Mitch Detailed

So I got tired of looking and made my own... it's not 100% complete, but it's a very healthy 95%, if anyone would like to help fill in the gaps of the other 5%, i'm all ears.

Here's a link to the PDF.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iba6pa6mma...inout.pdf?dl=0

Enjoy

nafania

Thank You. Was looking for that.

shardul

iTrader: (1)

good info. Thx

TheTherapist

Not that I need it but nice to know it's there. Thanks for sharing.

BC928

This is good info. The understanding (or limitations?) of the ecu is one of the reasons the platform is held back.

Mitch Detailed

I agree, im trying to break through some of the challenges we face

e500slr

I don't know much about the ECU side of the car but would some of the short comings be solved if you were to run a 5.5 NA or 500 NA M113 ECU with an FSP? As I understand it, one of the issues with FSP was that the car is looking for a clutch, so given that the NA AMG ECU and 500 ECU wouldn't, would that be better. Again, I'm thinking out loud, I could have just said the dumbest thing ever but I'm just throwing it out there. By the way answer the question disregarding "you can't just put another ECU, it's tied to the ignition, the key and all that". Forget that, just talk about the ECU itself and would it be better. I know Kleemann make an SC for the NA motors so obviously their ECUs can take an SC.

Mitch Detailed

I don't know what the
acronym FSP stands for, so I cannot answer your question. But as for the ecu. All me2.8 ecus will have the same hardware. Whether those features are lockable, unlocked, and open is beyond my knowledge since I've never dealt with the back end of a me2.8

Mitch Detailed

I don't know what the
acronym FSP stands for, so I cannot answer your question. But as for the ecu. All me2.8 ecus will have the same hardware. Whether those features are lockable, unlocked, and open is beyond my knowledge since I've never dealt with the back end of a me2.8

JoeNobody

FSP is Fixed Supercharger Pulley, it's missing the clutch and is always spinning the supercharger.

latemodel21

I know that the V6 me 2.8s that I've opened are not "fully loaded", so I'm not sure if I'd assume that "All [other] me2.8 ecus will have the same hardware" ...

I tried printing your doc so I could use it as a worksheet to add missing info, but I can't seem to print more than the first page ...

useful thread btw ... good idea

Cheers,
Chris

e500slr

FSP, as the person above said, means Fixed Supercharger Pulley. The stock SC pulley is on a clutch but now there are pulleys that are basically solid and the SC is running all the time, it's ALOT more responsive, alot more basic and reliable I would imagine and negatively impacts fuel economy. Now people who have installed FSPs have had tuning issues. I think one of their problems is trying to trick the ECU into thinking there's a clutch still present because there have been hickups. I think that's because the ECU in the E55 and all the Kompressor cars have that "clutch" parameter there. So the question was, would it easier if the ECU was from an NA on a car with an FSP so the ECU wouldn't be looking for a clutch. I mean, can't all ECUs technically be tuned for forced induction?

Also, how hard is it to take something like a Haltech ECU and adapt it fully to the W211, you know, get the ESP working, the cluster, all the factory features (not the immobilizer, disregard that) and while also being standalone? Those aftermarket ECUs have more than enough capability to do all of these things, it's just the integration that's hard.

Mitch Detailed

My understanding is simply run a resistor on the clutch circuit to prevent electronic issues. Aside from that. I wouldn't know what variables control the clutch, although id suspect it to have a load x rpm table for on and off.

You're on my trail of what im gonna do. I plan to put a haltech elite 2500 into my benz. I went to their elite training seminar 6 weeks ago at their headquarters. They've simplified some parameters for parallel integration (crank and cam triggering). As for standalone integration, defining can bus id's is where ot gets confusing. Proefi, infinity and motec m1 are the 3 only ecus I know of that allow can bus definition (and im going on what other people say about proefi's capabilities with canbus channel id) and since we have 2 drive by wire circuits, most ecu's don't have the hardware support for it.

I contacted aem last year and they said the needed a buy in of 20 people before starting r&d, and followed up
with nevermind.
So I choose the bypass route.

Its really a matter of hooking up the sensor inputs properly. Adding coolant and intake air temperature sensors(you can't tap into them due to how they read)

Im sure I'll be rescaling some sensors to aid supporting more boost from the oem limits, etc. Itll take some work and understanding. All in all it comes with time testing and analysis of data

e500slr

Well, you definitely sound serious and know alot more than most about this. It seems complicated.

The only reason I mentioned the NA ECU is because Kleemann make a blower for the NA cars and so obviously the NA ECU can be tuned for forced induction but may not have things like that 17 psi limit thing and what not. Again, I DO NOT KNOW I'M TALKING ABOUT I just have a general idea.

JoeNobody

I've thought of the same Frankenstein ideas, only for hacking V12TT ecu to be used for turbo M113K. Both engines were very similar architecture, so in theory it could work (but at likely huge hacking expense)

e500slr

Yh but what I'm thinking of isn't really a problem. Disregard the VIN-tied ECU for a second. We're talking about the same engine, just different internals, heads and compression. So the ECU controlling them is pretty much the same except the NA one is a MAF and the Kompressor is a MAP and the clutch thing. Now I'm not talking about putting the 55 supercharger on an NA motor. I'm talking about using the NA ECU with a full E55 engine BUT with a fixed supercharger pulley which would eliminate the clutch issue and having to use a resistor and still having hiccups. Also, I don't think the NA ECU has that 17 psi limit thing. I am I missing something here, someone correct me if I'm misinformed.

Mitch Detailed

It may, but W211 e55's have 2 drive by wire butterfly valves in comparison to one. Leaving me with the question of, if there is a hardware difference between the clutch switch between the models, then what about the sc bypass valve?.

Additionally, what exactly is causing the hiccups? Is it lean misfiring from ppor accel enrichment derivative of expecting the sc clutch to kick on/off, etc.? And why can't the map sensor be rescaled to accommodate an aftermarket map sensor capable of reaching higher limits, what is the map sensor signal voltage limit? Etc.
And then im still restricted to what inputs and outputs the oem system has.

whipplem104

I have to say there is some good thinking outside the box ideas here. Just so many variables that are not known. 1st off n/a ecus do use map as well. There are still plausible values for everything and especially in relation to each other. For instance you can not have high tps value and low load via air mass or map. This is a logic error and would be treated as such. Getting around logic errors can take a massive amount of time. It is not as simple as make this and that sensor read something that is ok.
I do not know what Kleemann does these days but they use to just put a boost a pump on and rising rate fuel pressure reg and ramp fuel pressure to the moon.
I guess the point is that you have to try and see what walls you run into, but expect more than a few.
I think that at the end of the day if you want standalone ecu and full function of the car you simply need to invest in a M1 from Motec and a M1 build license and write the firmware so it works. Huge investment if you pay someone else to do it but it has the capabilities to work like factory. The only thing that I would not be certain about is if the ignition switch would get upset about not having the DAS response from the ME. But I think that it does not care from the testing that I have done.

whipplem104

By the way here is a snippet of the CAN bus. There is some stuff that would not normally be there but you can get the idea of how much is going on. This is just C can. So not interior stuff just engine, traction, transmission, etc. to make the car move.
;
; Message Number
; | Time Offset (ms)
; | | Type
; | | | ID (hex)
; | | | | Data Length Code
; | | | | | Data Bytes (hex) ...
; | | | | | |
;---+-- ----+---- --+-- ----+--- + -+ -- -- -- -- -- -- --
1) 0.1 Rx 0312 8 27 E7 1F FF 0E 3D 48 0B
2) 0.9 Rx 0212 8 02 A0 85 FF A8 0B 08 38
3) 1.1 Rx 0358 8 00 33 00 00 00 00 00 00
4) 1.4 Rx 0428 7 32 00 FF 03 78 00 00
5) 3.4 Rx 0230 1 05
6) 3.6 Rx 023F 1 00
7) 5.9 Rx 03FF 6 00 00 68 2A 00 00
8) 7.9 Rx 0308 8 00 02 DA 00 00 8F FF FF
9) 8.1 Rx 0236 8 10 09 10 00 14 FF FF 8A
10) 8.4 Rx 1FA00080 8 02 DA 00 00 00 00 00 00
11) 8.8 Rx 0239 2 00 00
12) 9.4 Rx 0200 8 00 28 C0 00 C0 00 C0 00
13) 9.7 Rx 0208 8 00 20 6F FF C0 00 C0 00
14) 9.9 Rx 0215 7 00 00 74 4C 73 C9 00
15) 10.1 Rx 0312 8 27 E7 1F FF 0E 3D 48 0B
16) 13.6 Rx 0230 1 05
17) 15.1 Rx 00200080 8 02 DA 00 00 00 00 00 00
18) 15.4 Rx 00200100 8 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
19) 15.7 Rx 00200200 8 00 00 00 84 00 04 04 00
20) 16.0 Rx 00200180 8 FF C0 98 40 CB C0 43 00
21) 16.3 Rx 00200280 8 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
22) 16.6 Rx 00200300 8 6C 00 00 00 00 00 73 5E
23) 16.9 Rx 00200380 8 00 04 00 00 80 80 04 80
24) 17.2 Rx 00200400 8 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 FF
25) 17.4 Rx 0218 8 00 00 11 00 03 00 00 00
26) 17.7 Rx 0418 8 31 00 00 00 11 00 00 00
27) 17.9 Rx 0308 8 00 02 DA 40 01 8F FF FF
28) 18.2 Rx 0236 8 10 09 10 00 24 FF FF A2
29) 18.4 Rx 0445 6 3A FF 6F FF 00 64
30) 18.7 Rx 1FA00080 8 02 DA 00 00 00 00 00 00
31) 18.9 Rx 0248 8 00 00 00 00 00 00 45 00
32) 19.2 Rx 0210 8 00 00 00 00 00 00 7B 00
33) 19.4 Rx 0315 6 59 03 FF 0F 00 91
34) 19.6 Rx 0300 8 00 80 1F FF 88 0B 7F FF
35) 19.8 Rx 0325 7 00 07 0A F3 4E E1 FF
36) 20.0 Rx 0312 8 47 E7 1F FF 0E 3C 48 0B
37) 20.3 Rx 0328 8 03 FF 7D 00 00 00 DE 46
38) 20.6 Rx 0330 8 FC FC FC FD FF FF FF 7B
39) 20.8 Rx 0410 8 00 10 00 00 00 00 00 00
40) 21.0 Rx 0212 8 02 A0 89 FF 68 0B 08 38
41) 21.3 Rx 0358 8 00 33 00 00 00 00 00 00
42) 21.5 Rx 0428 7 32 00 FF 03 78 00 00
43) 23.8 Rx 0230 1 05
44) 26.8 Rx 0101 4 04 00 E6 E7
45) 27.9 Rx 0308 8 00 02 DE 00 01 8F FF FF
46) 28.1 Rx 0236 8 10 09 10 00 34 FF FF B

Mitch Detailed

What's das? Lol

And for the map sensor ceiling, itd be fairly easy to set up an arduino to limit the scale from reaching the ceiling.. This would only work for parallel ecu installations but it'd prevent limp mode.

Motec m1 is appealing, but the price drives me away. Itd be like 6k before defining CAN id's, and that's not cheap or easy to do. My lack of experience on CAN development is another issue... Lol

And I wouldn't ever use or recommend a rising rate system. Entirely wrong way to increase fueling

whipplem104

DAS is Drive authorization system.

Like I said it is not just necessarily putting a map clamp in. Yes you could do that. But then again go back and say you make another 100 lb/ft of torque or 2-300/lb/ft of torque by adding more boost. How is that going to be accounted for in the tq calculations. You just clamped it to a fixed value that is way lower than you are going to be making.
No up to a certain point you are going to get away with it but at a certain point you are going to start running into problems with transmissions etc.
Just fyi the limit for plausible tq to the transmission is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500nm engine tq. I do not tune factory transmission control units but I would say that there are maps for pressures etc for under this value. There are of course other limits below this number but that is when they through a code for implausible engine tq from the CAN bus.
Honestly I do not know what will happen with a piggy back system in reality with the ecu and what the ecu will generate for tq. What will it think timing is? What will it think of misfire calculations. It really depends on what it was programmed to do of course. But if it sees a engine acceleration rates that deviate from what it thinks they should be on firing events + or - it will set a misfire fault. But if it cannot shut an injector off what will it do.
Will be interesting to see though.

Mitch Detailed

It will think ignition timing is working properly so long as misfiring isn't occurring. The way an ecu detects a misfire is through the crankshaft position sensor signal. There will be load resistors on both the ignition and injector circuits. Fueling will need to be near the oem closed loop target. Open loop it can be whatever you prefer / what the engine wants.

I don't know enough about transmissions and how pump pressure factors into tq capabilities. But if the engine is at light load, both ecu's will understand this, the load variable will remain fairly constant... If rescaling the map sensor is required to run more boost, do be it. Both ecu's will know that its under heavy load.

It really opens up the abilities to control things the oem ecu simply can't /won't.

BC928

Any more CAN bus development?

Mitch Detailed

Slowly working on it. Im now to the point of starting to pull bus modules and generating bus information with my computer to determine what information is a response query, and what pgn's are coming from what nodes. 41 pgn id's total on the bus ive found so far.

BC928

Thanks. As you clearly know, this is the hurdle for an aftermarket standalone or even a real piggy back. The das can turn features on and off- you just need to o tell the ecu it's there or not there.

We will need this info when the car's electronics start going bad from pure age.