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AMG GTR brakes failure - Mercedes refuses warranty

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AMG GTR brakes failure - Mercedes refuses warranty

 
Old 01-14-2019, 12:36 PM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by thebishman View Post



No. DOT 5.1 is silicone based iirc and is not recommended in our cars as it can damage the braking system.

Bish
DOT 5 is silicone based. DOT 5.1 is compatible with DOT 3 & 4.
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Old 01-14-2019, 04:30 PM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by ronin amg View Post
I only use SRF fluid since day one in my wagon and the fluid is pressure bled so their is no chance for air to enter the system.
The ABS traction control is just super aggressive on the CCBs. It works amazingly well with the 720 hp AWD of the wagon but it does cook the brakes and fluid going uphill in a 4,700 lb. wagon..
I guess I should stop videotaping Ducatis behind me in the canyons..
Trust me, it's not the SRF being "cooked" from you driving on a hill. Your brakes would catch on fire before the SRF would cook. Your pads would be toast. I tracked an E63 wagon a few times on ultra sticky A7's. Went through factory pads in two sessions. The next time they caught on fire. But no fade from the fluid. We are talking repeated, non stop braking from 140mph to 30mph over and over and over with tires 10 times stickier than your Michelin's. No street tired car on the planet could cook SRF. If your pedal gets mushy when you are going through the canyons you have a problem elsewhere.
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Old 01-14-2019, 04:45 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by BenzGTR View Post
Trust me, it's not the SRF being "cooked" from you driving on a hill. Your brakes would catch on fire before the SRF would cook. Your pads would be toast. I tracked an E63 wagon a few times on ultra sticky A7's. Went through factory pads in two sessions. The next time they caught on fire. But no fade from the fluid. We are talking repeated, non stop braking from 140mph to 30mph over and over and over with tires 10 times stickier than your Michelin's. No street tired car on the planet could cook SRF. If your pedal gets mushy when you are going through the canyons you have a problem elsewhere.
Dude you have never driven with me in the canyons and I'm super light on my brakes.

On my first test drive [50mi.] in a 2018 CCB equipped wagon through the canyons the brake pedal developed an inch extra travel due to cooked brake fluid on the uphill and downhill section...

Try doing the CCB bedding procedure recommended and tell me the pedal doesn't go soft due to the excessive heat buildup..
Traction control works the brakes hard on the uphill without you even knowing it, until you get out and smell them cooking while you scratch your head wondering when and where you were heavy on the slow pedal.

Some people drive and some people think they can drive. You are free to follow me through the canyons anytime as long as you never cross the centerline and let's see how well your brakes hold up in my world.
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Old 01-14-2019, 05:28 PM
  #129  
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1,000*C is how hot the carbon ceramic brake can get on the race track. That’s the same temperature as fresh lava flowing out of an erupting volcano. As a part of the setting process during manufacture, the carbon ceramic brake is heated to this temperature, as well. In everyday use, the temperature of the carbon ceramic brake usually never exceeds 500°C.

Castrol SRF fluid Dry Boiling Point = 312° C (594° F); Wet Boiling Point = 270° C (518° F); "DOT4"

Now 500*C brake temps are more than 312*C the dry boiling point of Castrol SRF.
With little to no cooling airflow to our brake systems it's not long before fluids begin to cook due to the traction control constantly correcting yaw..

Last edited by ronin amg; 01-14-2019 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 01-14-2019, 06:38 PM
  #130  
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Gentleman, let's continue the conversation without the name calling. Thread cleaned.
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Old 01-14-2019, 08:22 PM
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Never had an issue with my lowly steel brakes. I use cobalt race pads and SRF with Hoosier R7. Only when super hot I feel the pedal a little softer but nothing to alarming. Cooling will help definitely.



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Old 01-14-2019, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by V8ray View Post
Never had an issue with my lowly steel brakes. I use cobalt race pads and SRF with Hoosier R7. Only when super hot I feel the pedal a little softer but nothing to alarming. Cooling will help definitely.
I chose to go with the CCB setup on my wagon because I thought they would be better suited and more dependable on the 4,700 lb. wagon in the canyons but I never thought the traction control would be the issue on the uphill and combined with gravity and inertia they can barely do the job on the downhill in the beast..
Fresh Castrol SFR fluid is almost good enough to do the job but still lacking the durability to go for more than a few months of canyon driving..
I've talked to real Mercedes racers about the fluid issue before and after I did the flush and they all said it was the traction control and a lack of cool air directed to the brakes..
Again, never a soft pedal in my 3,600 lb GTS with steel brakes and OEM Mercedes dot4. But the heavy 4,700 lb. wagon is another story even with it's CCB and Castrol SFR fluid...
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ronin amg View Post
Dude you have never driven with me in the canyons and I'm super light on my brakes.

On my first test drive [50mi.] in a 2018 CCB equipped wagon through the canyons the brake pedal developed an inch extra travel due to cooked brake fluid on the uphill and downhill section...

Try doing the CCB bedding procedure recommended and tell me the pedal doesn't go soft due to the excessive heat buildup..
Traction control works the brakes hard on the uphill without you even knowing it, until you get out and smell them cooking while you scratch your head wondering when and where you were heavy on the slow pedal.

Some people drive and some people think they can drive. You are free to follow me through the canyons anytime as long as you never cross the centerline and let's see how well your brakes hold up in my world.

The pedal does go ‘soft’ during a true CCB ‘burnishing’ procedure, but that has nothing to do with the brake fluid, rather you are conditioning and ‘out-gassing’ the pads themselves, that’s what causes the soft pedal. It’s pad fade, not fluid fade. Once this has been done correctly this should not happen again as the pads are then seasoned.

What you are experiencing during your canyon drives is intriguing as you know as well as I do that no matter how fast a person drives in the ‘canyons’, or anywhere else on a street, you can never expose a vehicle to the same braking forces as you routinely see on a road course; it just doesn’t happen. And SRF does not ‘cook’ on a road course. I’m wondering if your ESC isn’t constantly kicking in, and over-heating the rear pads in particular, giving you a major issue with pad fade even though you’ve tried conditioning them; this made worse by the fact that the OEM pad is extremely street oriented and can’t withstand the high temps caused by prolonged brake application by the ESC as well as of course the weight of the car.

I would try this: drive your normal route but with ESC ‘Off’, and see if you still experience a soft brake pedal. To be safe, dial the velocity down somewhat of course. I suspect you might notice a lot less brake pedal fade. If that doesn’t work, consider upgrading to the Pagid RSC1 pads.

But BenzGTR is correct: unless you’ve got air in the brake system which can and does easily happen even when a fluid flush is done under pressure at a dealership; SRF just won’t ‘boil’.

Bish
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Old 01-15-2019, 02:10 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by thebishman View Post



The pedal does go ‘soft’ during a true CCB ‘burnishing’ procedure, but that has nothing to do with the brake fluid, rather you are conditioning and ‘out-gassing’ the pads themselves, that’s what causes the soft pedal. It’s pad fade, not fluid fade. Once this has been done correctly this should not happen again as the pads are then seasoned.

What you are experiencing during your canyon drives is intriguing as you know as well as I do that no matter how fast a person drives in the ‘canyons’, or anywhere else on a street, you can never expose a vehicle to the same braking forces as you routinely see on a road course; it just doesn’t happen. And SRF does not ‘cook’ on a road course. I’m wondering if your ESC isn’t constantly kicking in, and over-heating the rear pads in particular, giving you a major issue with pad fade even though you’ve tried conditioning them; this made worse by the fact that the OEM pad is extremely street oriented and can’t withstand the high temps caused by prolonged brake application by the ESC as well as of course the weight of the car.

I would try this: drive your normal route but with ESC ‘Off’, and see if you still experience a soft brake pedal. To be safe, dial the velocity down somewhat of course. I suspect you might notice a lot less brake pedal fade. If that doesn’t work, consider upgrading to the Pagid RSC1 pads.

But BenzGTR is correct: unless you’ve got air in the brake system which can and does easily happen even when a fluid flush is done under pressure at a dealership; SRF just won’t ‘boil’.

Bish
There is brake fade with the SRF in the canyons no matter what you guys on a nice smooth track are experiencing.
The wagon is faster and weighs 1,000 lbs more than the GTS and that extra weight is the real problem with zero brake cooling... As I've been saying I get a soft pedal going up hill using the brakes lightly and traction control on. I've been temped to turn it off and do a complete run but all ya get then is a runaway Rhino with 720hp, so I leave it on...
Who wants to drive in a straight line anyway when ya got *****in canyon roads to play on...
If you are not a hard canyon driver and only stick to a road course you are not getting the entire driving dynamic picture I'm trying to point out.
It is nothing like a road course.
It's all about being smooth and quick. It's never about late braking at high speed into a blind corner because that will just get you dead.
I pride myself on being smooth in the canyons and saving my brakes for the downhill ride home.

We need to find a proper brake cooling option for both the GTS and e63s wagons out there..
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:29 AM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by V8ray View Post
Never had an issue with my lowly steel brakes. I use cobalt race pads and SRF with Hoosier R7. Only when super hot I feel the pedal a little softer but nothing to alarming. Cooling will help definitely.




That is an awesome picture!
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Old 01-15-2019, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by sno View Post
That is an awesome picture!
+1 love the night shot
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Old 01-15-2019, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by surfah View Post
+1 love the night shot
Thanks guys!
To add up. I always flush my brakes for every track event no matter what. I’ve seen people smash cars at the end of the back straight and that doesn’t look pretty. Brakes should be on the top of the priority list.
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Old 01-15-2019, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by V8ray View Post

Thanks guys!
To add up. I always flush my brakes for every track event no matter what. I’ve seen people smash cars at the end of the back straight and that doesn’t look pretty. Brakes should be on the top of the priority list.

Ray, I’m assuming you mean ‘bleed’, not ‘flush’; yes?

If a person has their brake system flushed, (where the brake fluid is completely exchanged), too often, they are increasing the odds of getting air in the system; having a bleeder damaged, etc. IMHO, instead of just exchanging the fluid annually or when the manufacturer states to do so. 18 months for Castrol SRF.
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Old 01-15-2019, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by thebishman View Post



Ray, I’m assuming you mean ‘bleed’, not ‘flush’; yes?

If a person has their brake system flushed, (where the brake fluid is completely exchanged), too often, they are increasing the odds of getting air in the system; having a bleeder damaged, etc. IMHO, instead of just exchanging the fluid annually or when the manufacturer states to do so. 18 months for Castrol SRF.
Correct, they do it from each corner but I don’t do it every 18 months. I track my car almost every month starting February.
I don’t know why I keep calling it flush.
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Old 01-16-2019, 11:27 AM
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Nothing to do with our cars but good info to share I think.
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Old 01-16-2019, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ronin amg View Post
Nothing to do with our cars but good info to share I think.
Now I know what is the job of those external metal masses, in the pads. Thanks for the video
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Old 01-18-2019, 08:12 PM
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Old 01-30-2019, 08:35 PM
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I've designed a duct for our front brakes. The one in the photo is for the left side. It mounts to the lower a-arm and routes air to the opening between the knuckle and the brake caliper. This will feed the rotor as well as cool the caliper. The design is 3d printed in polypropylene which is the same plastic that other manufacturers use for their ducts. It provides temperature resistance and is tough so can it be deformed without breakage.
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Old 01-30-2019, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ronac View Post

I've designed a duct for our front brakes. The one in the photo is for the left side. It mounts to the lower a-arm and routes air to the opening between the knuckle and the brake caliper. This will feed the rotor as well as cool the caliper. The design is 3d printed in polypropylene which is the same plastic that other manufacturers use for their ducts. It provides temperature resistance and is tough so can it be deformed without breakage.
"Cool".. I could use two pair, let me know when these are available...
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Old 01-31-2019, 08:49 AM
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Can we see this mocked up on car.
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Old 01-31-2019, 10:20 AM
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That looks fantastic! As AMG 17GT mentions, are there issues with clearance when installed both with/without load on the wheels?

When will these be available for purchase?

Any thoughts on ducts for the rear wheels, as for those people who run run ESP ‘On’ the rear brakes can get fried.

Bish

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Old 01-31-2019, 12:56 PM
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Please excuse the dirty car. The previous owner put undercoating on it so it doesn't look as shiny and new unfortunately.

You can see from the first photo how the duct mounts to the lower a-arm. The second photo with the caliper has the left knuckle turned fully to the right to show the exit of the duct. The third photo shows the left wheel at full lock to the right to illustrate the clearance for the duct. The final photo shows the OEM channel in the undertray. The duct is designed to be in line with that channel to route the air between the caliper and the knuckle.

The rear knuckle has been scanned, I'll be working on the rear brake duct next.




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Old 01-31-2019, 01:12 PM
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I want !!!
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Old 01-31-2019, 01:40 PM
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Wow great work ronac!!!!
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Old 01-31-2019, 02:11 PM
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Very Impressed! I cant wait to see how they do on the track.
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