear air springs, and airmatic compressor. This notwithstanding, the march of technology is inexorable. Just think; forty years ago, who would ever have thought that sports cars would run without side draft Dellorto carburettors? I clearly remember that not only were the initial electronic fuel injection systems unreliable (BMW 732i circa1978) they also, in many cases produced less power - the Ferrari Berlinetta Boxer BB512, the Lamborghini Countach, Ferrari 308 GTB all lost power on conversion to fuel injection in the early 80’s. And if my memory serves me right, the gains in fuel economy were not that much either. Still, vehicle manufacturers knew where the future lay, and stuck with it…and today virtually all cars have reliable electronic fuel injection systems.


Worry not. In time, reliable SBC, EPS, and other ‘control-by-wire’ systems will evolve. In my experience, once the software is cracked (as it inevitably will!) electronically controlled vehicles are relatively easy to tune e.g. witness how much power a simple tune liberates on the C63. This time suspension, brakes, steering, transmission and virtually everything else will be easy to tune electronically to generate whatever characteristics are desired. The interesting parallel in the aircraft world is how, to reduce conversion training costs, flight characteristics on most Airbus aircraft are tuned electronically to be similar.

So, I say we should grin and bear these ‘development’ costs while AMG and Mercedes evolve towards this Nirvana where, with little more than a Philips screw driver, you can turn your SL280 into an SL65 AMG Black Series…!
Brgds

Okey

http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/king-of-the-ring-bmw-m5-mb-e55-audi-rs6-jaguar-s-type-r-lotus-carlton.67745/

I see two 'ring times for the E55k here; 8 min 01 sec and 7min 44.963 secs. The E60 BMW m5 was quicker but in this test the E55k beat the RS6, Jaguar S-type R and the Lotus Carlton.

BagMan

I don't see how 7:44 is possible. Nissan Gtr is 7:43. Pagani zonda 7:44. SLS 7:44. CTS-v 7:59

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...eife_lap_times

e500slr

Are you seriously posting times that have been set on a video game??

Okey

Oops, just realized its a gamers' thing...and these guys write so realistically...! I'd actually wondered about the times, so just decided to put them up for comments. rofl!

MindBend

Check out Radical SR8 for serious times.

HeissRod

Fix.T

Richardmozis

Those 8:50 times must be for the w210 E55.

My old w203 C55 was 8:22 in Sport Auto, I'd expect the W211 E55 to be only a few seconds slower maybe

Bigtickets

Ye of little faith...I have run my car at many tracks and have had great success. Car setup is critical for eeking every bit out of these heavy beasts. There is no doubt that they are hard on tires and brakes, but you have to pay to play. I can't stand being like everybody else at the track with Porsches and BMW's. It's very cool showing up with a big Merc sleeper...especially after the first session. They aren't coming up to see what you are carrying in the trunk I assure you.