Zod

well i wrote it above. This might help

Here is an article with lots of examples
http://dsportmag.com/the-tech/twin-s...-great-divide/

Amg63-

but the current model still has 1.5 litre displacement more.

The question is once both are tuned, what has the bigger advanatge for more low end torque, the 5.5 vs 4.0 or the twin scroll setup on the 4.0?

notatroll

+1 This. I'm wondering how twin scroll benefits in real world and in aftermarket tuning.

gaspam

front great, interior great, side view great, rear end not so great... vid in post #7 exhaust sounds like its got an old rusty exhaust with leak

gaspam

in that article is says its getting wet clutch (same as we have)

A nine-speed automatic is standard (we can’t imagine it could ever want for more gear ratios), and the transmission eschews a torque converter in favor of a wet starting clutch

gaspam

now this is interesting and good news... that could be a game changer! I might be able to deal with the poopie pants rear-end for TS turbos

Zod

The current M5 is twin scroll. Last i checked they are making big power tuned from less dismantlement, but that is an other argument as that is tuner related debate on what they can do tuning wise vs others.

Amg63-

oh sorry. I thought it meant it's receiving a torque converter instead of wet clutch. Confusing on the wording.

Amg63-

i think it's just this torque limit on m157 bottlenecking it.

With full ecu tune on m157 vs s63tu I think if they can take full advantage of m157 it would be making more power with tune than m5.

M5 anyways still not close to our torque just more horsepower and that's with our current tunes that are less progressed than m5 tunes. I think if we can get to same tuning level as m5 we would make more whp as well

another thing, m5 has turbos that are also 32% larger than those in the m157. The new e63, not sure if it has bigger turbos or not but that would certainly help
make up for displacement difference.

But again, even with bigger turbos on m5, the 1.1 litre displacement still gives m157 the torque advantage over m5 despite its twin scroll setup and 32% larger turbo advantage.

The new motor on e63 on the one hand is still at a disadvantage of 1.5 less displacement but maybe it can overcome that with newer technology. It's hard to say

gaspam

higher turbine efficiency, lower cylinder temps and EGTs which allow more aggressive timing and fuel mapping, and the ability to run more overlap...

in general you see roughly about 20% more hp in the meat of the powerband with twin scroll over single... so for our current tuned M157's that would equate to jumping from 600whp @ 5K rpm to 720 whp

twin scroll is a big part of the reason the BMW M5 4.4L motor is making 850whp on turbo swaps

notatroll

Thanks for the great info guys!

gaspam

torque is only limited in the lower gears on the M157... when we are dyno'ing in 4th/5th gear you arent really hitting any trq limits so WHP numbers arent really affected by it and BMW tuned WHP numbers are killing ours with the exception of vasily's one off build

alextaylor29

All,

Sorry I've been away for awhile (had an E55 AMG) is there any concern on the E going down to a 4.0L TT vs. the old 5.5L TT? Looking to move into an E63 soon, so wasn't sure if the old adage, "There is no replacement for displacement" still applied here.

I know with the E63 5.5L TT, with just a tune you can get it to 700 HP and 830 ft/lb at crank. (Quoting Alpha tuning here). Not sure if the 4.0 TT motor could handle that?

Thanks and good to be back.

Alex

PeterUbers

some interesting thoughts in this

https://mbworld.org/forums/w212-amg/...iturbo-v8.html

some c63S guys are having issues with their tuned 4.0L engines but not sure if that's just because the engine is so new or these are case by case issues

dont follow the gts forums enough to know if those guys are having tune issues

otakki

I'm sure the old adage still applies. Some have already noticed the higher power and lower weight but still the same number as the W212 63S.

I have noticed some sites have mentioned the new transmission as dual-clutch. I think that was a mistake.

Amg63-

hasnt the m157 with turbo upgrades reached
over 900whp?

also once torque limits are removed, wouldn't m157 be able to make more power than m5 on both stock and upgraded turbos?

alextaylor29

Gotcha, makes sense thanks to you both. I recall when the 6.3L Motor came out on the C63 they had a headbolt issue that could cause vapor lock, so this could be one of those situations given the 4.0L TT is new.


I believe the 5.5L TT is fairly, "Bullet proof" from a tuning perspective so my approach might be going with a low mileage 2012 - 2014 E63 for now.


Thank you both again.


Alex

gaspam

with just a turbo kit and exhuast... nope, not even close.... renntech kit puts about 700 whp, ams turbo kit about 680whp, weistec W3 about 660 whp

the new weistec W4 saw one vid at 830 whp on race gas and havent seen anything since on that kit and its not available to public yet (btw i think that W4 car was the one that just ran 165mph in CA shift sector last weekend where the 850whp M5 ran 171mph)

only M157 over 850 whp that i have seen is Vasily's custom beast and that is way beyond just a turbo upgrade

PeterUbers

I think you are spot on. The m157 is safe and reliable and tuned engines are doing great. Just replace your plugs every 10k miles. Also the new e63S will have teething issues with the new transmission and the new engine for certain along with all the electronic bugs and gremlins

good luck in the search, lots of great 2014-2016 e63's out there

kponti

I think the 4.0 in the C63 has a single scroll turbo unlike the twin version.

Also I think due to the smaller displacement etc etc, the W213 E63 will have similar or very very little increase in RWHP than the current M157, but will still beat the M157 on a hwy roll (stock for stock)

Amg63-

what if we compare tuned m157 to tuned m5 both running on pump gas?

for m5 to hit 850whp it's not just upgraded turbos and nothing else. I'm assuming it also needs meth injection to get there?

but on just pump gas on stock turbos and tune isn't m5 running much less torque?

I thought its along the lines of e63 at 620awhp/750awtq and m5 at 650rwhp/570rwtq?

once going into upgraded turbos it looks like m5 has the major edge, but also requires dct being upgraded to handle all the torque while MCT doesn't need it

but im more curious about how they compare on stock turbos because MOST people are not ever going as far as upgrading the turbos on m157 or s63tu anyway.

Amg63-

i agree with this. Also once both are tuned, I think whp will be very close but m157 might be making much more torque.

A tuned for tuned roll race might go to m157.

But I think if new e63 can transfer all power to rear wheels in roll race then it still might win even with less torque.

notatroll

Torque is not as important when doing roll racing. Is that not right?

TMC M5

I would rephrase and say low-end torque isn't as important in a roll race as you are not falling far enough down in the rev range during a roll race. But torque itself is important as it correlates the horsepower output at a certain RPM.

gaspam

stock turbo S63tu M5s are running 720whp @6K rpm on pump gas, stock exhaust (no downpipe upgrade)

twin scroll > single scroll .... they can keep their HP for about another 1000 rpm over our M157.... broader powerband makes a big difference