Intercooler Pump you didn't know about
04-21-2014, 03:10 PM
#127
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R170 99SLK230 + SLK32
I managed to get the CWA50 pump running in PWM mode and cycled it up through the revs.
For those in possession of one - I'm using an Arduino with a $2 1k Pot on it's analogue input and a $0.30 NPN transistor hooked up to one of the Arduino PWM outputs to the pump.
On this same Arduino I have in/out temps for air from a 15m3/min electric leaf blower ;>) and in/out temps for water into and out of my SLK32 IC. Also in line is a pulse water flow meter and a pump discharge pressure transmitter.
Gathering data for log mean temps (LMdT) v kW IC heat removal for various flow rates.
Will keep you posted when I'm confident of the systems calibration and the resulting numbers.
PS - I'm using hot water in and ambient (cold) air in as opposed to hot air in ex the SC and cold water in. So sort of in reverse, but hoping the thermodynamics are reversible - to some extent. Once sorted, I hope to fit it all to the car and get some real world readings and logs, but things don't usually move quickly in my world - too many projects. PSS - I have a spare front HX coming in the mail as well.
Fun Fun fun....sort of.....
For those in possession of one - I'm using an Arduino with a $2 1k Pot on it's analogue input and a $0.30 NPN transistor hooked up to one of the Arduino PWM outputs to the pump.
On this same Arduino I have in/out temps for air from a 15m3/min electric leaf blower ;>) and in/out temps for water into and out of my SLK32 IC. Also in line is a pulse water flow meter and a pump discharge pressure transmitter.
Gathering data for log mean temps (LMdT) v kW IC heat removal for various flow rates.
Will keep you posted when I'm confident of the systems calibration and the resulting numbers.
PS - I'm using hot water in and ambient (cold) air in as opposed to hot air in ex the SC and cold water in. So sort of in reverse, but hoping the thermodynamics are reversible - to some extent. Once sorted, I hope to fit it all to the car and get some real world readings and logs, but things don't usually move quickly in my world - too many projects. PSS - I have a spare front HX coming in the mail as well.
Fun Fun fun....sort of.....
04-22-2014, 03:15 PM
#128
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R170 99SLK230 + SLK32
I read in one of Nicks previous posts that the CWA50 was a 6,000rpm pump. Can that be confirmed? If it is 6000 rpm - it really is a beautiful piece of work - very very quiet - you cant even hear it - and hardly even gets warm.
I fed it with 16V yesterday - but it doesn't change flow rate on these pumps - the pump only lowers its amperage draw to still pull ~50-60W. With other pumps (and ignition booster systems) adding a voltage booster can lead to enhanced flow/spark - not in this case unfortunately.
I fed it with 16V yesterday - but it doesn't change flow rate on these pumps - the pump only lowers its amperage draw to still pull ~50-60W. With other pumps (and ignition booster systems) adding a voltage booster can lead to enhanced flow/spark - not in this case unfortunately.
04-22-2014, 05:53 PM
#129
MBWorld Fanatic!
Great work Billy Bob, looking forwards to seeing your results.
That 6000 rpm figure came from here:
https://plus.google.com/photos/11180...85571629096571
That 6000 rpm figure came from here:
https://plus.google.com/photos/11180...85571629096571
04-29-2014, 09:50 PM
#130
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Almost anything with 4 wheels
Two pumps in series
Is flow data comparing the results of one vs two pumps in series listed somewhere in this thread (or another one). That isn't what I have seen with two of them. In series it was only around a 20% increase as I recall. Voltage boosting one pump made a bigger difference (but still not 50%).
Less costly and simpler to just run the ZL1 Camaro, TechAFX or other similar pump.
Less costly and simpler to just run the ZL1 Camaro, TechAFX or other similar pump.
04-30-2014, 03:13 PM
#131
MBWorld Fanatic!
See post 126 above. Altenatively you may be thinking of the thread in my signature.
The improvement from two pumps in series is difficult to predict, as it depends how the pump is matched to the system.
The degree to which you eliminate the air from the system is also a large and unpredictable variable.
In the most simple case, you'd expect a second pump to add 26% flow. That's the cube root of two.
However, if the double configuration moves the pump away from its optimium operating point (where the pressure-flow product is at its maximum) then the improvement will be less.
If you get more than 26%, its because the system curve is too steep, and a single pump doesn't generate enough pressure for the system on its own.
Nick
The improvement from two pumps in series is difficult to predict, as it depends how the pump is matched to the system.
The degree to which you eliminate the air from the system is also a large and unpredictable variable.
In the most simple case, you'd expect a second pump to add 26% flow. That's the cube root of two.
However, if the double configuration moves the pump away from its optimium operating point (where the pressure-flow product is at its maximum) then the improvement will be less.
If you get more than 26%, its because the system curve is too steep, and a single pump doesn't generate enough pressure for the system on its own.
Nick
Last edited by Welwynnick; 04-30-2014 at 03:16 PM.
05-01-2014, 03:23 PM
#132
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R170 99SLK230 + SLK32
using the chart I posted in 126 and using the system curve "estimated for convenience" the flow from using 2 Bosch 022010 in series versus a single 022010 would increase from 13lpm to 18lpm or ~ a 40% improvement.
As nick says, the final outcome would depend on the system curve.
Apologies but I've been tied up putting in a new cedar ceiling in the house ....another project, but will get back to my rig asap. The front HX has arrived, so I'm set to develop some "system curve" numbers. Of course these are for an SLK32 setup, but some simple calcs should allow some extrapolation that all may find useful.
The SL55 uses a similar setup. Although the IC is about 20% longer. All they could plumb into the valley of a engine which is 110mm longer.
b22b
As nick says, the final outcome would depend on the system curve.
Apologies but I've been tied up putting in a new cedar ceiling in the house ....another project, but will get back to my rig asap. The front HX has arrived, so I'm set to develop some "system curve" numbers. Of course these are for an SLK32 setup, but some simple calcs should allow some extrapolation that all may find useful.
The SL55 uses a similar setup. Although the IC is about 20% longer. All they could plumb into the valley of a engine which is 110mm longer.
b22b
05-03-2014, 10:50 AM
#133
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Almost anything with 4 wheels
Combined pumps
Thanks. I hadn't see anyone post actual test data of the two combined and the pressure and flow.
The Bosch pump's rated flow is 1200 or 1400 lph depending on the model being used and I believe that is at 0.4 bar. Most of these systems are running much more restriction than that so the Bosch pump is running fairly far down the flow/pressure curve.
I was just trying to point out that it isn't usually 50% in real world systems since you are in the higher differential pressure areas of the flow curve so getting 20% (or 25%) more flow is more likely. Adding a second pump may not be a very efficient way of achieving more flow in these situations (and you now have two things to fail instead of one with reduced likely hood of noticing if one has stopped working).
The Bosch pump's rated flow is 1200 or 1400 lph depending on the model being used and I believe that is at 0.4 bar. Most of these systems are running much more restriction than that so the Bosch pump is running fairly far down the flow/pressure curve.
I was just trying to point out that it isn't usually 50% in real world systems since you are in the higher differential pressure areas of the flow curve so getting 20% (or 25%) more flow is more likely. Adding a second pump may not be a very efficient way of achieving more flow in these situations (and you now have two things to fail instead of one with reduced likely hood of noticing if one has stopped working).
See post 126 above. Altenatively you may be thinking of the thread in my signature.
The improvement from two pumps in series is difficult to predict, as it depends how the pump is matched to the system.
The degree to which you eliminate the air from the system is also a large and unpredictable variable.
In the most simple case, you'd expect a second pump to add 26% flow. That's the cube root of two.
However, if the double configuration moves the pump away from its optimium operating point (where the pressure-flow product is at its maximum) then the improvement will be less.
If you get more than 26%, its because the system curve is too steep, and a single pump doesn't generate enough pressure for the system on its own.
Nick
The improvement from two pumps in series is difficult to predict, as it depends how the pump is matched to the system.
The degree to which you eliminate the air from the system is also a large and unpredictable variable.
In the most simple case, you'd expect a second pump to add 26% flow. That's the cube root of two.
However, if the double configuration moves the pump away from its optimium operating point (where the pressure-flow product is at its maximum) then the improvement will be less.
If you get more than 26%, its because the system curve is too steep, and a single pump doesn't generate enough pressure for the system on its own.
Nick
05-03-2014, 12:10 PM
#134
MBWorld Fanatic!
Adding a second pump isn't too bad (though it would indeed make it difficult to diagnose a single pump failure).
When you add a second pump, you're effectively doubling the pumping power (though it isn't as simple as that).
Increasing the flow is difficult. If you want to double the flow, you need more pumping pressure - FOUR times as much, if everything else is unchanged. That's because with fluids, dynamic pressure is always proportional to velocity SQUARED. The useful output power that the pump delivers is equal to pressure times flow, so doubling the flow requires EIGHT times the pumping power. And that's if the pump is operating at its normal operating point, or "sweet spot".
For centrifugal pumps, the normal operating point is usually at around half the open pipe flow rate, and 80% of max pressure. That's where the pump is designed to be most efficient, and where the pressure/flow product is at its peak.
Interestingly, you can simply take the flow in litres per second and multiply that by pressure in kPa, and you will get the hydraulic power in watts. If you have a really big circulation pump that did 30 lpm (0.5 lps) x 100 kPa, that equals 50 hydraulic watts. That will need at least 100 electric watts; pumps are 50% efficient at the very best. At the other end of the scale, a Johnson CM30 might only pump 10 lpm at 30 kPa. This equates to 5W output, which is tiny.
Nick
When you add a second pump, you're effectively doubling the pumping power (though it isn't as simple as that).
Increasing the flow is difficult. If you want to double the flow, you need more pumping pressure - FOUR times as much, if everything else is unchanged. That's because with fluids, dynamic pressure is always proportional to velocity SQUARED. The useful output power that the pump delivers is equal to pressure times flow, so doubling the flow requires EIGHT times the pumping power. And that's if the pump is operating at its normal operating point, or "sweet spot".
For centrifugal pumps, the normal operating point is usually at around half the open pipe flow rate, and 80% of max pressure. That's where the pump is designed to be most efficient, and where the pressure/flow product is at its peak.
Interestingly, you can simply take the flow in litres per second and multiply that by pressure in kPa, and you will get the hydraulic power in watts. If you have a really big circulation pump that did 30 lpm (0.5 lps) x 100 kPa, that equals 50 hydraulic watts. That will need at least 100 electric watts; pumps are 50% efficient at the very best. At the other end of the scale, a Johnson CM30 might only pump 10 lpm at 30 kPa. This equates to 5W output, which is tiny.
Nick
09-13-2014, 03:36 PM
#137
Senior Member
well i just ordered a bosch 010 from ebay. installed my elm327 with torque pro app and my IAT were crazy high. its 65 degrees here today and within two miles of leaving the house they were over 100 degrees and i didnt even get on the throttle! had a feeling i wasnt getting full power. will see how she runs when the new pump arrives and i slap it in.
06-12-2015, 07:32 PM
#139
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R170 99SLK230 + SLK32
make sure after installing the pump you purge all air from the Supercharger cooling circuit. Otherwise your pump will just sit there free wheeling due to air in the IC.
You need to open the Radiator reservoir cap and clamp the hot side of the IC hose (to the Heat Exchanger).
I sometime use a bottle to observe better - see attach.
You need to open the Radiator reservoir cap and clamp the hot side of the IC hose (to the Heat Exchanger).
I sometime use a bottle to observe better - see attach.
06-13-2015, 04:25 PM
#141
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R170 99SLK230 + SLK32
see my earlier post #117 here...
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...ml#post6004110
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...ml#post6004110
06-13-2015, 05:58 PM
#142
Super Member
make sure after installing the pump you purge all air from the Supercharger cooling circuit. Otherwise your pump will just sit there free wheeling due to air in the IC.
You need to open the Radiator reservoir cap and clamp the hot side of the IC hose (to the Heat Exchanger).
I sometime use a bottle to observe better - see attach.
You need to open the Radiator reservoir cap and clamp the hot side of the IC hose (to the Heat Exchanger).
I sometime use a bottle to observe better - see attach.
08-20-2015, 01:09 PM
#143
Senior Member
Some Numbers i just found on my "IC Intercooler Update" Project:
CWA50 is used in MANY VW/Audi/BMW Cars, part numbers are:
Audi Partnumber: 8K0965567
Pierburg: 7.06033.15.0 but seen it with different numbers then "06033".
BMW Partnumber 11517566335
Pierburg: 7.06033.16.0 but seen it with different numbers then "06033".
VW 7P0965567
Pierburg: 7.06033.31.0 but seen it with different numbers then "06033".
All are confirmed CWA50 Pumps an can be bought for a few $ as they where used on the VW/Audi TFSI 2.0L Engines ... i just bought one for 50€ on ebay.
I will change my setup to 3 intercoolers: The large W220 S55 AMG Cooler, the C32 Cooler behind the bumper and another W220 400CDI Cooler in the left wheelhouse. i will place to pumps in series somewhere between the coolers ... hopefully this will get my charged air a little cooler then 80° Celsius
greetings, Fabian
CWA50 is used in MANY VW/Audi/BMW Cars, part numbers are:
Audi Partnumber: 8K0965567
Pierburg: 7.06033.15.0 but seen it with different numbers then "06033".
BMW Partnumber 11517566335
Pierburg: 7.06033.16.0 but seen it with different numbers then "06033".
VW 7P0965567
Pierburg: 7.06033.31.0 but seen it with different numbers then "06033".
All are confirmed CWA50 Pumps an can be bought for a few $ as they where used on the VW/Audi TFSI 2.0L Engines ... i just bought one for 50€ on ebay.
I will change my setup to 3 intercoolers: The large W220 S55 AMG Cooler, the C32 Cooler behind the bumper and another W220 400CDI Cooler in the left wheelhouse. i will place to pumps in series somewhere between the coolers ... hopefully this will get my charged air a little cooler then 80° Celsius
greetings, Fabian
08-21-2015, 04:41 AM
#145
Senior Member
oh sorry 
i have a w210 with w220 S55 Engine and SL65 Gearbox. my last dyno run was 600.2ps and 920nm torque.
dyno was at renntech germany.
besides other mods i have a 172mm crankshaft pulley and HAD a 85mm Supercharger Pulley on a "0280" charger. i now changed to 87.5mm Superchargerpulley and still have 0.99bar pressure max. With the 85mm pulley i also had something around 1bar.
next step definitivly is to get cooler air
greetings, Fabian
i have a w210 with w220 S55 Engine and SL65 Gearbox. my last dyno run was 600.2ps and 920nm torque.
dyno was at renntech germany. besides other mods i have a 172mm crankshaft pulley and HAD a 85mm Supercharger Pulley on a "0280" charger. i now changed to 87.5mm Superchargerpulley and still have 0.99bar pressure max. With the 85mm pulley i also had something around 1bar.
next step definitivly is to get cooler air
greetings, Fabian
08-21-2015, 02:06 PM
#146
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R170 99SLK230 + SLK32
Have you considered the Killer Chiller hooked off your air con circuit?
It is reportedly excellent for short to meadium runs....maybe not hill climbs or autocross.
Over at the Chrysler SRT6 forum (same car as the R170 SLK32 - different body /w 17-20psi modded), some have made the switch after maxing out their heat exchanger ideas.
But this may pose a problem for you with all the HX's as the KC really needs you to disconnect the HX's (unless you get snow in winter). During nrmal running when the IC discharge water temps arent climbing, they can exit the IC lower than ambient....but with the HX still in circuit, it can warm your cooled water up to ambient.....So your nice 10degC KC cooled water can warm back up to 20 or 25...wasting the effort.
The other trick they have found with the KC is you need thermal inertia to store your nice cold water for when you really need it. They install an insulated 2-3 litre tank in place of the HX behind the bumper. At 12Lpm on the cooling water pump, you'll get about 30 seconds worth of sub ambient water. That should get you from 0-150mph...;>)
PS - the garret IC in the E170 SLK32 is becoming the weak link in this equation, because even though you're feeding it with 10degC water - under WOT IAT's are still in the 30-40C region.
It is reportedly excellent for short to meadium runs....maybe not hill climbs or autocross.
Over at the Chrysler SRT6 forum (same car as the R170 SLK32 - different body /w 17-20psi modded), some have made the switch after maxing out their heat exchanger ideas.
But this may pose a problem for you with all the HX's as the KC really needs you to disconnect the HX's (unless you get snow in winter). During nrmal running when the IC discharge water temps arent climbing, they can exit the IC lower than ambient....but with the HX still in circuit, it can warm your cooled water up to ambient.....So your nice 10degC KC cooled water can warm back up to 20 or 25...wasting the effort.
The other trick they have found with the KC is you need thermal inertia to store your nice cold water for when you really need it. They install an insulated 2-3 litre tank in place of the HX behind the bumper. At 12Lpm on the cooling water pump, you'll get about 30 seconds worth of sub ambient water. That should get you from 0-150mph...;>)
PS - the garret IC in the E170 SLK32 is becoming the weak link in this equation, because even though you're feeding it with 10degC water - under WOT IAT's are still in the 30-40C region.
08-21-2015, 02:56 PM
#147
Intercooler Pump you didn't know about
Could use KC and keep the heat exchanger, by using a solenoid valve to bypass the heat exchanger. Then would need some simple circuit to control when to bypass.
08-23-2015, 04:07 AM
#148
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R170 99SLK230 + SLK32
Yes - that's a tricky one with just 1 solenoid (for "simplicity").
First of all you'd need an ambient temp (or use the CPU's) +
an IC out temp +
an electronic circuit to activate your HX solenoid relay....
.....the KC and HX would have to be installed in parallel.....otherwise you're looking at a three way valve.
a) HX valve closed when when IC out Temp is < ambient
b) open when IC out Temp is > ambient + some arbitrary number like +2degC for deadband (avoid quick on/off)
Balancing the relative losses from each of these parallel paths would require another valve or (restrictor of some sort) to balance the flow between the two )KC+HX) when in the HX valve is open and the 2 systems are running in parallel. Of course your flow rates are going to change between the 2 duties as well.....All pretty tricky and would need some serious design (or many trial and errors?) in the end.
For valve options - I started looking at the paired solenoid passenger climate control valves on the R170 as they're built for such a hot water job. You'd then get 2 valves....(almost the same as a three way) - but obviously bulkier - fitting it all in with the temp probe/s and circuit board etc....was getting tricky...too hard for my capability/motivation.
Couldnt find any cheap enough though - ie: in the $20 range.
But if you can crack this particular chestnut you might get some repeat orders...
First of all you'd need an ambient temp (or use the CPU's) +
an IC out temp +
an electronic circuit to activate your HX solenoid relay....
.....the KC and HX would have to be installed in parallel.....otherwise you're looking at a three way valve.
a) HX valve closed when when IC out Temp is < ambient
b) open when IC out Temp is > ambient + some arbitrary number like +2degC for deadband (avoid quick on/off)
Balancing the relative losses from each of these parallel paths would require another valve or (restrictor of some sort) to balance the flow between the two )KC+HX) when in the HX valve is open and the 2 systems are running in parallel. Of course your flow rates are going to change between the 2 duties as well.....All pretty tricky and would need some serious design (or many trial and errors?) in the end.
For valve options - I started looking at the paired solenoid passenger climate control valves on the R170 as they're built for such a hot water job. You'd then get 2 valves....(almost the same as a three way) - but obviously bulkier - fitting it all in with the temp probe/s and circuit board etc....was getting tricky...too hard for my capability/motivation.
Couldnt find any cheap enough though - ie: in the $20 range.
But if you can crack this particular chestnut you might get some repeat orders...
11-10-2015, 05:21 PM
#149
I think I'm due for a new IC pump, the Johnson CM30 only lasted about 13K miles. Is the Pierburg worth the price? What are you guys using?
My current cooling mods are Johnson CM30, split cooling, belt wrap kit, matched with 172mm pulley, Buckhead tune and one step colder spark-plugs (NGK-LFR7AIX)
My current cooling mods are Johnson CM30, split cooling, belt wrap kit, matched with 172mm pulley, Buckhead tune and one step colder spark-plugs (NGK-LFR7AIX)
11-10-2015, 08:43 PM
#150
Super Member
I think I'm due for a new IC pump, the Johnson CM30 only lasted about 13K miles. Is the Pierburg worth the price? What are you guys using?
My current cooling mods are Johnson CM30, split cooling, belt wrap kit, matched with 172mm pulley, Buckhead tune and one step colder spark-plugs (NGK-LFR7AIX)
My current cooling mods are Johnson CM30, split cooling, belt wrap kit, matched with 172mm pulley, Buckhead tune and one step colder spark-plugs (NGK-LFR7AIX)
I went with the Bosch 010 and have seen pretty stable temps. Plus it was easy to source.
