Dual clutch transmission charactoristics
11-27-2016, 08:30 AM
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2016 Mercedes AMG GTS 2015 Corvette Z06 2001 Ferrari 360 Spyder 2007 Mercedes SL550
Dual clutch transmission charactoristics
I have an AMG GTS. The transmission does not function like an automatic transmission when pulling off the line and at very low speeds. I'm guessing this is normal but just want to verify. The transmission engagement has some variability-sometimes can be a little "grabby". More likely if i am not smooth with the accelerator. Infinitely better than the F-1 trans in my Ferrari 360 but not as smooth as an automatic trans.The service manager at the dealer said this was normal. Is this typical for both the AMG GTS as well as for other cars with DCT like Ferrari, Lamborghini and Porsche.
11-27-2016, 01:47 PM
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2016 Mercedes AMG GTS 2015 Corvette Z06 2001 Ferrari 360 Spyder 2007 Mercedes SL550
Do thread page views include people who are not registered? I'm amazed that at 45 page views, there are no replies with a question any owner of an AMG GTS or other DCT car could comment on.
11-27-2016, 01:50 PM
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2014 E63S; AMS 100 octane ecu tune; edok tcu tune; BB intakes; dyno tuned
This is TOTALLY normal for both mct and dct and well discussed and lamented at times
With mct or dct its a win lose ....win for performance and lose for daily driving; the torque converter in a traditional auto trans is what makes driving so smooth at low speeds and not grabby/jerky but also what robs the drivetrain of maximal power output to the wheels
even hyundai owners feel same characteristics
https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=exTEL9QbZ8g
With mct or dct its a win lose ....win for performance and lose for daily driving; the torque converter in a traditional auto trans is what makes driving so smooth at low speeds and not grabby/jerky but also what robs the drivetrain of maximal power output to the wheels
even hyundai owners feel same characteristics
https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=exTEL9QbZ8g
Last edited by PeterUbers; 11-27-2016 at 01:58 PM.
11-27-2016, 02:19 PM
#4
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Just as an FYI, I had the MTC adapted last week and now it is almost as smooth as a 2015 PDK in my 911.
I will discuss with my advisor about doing the same thing to the GTS and my 2015 E63s wagon, because the 2016 MTC is now pretty close to prefect; grabby and smooth, no bucking.
Granted I have not taken it to the track yet...
I will discuss with my advisor about doing the same thing to the GTS and my 2015 E63s wagon, because the 2016 MTC is now pretty close to prefect; grabby and smooth, no bucking.
Granted I have not taken it to the track yet...
11-27-2016, 03:24 PM
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2016 Mercedes AMG GTS 2015 Corvette Z06 2001 Ferrari 360 Spyder 2007 Mercedes SL550
I have no bucking at all. Not sure I would be real pleased with a car that did. Do the DTC Ferraris and Lambos do that?
11-27-2016, 03:33 PM
#6
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It happens on all the benz transmissions with the clutch pack torque converter system. Have the adaptation reset, see if it improves. Most likely it's trying to be as smooth as possible when you are taking off slowly, and these automated clutch systems just don't do that good of a job at soft smooth takeoff as a true automatic torque converter can.
11-27-2016, 03:47 PM
#7
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Now you want to compare a $150k with a $300k+ car? I truly do not think it s a fair comparison...but my 458 Italia was a dream, but then I think that it 458 has the best gear box I have driven.
As it stands today my 2016 MTC shifts "better" (more precise and definitive) than my GTs, but it is my opinion.
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11-27-2016, 03:53 PM
#8
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It happens on all the benz transmissions with the clutch pack torque converter system. Have the adaptation reset, see if it improves. Most likely it's trying to be as smooth as possible when you are taking off slowly, and these automated clutch systems just don't do that good of a job at soft smooth takeoff as a true automatic torque converter can.
11-27-2016, 04:26 PM
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2022 AMG SL63
I have an AMG GTS. The transmission does not function like an automatic transmission when pulling off the line and at very low speeds. I'm guessing this is normal but just want to verify. The transmission engagement has some variability-sometimes can be a little "grabby". More likely if i am not smooth with the accelerator. Infinitely better than the F-1 trans in my Ferrari 360 but not as smooth as an automatic trans.The service manager at the dealer said this was normal. Is this typical for both the AMG GTS as well as for other cars with DCT like Ferrari, Lamborghini and Porsche.
11-27-2016, 04:32 PM
#10
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Just because someone viewed the thread doesn't mean they own the GTS. Some of us browse threads for models other than what we own to learn, curiosity, or multiple other reasons. Got it boss?
11-29-2016, 10:42 AM
#11
For me, the transmission is pretty awesome. Sail mode works surprisingly well when in comfort mode. However, the following two shift can drive me nuts too...
The transition from 3rd to 4th gear in manual mode. If the RPMs are high, this shift is smooth, if the RPMs are low, this shift sounds like the transmission is wanting to hurt itself.
The transition from 2nd to 1st gear in any mode is sometimes clunky. Like when rolling up to a stoplight.
The transition from 3rd to 4th gear in manual mode. If the RPMs are high, this shift is smooth, if the RPMs are low, this shift sounds like the transmission is wanting to hurt itself.
The transition from 2nd to 1st gear in any mode is sometimes clunky. Like when rolling up to a stoplight.
11-29-2016, 01:13 PM
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2016 Mercedes AMG GTS 2015 Corvette Z06 2001 Ferrari 360 Spyder 2007 Mercedes SL550
I must be lucky. My AMG GTS shifts very smoothly at all times. Only clutch engagement shows any variability
11-29-2016, 02:20 PM
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2020 Audi R8 V10, 2016 AMG GTS, 2018 E63S Edition 1, 2018 Porsche GTS Cab, 2012 C63 BS
There seems to be a lot of blending here with the posts about the trannys that Benz has. Our GTS's have dual clutch which does not have a tq converter vs the likes the MCT and traditional slush boxes. My tranny is very smooth and I run sport plus all the time. Yes there is a bit of engagement at a dig but that's expected since, in reality, its a manual with no left pedal. But while rolling and up and down shifting the car is very fluid even at increased speeds.
11-29-2016, 02:39 PM
#14
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There seems to be a lot of blending here with the posts about the trannys that Benz has. Our GTS's have dual clutch which does not have a tq converter vs the likes the MCT and traditional slush boxes. My tranny is very smooth and I run sport plus all the time. Yes there is a bit of engagement at a dig but that's expected since, in reality, its a manual with no left pedal. But while rolling and up and down shifting the car is very fluid even at increased speeds.
11-29-2016, 06:04 PM
#15
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There seems to be a lot of blending here with the posts about the trannys that Benz has. Our GTS's have dual clutch which does not have a tq converter vs the likes the MCT and traditional slush boxes. My tranny is very smooth and I run sport plus all the time. Yes there is a bit of engagement at a dig but that's expected since, in reality, its a manual with no left pedal. But while rolling and up and down shifting the car is very fluid even at increased speeds.
There is just no reliable way to get the clutch takeup perfect every time. As it wears, the fluid wears, temperature changes, it all affects the friction available vs. desired, and results in differing levels of engagement for a given amount of pressure. The car uses learned adaptations to try and be as close to designed engagement time as possible, but it's only so much it can do. Porsche does seem to have the PDK system dialed in more than the rest of the manufacturers, but that's a dual-clutch design and different architecture.
But in general, the TRANSMISSION is not the culprit, it's the torque converter/clutch pack. We do get failed 2nd and 3rd gear frictions from time to time on new cars, but if you have a serious delay between gears, take it to the dealer. If it just feels a little non-smooth, try altering your driving style for a couple days and see what happens.
AMG cars are designed to work on a track, not be ultra-smooth in traffic. There are base, non-AMG models that are much more suited for that, and the trade-off is less performance when you want to kick the car around.
Last edited by ItalianJoe1; 12-02-2016 at 01:23 AM. Reason: Removed incorrect information
11-29-2016, 06:41 PM
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2020 Audi R8 V10, 2016 AMG GTS, 2018 E63S Edition 1, 2018 Porsche GTS Cab, 2012 C63 BS
They call it dual clutch, but it's the same 722.9 stuffed into a transaxle design.
It has a wet clutch pack in place of a torque converter, as all the AMG Speedshift transmissions do. You can't lump MCT and non-MCT transmissions, as the MCT has the wet clutch, and the non-amg cars without the MCT system use a traditional fluid torque converter.
There is just no reliable way to get the clutch takeup perfect every time. As it wears, the fluid wears, temperature changes, it all affects the friction available vs. desired, and results in differing levels of engagement for a given amount of pressure. The car uses learned adaptations to try and be as close to designed engagement time as possible, but it's only so much it can do. Porsche does seem to have the PDK system dialed in more than the rest of the manufacturers, but that's a dual-clutch design and different architecture.
But in general, the TRANSMISSION is not the culprit, it's the torque converter/clutch pack. We do get failed 2nd and 3rd gear frictions from time to time on new cars, but if you have a serious delay between gears, take it to the dealer. If it just feels a little non-smooth, try altering your driving style for a couple days and see what happens.
AMG cars are designed to work on a track, not be ultra-smooth in traffic. There are base, non-AMG models that are much more suited for that, and the trade-off is less performance when you want to kick the car around.
It has a wet clutch pack in place of a torque converter, as all the AMG Speedshift transmissions do. You can't lump MCT and non-MCT transmissions, as the MCT has the wet clutch, and the non-amg cars without the MCT system use a traditional fluid torque converter.
There is just no reliable way to get the clutch takeup perfect every time. As it wears, the fluid wears, temperature changes, it all affects the friction available vs. desired, and results in differing levels of engagement for a given amount of pressure. The car uses learned adaptations to try and be as close to designed engagement time as possible, but it's only so much it can do. Porsche does seem to have the PDK system dialed in more than the rest of the manufacturers, but that's a dual-clutch design and different architecture.
But in general, the TRANSMISSION is not the culprit, it's the torque converter/clutch pack. We do get failed 2nd and 3rd gear frictions from time to time on new cars, but if you have a serious delay between gears, take it to the dealer. If it just feels a little non-smooth, try altering your driving style for a couple days and see what happens.
AMG cars are designed to work on a track, not be ultra-smooth in traffic. There are base, non-AMG models that are much more suited for that, and the trade-off is less performance when you want to kick the car around.
Separate discussion but...
Is the GTS transmission more efficient than the MCT? I mean in regards to crank hp vs wheel hp and drivetrain loss?
And my bad, I lumped the MCT with the traditional Benz trannies and I knew that was not correct LOL.
Last edited by Vic55; 11-30-2016 at 10:45 AM.
11-29-2016, 10:52 PM
#17
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There seems to be a lot of blending here with the posts about the trannys that Benz has. Our GTS's have dual clutch which does not have a tq converter vs the likes the MCT and traditional slush boxes. My tranny is very smooth and I run sport plus all the time. Yes there is a bit of engagement at a dig but that's expected since, in reality, its a manual with no left pedal. But while rolling and up and down shifting the car is very fluid even at increased speeds.
I do completely agree that these cars are not designed to drink a "Martini on the rocks, not stirred" on the way back from work but the adaptation has transformed my 2016 E63s wagon.
11-30-2016, 09:10 PM
#18
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In theory, a transaxle design is more efficient than a separate trans and diff, so I would assume yes, but I have no facts to support that thought. It's essentially the same components, and the MCT is very efficient once the clutch is locked, so if there is a gain I'd bet it's small.
12-01-2016, 04:05 PM
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In theory, a transaxle design is more efficient than a separate trans and diff, so I would assume yes, but I have no facts to support that thought. It's essentially the same components, and the MCT is very efficient once the clutch is locked, so if there is a gain I'd bet it's small.
So the Benz "DCT" in the GTS does not operate or have the same components as, lets say, my Turbo S PDK, Lambo Huracan, or my BMW F10 M5?
Why did I think the GTS had true dual clutch mechanics?
12-01-2016, 04:29 PM
#20
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I thought it had a true DCT also? hmm. Disappointing actually if not, wonder if the GTR will have a DCT.
12-01-2016, 06:36 PM
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I'm guessing the AMG version is probably similar in design then, but I personally haven't looked into it. It must be FAR stronger, so it doesn't have any shared components I would guess. But maybe they just stuffed a full DCT in the back, it's possible.
The CLA DCT drives like complete garbage, and nowhere near as well as an AMG MCT trans or a GT, so I assumed it was the other version.
Last edited by ItalianJoe1; 12-02-2016 at 01:25 AM.
12-01-2016, 07:20 PM
#23
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check this video (you need to scroll to find it) https://vimeo.com/152288405 a direct comparison between MCT (wet clutch) and DCT (transaxle).
Plus other tech videos
Plus other tech videos
Last edited by Astolfo; 12-01-2016 at 07:29 PM.
12-01-2016, 07:21 PM
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AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
They call it dual clutch, but it's the same 722.9 stuffed into a transaxle design.
It has a wet clutch pack in place of a torque converter, as all the AMG Speedshift transmissions do. You can't lump MCT and non-MCT transmissions, as the MCT has the wet clutch, and the non-amg cars without the MCT system use a traditional fluid torque converter.
It has a wet clutch pack in place of a torque converter, as all the AMG Speedshift transmissions do. You can't lump MCT and non-MCT transmissions, as the MCT has the wet clutch, and the non-amg cars without the MCT system use a traditional fluid torque converter.
This is not a Mercedes transmission (like the 722.9) but build by Getrag and more or less the updated version of the SLS DCT with improved software.
12-01-2016, 08:39 PM
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That would make more sense but then again I don't have the intel. I just know that the transmission clearly performs better than my 5 previous MCT's.
