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AMG GTR brakes failure - Mercedes refuses warranty

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AMG GTR brakes failure - Mercedes refuses warranty

 
Old 01-03-2019, 02:06 PM
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That's nuts OP, glad you're OK.
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Old 01-03-2019, 02:16 PM
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You guys are hard core! I don't have the ***** to do what you all are doing.

I'm assuming you're writing a letter with supporting documentation of your experience to MB to appeal the decision from your dealer.

Enjoy the car in good health or sell it and get into a GT3/RS!
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Old 01-03-2019, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by MegaLoL View Post
On race with ESP 7-8. That was my first two visits on track. After that ESP off.
In Race mode you turn ESC ‘Off’; that is the only time that Traction Control (TC) is available to change using the yellow knob on the dash. So I’m assuming that you’re confusing ESC and TC when you post “ESP 7-8”.

Regardless I wish you well with the brakes, BUT pads are a wear item that MB are not responsible for. Your brakes superheated causing huge thermal damage because for what ever reason, you allowed the pad material to essentially wear down to nothing. Hence the massive heat of what is basically bare metal on the CCM rotor, and the resultant damage, is primarily your responsibility to ensure that you don’t drive the car on a road course with such worn brake pads. I use the 1/3rd ‘rule’ that I picked up on Rennline years ago, meaning replace the brake pads on a CCM brake system when the pad is down to 1/3rd of it’s original thickness. To not do so risks placing too much heat into the rotor causing it damage and accelerates the wear rate on the brake pad tremendously; again due to increased heat production and inability to dissipate that heat.

Btw: I can’t say with 100% certainty but I believe the CCM rotors on the GT R are the same as the PCCB rotors on Porsche’s. Calipers are different though I think.

Bish
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Old 01-03-2019, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by thebishman View Post


In Race mode you turn ESC ‘Off’; that is the only time that Traction Control (TC) is available to change using the yellow knob on the dash. So I’m assuming that you’re confusing ESC and TC when you post “ESP 7-8”.

Regardless I wish you well with the brakes, BUT pads are a wear item that MB are not responsible for. Your brakes superheated causing huge thermal damage because for what ever reason, you allowed the pad material to essentially wear down to nothing. Hence the massive heat of what is basically bare metal on the CCM rotor, and the resultant damage, is primarily your responsibility to ensure that you don’t drive the car on a road course with such worn brake pads. I use the 1/3rd ‘rule’ that I picked up on Rennline years ago, meaning replace the brake pads on a CCM brake system when the pad is down to 1/3rd of it’s original thickness. To not do so risks placing too much heat into the rotor causing it damage and accelerates the wear rate on the brake pad tremendously; again due to increased heat production and inability to dissipate that heat.

Btw: I can’t say with 100% certainty but I believe the CCM rotors on the GT R are the same as the PCCB rotors on Porsche’s. Calipers are different though I think.

Bish
This!!! But in your situation if the rear insides worn to the bone while the outers still showed half, that's nuts. It had to be from running it with the ESP on

Last edited by BenzGTR; 01-03-2019 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 01-03-2019, 05:56 PM
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@ Ronin_AMG:

That was the stupidest response I've read in a long while. Don't flex your internet muscles behind your laptop. How the heck do you know how he drives or his level of experience or his track prep? The car is a full tilt track car out of the box. Lets see what real life situations are with this thing. He is here sharing his experience. He obvioulsy is a tracker and kudos for him and his budget for tracking his $200K car. He gets my respect. He is here advising us, helping us, vouching for us and warning us about his experience and the events that occured to him. Instead of 5hitting on him and his experience, show support and try to help.
Grow up and be a part of the solution.

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Old 01-03-2019, 06:25 PM
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MegaLoL respect on the 7:39 time BTG, as this is fast!!! and you definetely need good brakes to achieve sub 8min!!!

Unfortunately the Nurburgring Nordschleife uses a lot of brake pad material, due to the high speed decelerations. The Carbon Ceramic rotors don't forgive a mistake if you accidentaly finish your brake pad material.

Solution #1 Switch to iron discs as they are more forgiving. Unfortunately they weight a lot more.
Solution #2 Lukas from Renntech Germany has some upgraded brake solutions. (he adds an extra airflow passage to the front rotors)
Solution #3 Tikt Performance is working in a new front brake solution https://www.facebook.com/TiktPerformanceParts/ Not available yet, but you can go on the Dec 16th post to check their teaser video.

Hope you find the right solution, as it deserves to be pushed on the track.
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Old 01-03-2019, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by MegaLoL View Post


Around 2500.
Which tires were you on? That's exactly how many miles mine had on them before I hit the track and mine are still about half, maybe a little less. I'm an extremely fast driver.
And like Bish said, if you have the ESP still on in anyway, the rears are constantly braking one side at a time. I'd shop around and buy the parts yourself, that will cut the cost in half to whatever the dealer is quoting you.
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Old 01-03-2019, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by MegaLoL View Post


Mine also looked good. More than a half left when I was going second time on track. I do inspection every time in service after track day in every car. Beside i check every time tires, brakes when im in pit.
But interior pads wear quicker and its hard to check them when you are on track without special equipment or your own team.
How much was left on the outers on the rears? Scary. I guess we all need to start taking our wheels off and checking the inside pad after every session? That sucks!
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Old 01-03-2019, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by BenzGTR View Post
How much was left on the outers on the rears? Scary. I guess we all need to start taking our wheels off and checking the inside pad after every session? That sucks!
It really is super important to check the inner pads religiously as they do tend to wear faster, and perhaps taper more/quicker. That being said if you’ve still got at least 1/3rd thickness on the outer pad F/R, you should still be fine with the inner pad.
The shop that wrenches on my car is able to check the pad thickness when the car is on the lift and the owner always documents the width of each pad on the invoice for me.

Pads: John Gaydos at Autoquest gave me a great price on a full set of OEM pads with new sensors; around $650 iirc. Pagid does make their RSC1 pad which John told me works great on Porsche’s with their PCCB system, and is ‘rotor friendly’; not sure there are any other options currently.

Bish
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Old 01-03-2019, 09:22 PM
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There is something going on with QC with these pads. Brembo??

Great lap on the ring Mega. Kudos.

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Old 01-03-2019, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ZephyrAMG View Post
@ Ronin_AMG:

That was the stupidest response I've read in a long while. Don't flex your internet muscles behind your laptop. How the heck do you know how he drives or his level of experience or his track prep? The car is a full tilt track car out of the box. Lets see what real life situations are with this thing. He is here sharing his experience. He obvioulsy is a tracker and kudos for him and his budget for tracking his $200K car. He gets my respect. He is here advising us, helping us, vouching for us and warning us about his experience and the events that occured to him. Instead of 5hitting on him and his experience, show support and try to help.
Grow up and be a part of the solution.
Part of he solution is knowing your car before you take it to the track and proper maintenance after, knowing the braking zones and knowing how to save them for the entire race.
You don't wear out your brakes in one 8 min session ..
Stupid people run on track without checking their car before they get on track. Now that's advice everyone can learn from.
Only a fool has brakes that look like that..
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Albuht813 View Post
You guys are hard core! I don't have the ***** to do what you all are doing.

I'm assuming you're writing a letter with supporting documentation of your experience to MB to appeal the decision from your dealer.

Enjoy the car in good health or sell it and get into a GT3/RS!
I already did, but their answer is not satisfactory me at all.

I really enjoy it. In fact i prefer it to GT3 cause it's more demanding. Not that easy to drive fast like GT3 or RS.
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Old 01-04-2019, 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by thebishman View Post


In Race mode you turn ESC ‘Off’; that is the only time that Traction Control (TC) is available to change using the yellow knob on the dash. So I’m assuming that you’re confusing ESC and TC when you post “ESP 7-8”.

Regardless I wish you well with the brakes, BUT pads are a wear item that MB are not responsible for. Your brakes superheated causing huge thermal damage because for what ever reason, you allowed the pad material to essentially wear down to nothing. Hence the massive heat of what is basically bare metal on the CCM rotor, and the resultant damage, is primarily your responsibility to ensure that you don’t drive the car on a road course with such worn brake pads. I use the 1/3rd ‘rule’ that I picked up on Rennline years ago, meaning replace the brake pads on a CCM brake system when the pad is down to 1/3rd of it’s original thickness. To not do so risks placing too much heat into the rotor causing it damage and accelerates the wear rate on the brake pad tremendously; again due to increased heat production and inability to dissipate that heat.

Btw: I can’t say with 100% certainty but I believe the CCM rotors on the GT R are the same as the PCCB rotors on Porsche’s. Calipers are different though I think.

Bish

Yes i meant that i always turn off ESP. In every car. Not sport handling or PSM sport whatever it calls in different cars. Always OFF. On track when i use GTR setup is RACE and ESP off. That was my first two visits on track with this car so I did not turn off TC completely. TC (yellow knob) was set on 7 or 8. After this incident i set TC on 9. Which is in GTR completely OFF.

Wouldn't you be suprised if your new car did not give sign that pads are gettin close to end ? Car had less than 3000 miles and pads maybe 1000 when rear completely worn out ? For me it's unacceptable with track ready car especially with carbon ceramic brakes ! Furthemore i did not abuse this car lap after lap. Like i said i do one easy warm lap then max two fast laps. Third lap is a cooling down and sometimes i do another cooling. Of course in pit checking tires and brakes ! And i've been doing that since forever in every car i was driving on tracks ! And at least basic inspection in service every time after track visit. And when i checked my GTR after first visit on track, everything was looking normal, beside holes clogged in rotors. So please Bish tell me how would you check pads worn if you would have been second time on track with new car ? How would you notice inside pads gettin to the end ? That's the rear. What about front ? My fault that shields damaged rotors too ? For me it's UNACCEPTABLE with flagship model, advertised as a track car in every brochure, every Mercedes commercial, advertisement and car magazines as Porsche GT3 rival. And my local dealer who sold me this car and Mercedes Poland says that they will not cover it, cause car was used on track and this happened on track

So my question is why they sell it as a track ready, prepared for sport driving, sport experiences with optional track package and carbon ceramic brakes especially advertised as option for someone who want to use car on track. And this is what happens with their brake system and they avoid responsibility, saying that this is my FAULT. I could maybe understand if car would have 10k miles or more and was heavily abused on track. But brake sensor failure ? It's not normal no matter what mileage car has.

I don't want to sound like i'm showing off, but i really know how to drive, how to use these cars in track conditions. My lap times records prove this and i'm sure few guys from my environemnt also could say something about it. And few of them are proffesional drivers, authorities, racing drivers, ex racing drivers.

Last edited by MegaLoL; 01-04-2019 at 05:52 AM.
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Old 01-04-2019, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by BenzGTR View Post
This!!! But in your situation if the rear insides worn to the bone while the outers still showed half, that's nuts. It had to be from running it with the ESP on
ESP was off !! But regardless if ESP is ON or OFF that should not happen after 3000 miles no matter what car !

Last edited by MegaLoL; 01-04-2019 at 05:04 AM.
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Old 01-04-2019, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by NitrousVic View Post
MegaLoL respect on the 7:39 time BTG, as this is fast!!! and you definetely need good brakes to achieve sub 8min!!!

Unfortunately the Nurburgring Nordschleife uses a lot of brake pad material, due to the high speed decelerations. The Carbon Ceramic rotors don't forgive a mistake if you accidentaly finish your brake pad material.

Solution #1 Switch to iron discs as they are more forgiving. Unfortunately they weight a lot more.
Solution #2 Lukas from Renntech Germany has some upgraded brake solutions. (he adds an extra airflow passage to the front rotors)
Solution #3 Tikt Performance is working in a new front brake solution https://www.facebook.com/TiktPerformanceParts/ Not available yet, but you can go on the Dec 16th post to check their teaser video.

Hope you find the right solution, as it deserves to be pushed on the track.
Actually it's not that brakes demanding what you think. If you are not pushing hard, this track does not kill the brakes. You don't have to brake super hard and very late from high speeds. And that lap was really moderate. I was easy on brakes.

Thank you for tips.
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Old 01-04-2019, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by BenzGTR View Post
Which tires were you on? That's exactly how many miles mine had on them before I hit the track and mine are still about half, maybe a little less. I'm an extremely fast driver.
And like Bish said, if you have the ESP still on in anyway, the rears are constantly braking one side at a time. I'd shop around and buy the parts yourself, that will cut the cost in half to whatever the dealer is quoting you.
Stock Cups 2.
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Old 01-04-2019, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by thebishman View Post


It really is super important to check the inner pads religiously as they do tend to wear faster, and perhaps taper more/quicker. That being said if you’ve still got at least 1/3rd thickness on the outer pad F/R, you should still be fine with the inner pad.
The shop that wrenches on my car is able to check the pad thickness when the car is on the lift and the owner always documents the width of each pad on the invoice for me.

Pads: John Gaydos at Autoquest gave me a great price on a full set of OEM pads with new sensors; around $650 iirc. Pagid does make their RSC1 pad which John told me works great on Porsche’s with their PCCB system, and is ‘rotor friendly’; not sure there are any other options currently.

Bish
I agree, but after 3000 miles ? After this problem i use pagids. Much, much better. Stock pads are not for track conditions. Even black series ones.
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Old 01-04-2019, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by ronin amg View Post
Part of he solution is knowing your car before you take it to the track and proper maintenance after, knowing the braking zones and knowing how to save them for the entire race.
You don't wear out your brakes in one 8 min session ..
Stupid people run on track without checking their car before they get on track. Now that's advice everyone can learn from.
Only a fool has brakes that look like that..
Thank you again for your penetraring answer. I did not know that i was racing. Maybe i was a part of some kind of race and i did not know that. I will try to find out that.

I'm starting to think that thanks to you i will be a better driver

Thanks !!

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Old 01-04-2019, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by MegaLoL View Post
Great video. Thanks for your other info I really wish there was more support/information out there on these cars!

From my experience the brakes on the GTR will not take anything like that level of use. Your only options are to go easier on the brakes or get some upgrades and since your current setup is toast anyway then upgrades are really the only option.

I spoke to Renntech too about their solution but they needed the car in Germany and I didn't have the time to take it to them. I do wonder how effective it will be though, the brakes themselves are not really the problem, its the cooling. I know the Renntech option adds cooling to the front brakes but they never mentioned anything about the rears and its those which you've had the most trouble with.

Alas I've gone for perhaps the riskiest and most expensive solution of all. A GTR PRO, which I've been told will have brake cooling but I haven't seen any evidence yet to show this, which is a little concerning.





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Old 01-04-2019, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by WhiteBlack View Post
Great video. Thanks for your other info I really wish there was more support/information out there on these cars!

From my experience the brakes on the GTR will not take anything like that level of use. Your only options are to go easier on the brakes or get some upgrades and since your current setup is toast anyway then upgrades are really the only option.

I spoke to Renntech too about their solution but they needed the car in Germany and I didn't have the time to take it to them. I do wonder how effective it will be though, the brakes themselves are not really the problem, its the cooling. I know the Renntech option adds cooling to the front brakes but they never mentioned anything about the rears and its those which you've had the most trouble with.

Alas I've gone for perhaps the riskiest and most expensive solution of all. A GTR PRO, which I've been told will have brake cooling but I haven't seen any evidence yet to show this, which is a little concerning.
Yes and i was aware of that since beginning. You can see at the end of clip on last straight to bridge i immediately let go gas pedal and start cooling... And yes the cooling is the biggest issue for whole package. Not only for pads. Pads material is too weak for track use.

GTR PRO has solved cooling issue. In matter of fact AMG solved that some time ago but they could not do anything about it till GTR PRO realease. Im not the first who has brake issues. Believe me.

Im on the list for Black Series, but im not sure i want it with this experience i have with Mercedes customer department.. Altough GTR is a really really nice tool. First modern Mercedes i like a lot. More than current GT3 and i was always Porsche guy.

Last edited by MegaLoL; 01-04-2019 at 05:46 AM.
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Old 01-04-2019, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by MegaLoL View Post
GTR PRO has solved cooling issue. In matter of fact AMG solved that some time ago but they could not do anything about it till GTR PRO realease. Im not the first who has brake issues. Believe me.

Im on the list for Black Series, but im not sure i want it with this experience i have with Mercedes customer department.. Altough GTR is a really really nice tool. First modern Mercedes i like a lot. More than current GT3 and i was always Porsche guy.
I've been told it has it but some of the other information I got from senior people at AMG about the PRO turned out to be wrong so I'm still a bit concerned.

I came from GT3s too but my reason for the switch is that I couldn't get one at list. A GT that you can use like a porsche on track is all I want

I don't suppose you know a chap called Ralf do you? (Silver 991.1 GT3RS, does a bit of VLN, drives at ZV a lot) he mentioned he had a friend with a silver car who was having brake issues.



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Old 01-04-2019, 08:16 AM
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Question

How has the new GTR PRO solved the cooling problem?
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by MegaLoL View Post
Thank you again for your penetraring answer. I did not know that i was racing. Maybe i was a part of some kind of race and i did not know that. I will try to find out that.

I'm starting to think that thanks to you i will be a better driver

Thanks !!
Let's define racing, you are ether trying for a time, a time to beat or competing against other cars on a track.
Still you didn't inspect your equipment before you went to the track [race], still you are a "fool" for not doing so..
Some people are impressed because you posted a video of yourself on the ring, I'm not..
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Old 01-04-2019, 10:22 AM
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I didn't see applications for your car, but I would contact these guys if you decide to skip the carbon rotors. https://www.essexparts.com/
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:19 AM
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