BerndV

A TCU tune doesn't exist that will fix this problem. Nobody, and I mean nobody, has been able to crack the Bosch encryption for the TCU. These intermittent "lag" problems all originate from the TCU limiting the fun in the first three gears. These turbo engines produce so much torque relative to any NA cars from the past that something had to be done to protect the drive train from endless warranty claims and the resulting customer dissatisfaction. The faster that wet clutch locks up relative to mashing the pedal in lower gears, the greater the shock that is transmitted to the drive train. The torque multiplication in gears 1-3 is therefore limited by the algorithm in the TCU that monitors dozens of variables.

The car I owned previous to my current 2016 E63 was a 2014 E550 4MATIC. The E550 produces less HP and torque and has a torque converter. The combination of less torque and a torque converter (which delivers torque with greater smoothness and less shock) means that the TCU in the E550 can come equipped from the factory with a much less aggressive algorithm for drive train protection. Therefore, as I experienced when transitioning from the E550 to the E63, certain driving conditions resulted in more pronounced lag or delay when flooring the throttle pedal.

The solution for this problem with the turbo AMG cars is a standalone ECU. Speedriven has been developing this very product in conjunction with an ECU manufacturer in Europe for close to two years now. It is now available for M279 powered AMG's and will be alpha-tested this coming winter in the M157. However, you will lose your cruise control, so there is a compromise that comes with the standalone ECU. Also, be prepared to spend $$$ to strengthen the transmission at a minimum, and you will need strengthening of everything else between the transmission and the wheels if you start adding bigger turbos.

This TCU "problem" is the reason the AMS Alpha 9 is only 0.1 seconds quicker in the quarter than the Alpha 7. It is also the reason the Alpha 9 is also slower than the Alpha 7 from 0-60. Without a standalone ECU or a complete bypass of the factory EMS, you can install bigger turbos, stronger rods and pistons, and all the ancillary performance modifications you care to throw at this car and will only gain an edge in roll-on half mile or one mile passes, which is a pretty useless improvement outside of the realm of YouTube video hits and ego inflation.

If you choose not to go the standalone ECU route when it becomes available, the best mods for this car in descending order of importance are:

1) ECU Tune; pick your poison, Renntech, Alpha, and Speedriven are probably the top choices. Tunes are not rocket science, HP and torque improvements are contingent on how much the tuner wants to push the numbers. The "lesser" tunes will often result in more daily driver satisfaction because they don't push the TCU as much.

2) Improved intake volumetric efficiency i.e. AMS carbon intake system, Renntech carbon intake system (IMO the AMS is a better design).

3) Improved intercooler performance i.e. full AMS turbo cooler system. This is especially important if you track the car, make repeated 1/4 mile passes, or operate daily in a hot climate. The resultant heat soak kills performance in turbo cars.

5) Replacement transmission pan that improves fluid capacity and cooling. High transmission fluid temps are one of the variables that the TCU algorithm monitors. My preference is the Speedriven billet pan because the Weistech is cast aluminum. One crack from a rock and your MCT is toast.

5) Catless down pipes that retain the factory crossmember. Contrary to what most aftermarket exhaust sales pitches would have you believe, the factory exhaust breathes extremely well. With factory turbos, most of the improvement with aftermarket down pipes comes from weight reduction. Don't even think about a turbo back pipe if you are retaining the factory turbos unless you enjoy throwing your money away.

6) Replacing the exhaust resonator with an H pipe configuration along with lighter and better breathing mufflers. Almost zero HP difference here with factory turbos but you get more weight reduction and a properly designed H pipe will prevent drone. Again, the AMS exhaust with either their mufflers or the Renntech's would be good depending on your aural preferences.

After that, it is all about weight reduction. Lithium Ion batteries are an easy weight reducer i.e. Braille lithium Ions. This and exhaust are the first mods amateur motorcycle road racers like myself make for relatively dramatic weight reduction on liter bikes that start at over five hundred pounds dry. After replacing the two batteries with lithium ions, be prepared to start dropping big money for bespoke carbon, magnesium, aluminum, and titanium parts.

efiftyfizzle

Good write up. Is it possible to do a standalone tcu only?

Also, didn't the E55 have a Bosch tcu and weren't the torque limiters raised/removed by tuners in those cars?

kponti

Yes the E55 does and yes it was cracked.

However to OP, I believe the TCU has been cracked (GAD) however not available stateside. I remember you had to ship your TCU in the E55 to get it tuned. I believe that is one of the things that hampers tuning it for the 7speed is the location. I also remember reading somewhere that the trans has to be dropped to get the TCU out. Kinda of a bummer for most like me who just want to drive it daily and not squeeze every last 10th of a second from it.
However the dealerships "tune" the TCUs all the time without accessing the actual unit (like they do the ECUs). And by tune, I mean they flash different software on the TCU via OBD port. From what I have read, that is the block, for aftermarket tuners to be able to use that same access to reflash a TCU tune via OBD.
German guy who came to Weistec, tapped a wire going to the trans and plugged into the OBD and was able to modify parameters on the TCU. There might be something there (which means you have to have the car at whatever shop can do this, but that's still better than nothing that we have now).

BerndV

One of the most significant tuning differences between MB/AMG and other German brands like BMW is the inability to modify the ECU/TCU programming via the OBD port. My M series BMW buddies can all have dozens of different maps and software loaded on their phones or tablets and switch countless parameters at will with a few taps of their fingers.

kponti

With Mboot loaded, a whole world of tuning opportunities open up

PeterUbers

So how can bmw's drivetrain tolerate the tcu mods and benz' cannot? I keep hearing that the mct tcu is locked down So as not to reduce its life with more aggressive throttle response

proxygeek

There is no problem in my humble opinion. I think the performance numbers on these cars prove there isn't a problem. I do think there is more performance to be had from the M157 but I think the real solution there is a proper DCT or a revised MCT that's on par with a good DCT (BMW). A good tune can squash any perceivable lag due to increasing throttle response. Even though that's not what you're talking about, it can really fool you into believing the lag you're talking about is gone. I had my Wife's Porsche Cayenne Turbo tuned and experienced this first hand. I didn't tune its shift points but the timing and throttle response adjustments gave it the sensation that the Tiptronic was less laggy. Of course, FVD Brombacher has a Tiptronic tune for the Cayenne Turbo that does adjust shift points to make them more aggressive, but I would start with a tune for your car if you haven't done so already. I own a 2016 E63 S AMG 4 Matic as well and I'm about to go with AMS.

I just think there is a point when a tinkerer should stop tinkering. There are mechanical and design limitations that don't make the cost to benefit even out. So it comes down to until a better design comes out, it's often wiser to just wait. I don't know many people who would want to spend ridiculous amounts of money on beefing up their transmission's and buying piggyback electronics just to make the transmission feel less "laggy". There has to be enough people that want that to commence development.

What I always find amazing too is how people think they know more than the German engineer's who designed and built these cars do. These cars are technological marvels and there's always more to be had, but not everything should be tweaked or modified. The E 63 S has been out 3 years now and while a TCU mod might come out, I'm not sure the cost to benefit is worth it.

BerndV

Personally, I don't want to lose the cruise control in my daily driver. The parts I have acquired for my car, all of which will be installed this winter when the car is in storage, include the following:

1)Speedriven billet trans pan (already installed as I like to do a break-in trans service at 5k)

2)AMS CF intake system and full intercooler w/reservoir

3)RADO catless downpipes (just ordered)

4)AMS exhaust w/H pipe

5)ECU will happen over the winter, undecided on tuner

6)Lithium Ion batteries

That will be it for a few years. This car is my daily driver spring through late fall and I won't compromise on reliability. A daily driver that can do 0-60 in under 3.0 seconds, the quarter mile in the 10's and is totally reliable is enough for me at the present time. When the warranty is out I will probably buy a facelifted AMG S Class coupe for a daily non-winter driver (the last of the teenagers will be off to college) and keep the E63 for a full tilt build to include standalone ECU, full drivetrain, engine internals, turbos, etc. By then, all the development on these types of modifications will be fully mature.

BerndV

From what I've been told by Hartmut Feyhl at Renntech and Marcin at Speedriven (their tech whiz), the existing (GAD) TCU mods are workarounds, not actual software updates. However, this whole TCU realm seems to be very nebulous because nobody can hack the code and Bosch has apparently made it virtually NSA proof in it's current iteration. When a MB dealer updates software in the TCU , they have no capability to "read" any code in the TCU. The updates occur via end-to-end encryption. However, a custom standalone ECU apparently solves the problem because it can communicate false data to the TCU and therefore "fool" it into being less intrusive.

proxygeek

I'm not sure the E63 will get a proper twin shaft DCT, I'm thinking it will likely be a revised MCT. I seem to be one of the few around here that loves the MCT, most people don't like it. I think you have to adjust to it, learn to drive to its characteristics and on it's terms, and then it's fine. I don't have any trouble with it, perhaps this is because my car is a 2016 and I have heard there have been software updates since the 2014 cars came out. I don't think it's unreasonable to want a high 10s E63, they can certainly run that. I just think you get yourself into a money pit and by the time all of the matured modifications come out, you can buy a better, faster, and much improved car. Understandably not every new car is better, so if you find the W212 to be the sweet spot, then more power to you (pun intended . There are things like the interior lights the new car will have that I want in time. I leased my car for 3 years and now I am glad I did.

efiftyfizzle

I came from a GTR and it had similar throttle lag as the E63 does. The GTR isn't as bad as the e63 but the transmission is much clunkier, so it may be the trade off in this technology. I've never driven a PDK or BMW DCT, can someone verify those?

BerndV

The ZF PDK is the finest performance automatic transmission in a production car at the moment. However, I personally love the MCT in the E63 and have no complaints. The fact that MB manufactures their own transmissions instead of buying them from ZF or Getrag is something else that sets MB apart from the rest of the German (and Italian) manufacturers.

PeterUbers

I've gotten so used to the mct and learning how to drive that with sprintbooster that it's kinda a non issue for me now

proxygeek

Absolutely. I'm so sick of hearing DCT this and DCT that I'm ready to puke. Everyone acts like the MCT is a piece of crap yet the numbers it lays down are incredible.

You hit the nail on the head, people just need to learn to accept the MCT on its term's. If you can adapt to the MCT, it's a great transmission. I had another tech tell me yesterday it's a different mechanical design but it's still DCT (single shaft instead of two). I know people will go back and forth about this, but if it's dual clutch shifting it's dual clutch shifting. According to that MB Scottsdale article you posted, MCT is still releasing one gear while biting another simultaneously. Not sure how it could do 100ms shifts if it wasn't. It may be getting dated and old, but it's still a wicked transmission. PDK is the best DCT in the world in my opinion.

proxygeek

+1

looney100

Peter, would you recommend the Sprintbooster? I've heard of strange things happening with such devices.

PeterUbers

Strange things can happen like operational problems with traction control and esc but they all resolve when you remove the booster. These are rare problems and the car goes into limp mode if anything happens

I would strongly recommend the booster... I love it

PeterUbers

I agree -- it's like knowing how to drive a manual vs standard auto, this is a different trans as wel and knowing your car and how it drives is the key to being both safe and enjoying it

When it was new to me it drove me nuts but with sprintbooster it's a comfy daily driver

I appreciate your insight and perspective

AHI

Amazing thread. Been awhile since I've learned something here.

OP, what is your opinion on and X pipe instead of H?

Zod

But with regards to the TCU, the none USA tuned cars have yet to match for example GAD in running times and going by your logic of alpha 9 is no faster than an alpha 7 because of the TCU. It makes no sense to then to claim no one has cracked the TCU or has a work around.

BerndV

The primary purpose of the resonator in the stock exhaust is to manipulate and thus tune the primary and secondary harmonics that are produced naturally as a byproduct of exhaust pulses. The result, when well engineered, is a pleasing exhaust note without unwanted resonance in the cabin as well as the ability to utilize significantly less restrictive mufflers without the concomitant increase in exhaust noise.

If developed properly while accounting for all of the pertinent variables, H vs X are probably roughly equivalent. The primary benefit of deleting the factory resonator is weight reduction, not reduced back pressure. Much of what is in the blogosphere regarding this subject as well as many others is uninformed nonsense and marketing hype. A really well made X pipe is clearly more difficult to manufacture than a H pipe. In combination with different mufflers, the aural result will be subtly different between H and X as well as between different X pipe designs. An X pipe produces more exhaust flow bleed between left and right whereas an H is merely a resonance tuning device. In the end, from a performance perspective, a well designed X vs H on a dyno with all other variables held constant is probably irrelevant on a two ton sedan. The performance difference between driving the car on a full tank of gas vs a quarter tank is more dramatic.

BerndV

Re-read what I posted. Workarounds exist, true reprogramming of the TCU's embedded software does not.

kponti

Interesting..... Makes sense though. Dealer techs usually do not need to know what's happening, just update if required for the particular issue at hand.

However, even a workaround imo will be good enough. Just fool the ecu into not limiting torque. At the end, this is a over 4000lb sedan and will never be a racecar for most people (myself especially included). I am thinking of a work around like a piggyback ecu operates.
JB piggybacks are still relevant in the BMW world even after the ecu was cracked. Stacking is used to push the envelope more in addition to the ecu flashing.
So I think a work around maybe in the form of a piggyback ecu for the tcu might be great for the MCT of that's how it shapes up.

BerndV

If you can wait a year, IMO the Speedriven standalone ECU will be the solution everyone has been looking for assuming you don't mind losing your cruise control. The cruise control lever is used to toggle between different performance maps which appear on the information display between the tachometer and the speedometer.

kponti

I think it's less about the ability of the Benz to tolerate drive train shock than an all around combination of things MB was tuning for when the programming of the tcu was done.
Traction in this car is one of the most I have experienced in a rwd ever considering over 500ft/lbs stock. Even more impressive is the fact that it's not a smoldering heap of burned rubber even with over 700ft/lb at the wheel and traction control "fully disabled"
Part of the tcu algorithm is designed to improve traction imo.
All AMGs in recent decade or more have had some sort of torque limiting algorithm in their tcus. I think it's just how MB chooses to save the drive train, increase traction, etc etc and not just that the MCT cannot handle more.

Tuned M5s with Dodson or one other brand clutch packs sometimes have serious traction issues at Freeway speeds. Even the piggyback ecu tuned ones can spin the tires like crazy compared to tuned M157s. All this at "only" 22psi