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AMG GTR brakes failure - Mercedes refuses warranty

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AMG GTR brakes failure - Mercedes refuses warranty

 
Old 02-28-2019, 08:26 PM
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More pics of destroyed parts...
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Old 02-28-2019, 08:47 PM
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Yeah we’re going to need more pics.
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by AMG 17GT View Post
Yeah we’re going to need more pics.
Levity is good.
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:09 PM
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It is interesting to note that the rears were fine and as already stated 9 mm on the pads.
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Old 03-01-2019, 09:54 AM
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This thread, and frankly this sub-forum is about the AMG GT line of cars, not the SL, and you took an SL on LS and expect it to survive a punishing on a road course? What the heck did you expect? The SL is a long distance GT cruiser, not a car that anyone should be using as a track car unless it’s at 4/10ths and just for fun. It’s a massively heavy car not designed to run multiple laps at high speed on the track.

No no wonder you destroyed the brakes. You were using the wrong ‘tool’ for the job.

Bish
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by thebishman View Post
This thread, and frankly this sub-forum is about the AMG GT line of cars, not the SL, and you took an SL on LS and expect it to survive a punishing on a road course? What the heck did you expect? The SL is a long distance GT cruiser, not a car that anyone should be using as a track car unless it’s at 4/10ths and just for fun. It’s a massively heavy car not designed to run multiple laps at high speed on the track.

No no wonder you destroyed the brakes. You were using the wrong ‘tool’ for the job.

Bish
Bish -

With all due respect, you are missing the point. There is NO COOLING TO THE FRONT BRAKES. It doesn't matter what the weight is (~4100 lbs) or how aggressively it is driven.

By example, two 250lb pro football players in a 3600 lb car would be 4100 lbs. Would you then say pro football players shouldn't take their car to the track?

What about the GT R that is up for sale with only 3000 miles. He states new cc brakes from warranty claim. This is not unique to the SL.
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Old 03-01-2019, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by spyder987 View Post
Bish -

With all due respect, you are missing the point. There is NO COOLING TO THE FRONT BRAKES. It doesn't matter what the weight is (~4100 lbs) or how aggressively it is driven.

By example, two 250lb pro football players in a 3600 lb car would be 4100 lbs. Would you then say pro football players shouldn't take their car to the track?

What about the GT R that is up for sale with only 3000 miles. He states new cc brakes from warranty claim. This is not unique to the SL.
I am not trying to argue with you, but frankly I am not missing the point one bit. The brakes on the SL work incredibly well for the job they are designed for; that is, stopping a 4,000lb GT car from high speeds on an Autobahn/Interstate. They are not designed to do something for which the car was never intended, and that is to run repeated laps at high speed on a road course with the brakes never having time to cool down, as they easily have time to do so on the street. There is no reason for MB to design an SL with brake ducts, as having to cool down highly stressed brakes is not in the design parameters for the car since it shouldn’t be used on a road course. The reason that an owner would choose to buy the car with CCMs installed is two fold: one, they look ‘cool’, and two: they minimise brake dust and keep the wheels cleaner.

I hate it for you that that you are out of pocket for replacing brake components on the car, but you used it in a fashion for which it wasn’t designed, and hence you paid a penalty for doing so.

I was at the AMG Academy Advanced course at LS last October, and there is a reason why the SLs only run at speed on track for 2 1/2 laps; (plus slowing down on the front straight to allow for student cars to ‘rotate’), and that is that these cars will fail miserably when pushed above their very meager limits on a road course. As will multiple other street oriented vehicles.
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Old 03-01-2019, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by thebishman View Post
I am not trying to argue with you, but frankly I am not missing the point one bit. The brakes on the SL work incredibly well for the job they are designed for; that is, stopping a 4,000lb GT car from high speeds on an Autobahn/Interstate. They are not designed to do something for which the car was never intended, and that is to run repeated laps at high speed on a road course with the brakes never having time to cool down, as they easily have time to do so on the street. There is no reason for MB to design an SL with brake ducts, as having to cool down highly stressed brakes is not in the design parameters for the car since it shouldn’t be used on a road course. The reason that an owner would choose to buy the car with CCMs installed is two fold: one, they look ‘cool’, and two: they minimise brake dust and keep the wheels cleaner.

I hate it for you that that you are out of pocket for replacing brake components on the car, but you used it in a fashion for which it wasn’t designed, and hence you paid a penalty for doing so.

I was at the AMG Academy Advanced course at LS last October, and there is a reason why the SLs only run at speed on track for 2 1/2 laps; (plus slowing down on the front straight to allow for student cars to ‘rotate’), and that is that these cars will fail miserably when pushed above their very meager limits on a road course. As will multiple other street oriented vehicles.
Would you agree that 1) my MB SA should have said something to me when we discussed it prior to going, and 2) that the AMG driving academy would have responded to my request to let me know if any preparation was necessary?

Given your reasoning for the 'why ccb' I am curious to know your interpretation of why there is a Race setting in the car. How was this intended to be used? Or just look cool?
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Old 03-01-2019, 01:39 PM
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So, this may open a can of worms.......

Being a Formula 1 fan for over 35 years, I am big into the Safety Car/Medical Car. I've been going to Montreal for the Canadian GP for 15 years now. I have personally seen the new Safety Car (AMG GT R) circulate the track for over 10 laps. Circuit Gilles Villeneuve is a heavy braking track! Between the long straights and chicanes there are many heavy braking events per lap. Never did Bernd Mayländer need to cool down the brakes while leading the drivers around during a Safety Car event. So, if the Safety Car (my assumption which is bad) has the standard CCB package (I'm pretty sure that is what I saw on the AMG Factory tour), why does that GT R not have brake issues?

On another note, I've been on the Autobahns with a GTS with standard brakes for MANY heavy braking moments of 290 km/hr down to something much less. Never once did I experience fading/overheating/rotors scoring/pad material disappearing issues. As someone said here, these cars are designed for Autobahn driving. It seems odd that a track day would cause brake issues on a car that is designed to run, in some cases, 10+ laps at Spa leading the F1 cars around.....

Does anyone know if the Safety Car has a different setup for brakes? And if so, could that be purchased as an "option" for the. GT R?

-C

Last edited by chris135b; 03-01-2019 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 03-01-2019, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by spyder987 View Post
Would you agree that 1) my MB SA should have said something to me when we discussed it prior to going, and 2) that the AMG driving academy would have responded to my request to let me know if any preparation was necessary?

Given your reasoning for the 'why ccb' I am curious to know your interpretation of why there is a Race setting in the car. How was this intended to be used? Or just look cool?
MB SA's will likely have no clue what happens on a track nor would they state any pros/cons from a liability perspective. They can certify that the car was in good working order.
In regards to Race mode, this is a standard setting on virtually all AMG's and all it does is to describe a preset that changes settings to most aggressive and least invasive (engine, transmission, suspension, traction, braking).
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Old 03-01-2019, 03:15 PM
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Hahaha right Wolf. This isn’t a video game where the race button engages warp speed.
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Old 03-01-2019, 04:43 PM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by spyder987 View Post
Would you agree that 1) my MB SA should have said something to me when we discussed it prior to going, and 2) that the AMG driving academy would have responded to my request to let me know if any preparation was necessary?

Given your reasoning for the 'why ccb' I am curious to know your interpretation of why there is a Race setting in the car. How was this intended to be used? Or just look cool?
Yup. The SL is all for the soft driving experience and looking cool.
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Old 03-01-2019, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by chris135b View Post
So, this may open a can of worms.......

Being a Formula 1 fan for over 35 years, I am big into the Safety Car/Medical Car. I've been going to Montreal for the Canadian GP for 15 years now. I have personally seen the new Safety Car (AMG GT R) circulate the track for over 10 laps. Circuit Gilles Villeneuve is a heavy braking track! Between the long straights and chicanes there are many heavy braking events per lap. Never did Bernd Mayländer need to cool down the brakes while leading the drivers around during a Safety Car event. So, if the Safety Car (my assumption which is bad) has the standard CCB package (I'm pretty sure that is what I saw on the AMG Factory tour), why does that GT R not have brake issues?

On another note, I've been on the Autobahns with a GTS with standard brakes for MANY heavy braking moments of 290 km/hr down to something much less. Never once did I experience fading/overheating/rotors scoring/pad material disappearing issues. As someone said here, these cars are designed for Autobahn driving. It seems odd that a track day would cause brake issues on a car that is designed to run, in some cases, 10+ laps at Spa leading the F1 cars around.....

Does anyone know if the Safety Car has a different setup for brakes? And if so, could that be purchased as an "option" for the. GT R?

-C
I posted in another thread that I had the opportunity to drive the Montreal F1 track a couple of years ago on the Wednesday before the F1 race in a Mercedes supplied AMG GT-S as well as some other AMG cars. Berndt Maylander was there with the AMG GT-S safety car with CCM brakes. (before they switched to the AMG GTR). I spoke at length with him (super nice guy) between our sessions about his experiences as the Safety Car Driver, and one thing I asked him was about which modifications had been made to the Safety Car. He said virtually none, except that they had added brake cooling, and the other thing is that the car ran on Pirelli P Zeros (so much lower grip than PSC2's) because they ran the sponsor's tires and had to run a street tire capable of running in the rain, as there is no time to change the tires on the Safety Car as they have to go out within a few seconds notice, wet or dry track.

I also asked him how much he liked the GT-S and he said he liked it so much that he had bought one himself. I asked him if he had ordered it with CCM brakes, and he said with a smile, when it's your own money, you order it with iron brakes which is what he said he did. It was a real privilege to get to talk to him for a long time between our track sessions.

And you are right, that track has some very, very hard braking zones, and also zero run-off. Not a track for the faint of heart.
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Old 03-01-2019, 08:51 PM
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I suppose we can all agree that this cooling option should have been available as an add on from 2017 forward. Certainly should have been standard on GTR. It’s absence is a baffling oversight IMO.
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Old 03-02-2019, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by spyder987 View Post
Bish -

With all due respect, you are missing the point. There is NO COOLING TO THE FRONT BRAKES. It doesn't matter what the weight is (~4100 lbs) or how aggressively it is driven.

By example, two 250lb pro football players in a 3600 lb car would be 4100 lbs. Would you then say pro football players shouldn't take their car to the track?

What about the GT R that is up for sale with only 3000 miles. He states new cc brakes from warranty claim. This is not unique to the SL.
Its not just about the weight of an SL on a track that stresses brakes. You will be braking a lot earlier and longer as the cars suspension can’t carve through turns like the GT.
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Old 03-02-2019, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by descartesfool
I posted in another thread that I had the opportunity to drive the Montreal F1 track a couple of years ago on the Wednesday before the F1 race in a Mercedes supplied AMG GT-S as well as some other AMG cars. Berndt Maylander was there with the AMG GT-S safety car with CCM brakes. (before they switched to the AMG GTR). I spoke at length with him (super nice guy) between our sessions about his experiences as the Safety Car Driver, and one thing I asked him was about which modifications had been made to the Safety Car. He said virtually none, except that they had added brake cooling, and the other thing is that the car ran on Pirelli P Zeros (so much lower grip than PSC2's) because they ran the sponsor's tires and had to run a street tire capable of running in the rain, as there is no time to change the tires on the Safety Car as they have to go out within a few seconds notice, wet or dry track.

I also asked him how much he liked the GT-S and he said he liked it so much that he had bought one himself. I asked him if he had ordered it with CCM brakes, and he said with a smile, when it's your own money, you order it with iron brakes which is what he said he did. It was a real privilege to get to talk to him for a long time between our track sessions.

And you are right, that track has some very, very hard braking zones, and also zero run-off. Not a track for the faint of heart.
Aasahhhhhhhh, yes. I remember this year at the GP! There were a few of you according to the announcers on Friday. During the Thursday pit lane walkabout/open day, a few people were talking about "the lucky few" that got a chance to drive the track. On the Friday, I mentioned to my wife, "how cool would it be to hit the last chicane, braking REALLY hard and using all of the track at the Wall of Champions? Don't hit it, just have about 5 mm of space between the car and the wall!" This must have been awesome for you.

The runoff areas have gotten better since we first started going. Back in 2004, the only paved run off was at the Coin Senna..T1-2 Complex. And that was only a small stripe of asphalt! I remember one year (I think 2005?) where Jarno Trulli's front rotors on the Toyota exploded coming into T13. Our Grandstand, GS12, gasped and thought he was heading straight into the walls...but somehow he navigated through the limited runoff area to the left of the chicane and just stopped right by pit lane exit...

Speaking of brakes, that is cool about the talk with Bernd. And it is interesting that MB put on the cooling package! The same sort of high level "the car is hot" situation happened in the W204 world. The stock C63s Oil Coolers were/are wicked small and one can have extremely high oil temps when pushing the car. Then, above 275F, the car goes into limp mode....the resolution was a Cooling Package Code 44O that basically gave one the Oil Coolers, Air ducts Intake and Wheel Arches from the F1 Medical Car. So as someone pointed out here, it is interesting these cars (W204 C63, AMG GT R) didn't come that way from the factory.
On another note, I remember driving an E63 AMG S while in Germany really, really hard (aka, for 15 minutes, I didn't go below 200 Km and reached and indicated 312 Km/hr on numerous occasions). The Oil Temp never go above 212 F and the brakes were perfect! Interesting times!

For the lucky ones that can drive your GTs, enjoy them! Us NorthEast folk are hoping this is our last snowfall period for Winter...bring on the Spring!

-C
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Old 03-02-2019, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by chris135b View Post

For the lucky ones that can drive your GTs, enjoy them! Us NorthEast folk are hoping this is our last snowfall period for Winter...bring on the Spring!

-C
oh come on man, don't insult the snow gods.
we'll get a foot on April fools ... again.

But back on topic, True brake ducting would be a nice addition.
The interesting part of the Berndt Maylander story is if he had it on the safety GTS then there is a part number somewhere in Mercedes inventory system.
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Old 03-03-2019, 11:44 AM
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Okay then, I think we can all agree, if you take your GTS, GT R, SL, etc. on track you are going to need additional front brake cooling. I wouldn't be surprised if the 2020 GT R has some improved front brake cooling. Clearly the Pro version does.


Improved front brake cooling on the 2020 GTR?

Front wheel arch louvers on the Pro version for sure will improve front brake cooling.

I just wish AMG had come clean with this whole issue at the outset.
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Old 03-03-2019, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by chris135b View Post
Speaking of brakes, that is cool about the talk with Bernd. And it is interesting that MB put on the cooling package! The same sort of high level "the car is hot" situation happened in the W204 world. The stock C63s Oil Coolers were/are wicked small and one can have extremely high oil temps when pushing the car. Then, above 275F, the car goes into limp mode....the resolution was a Cooling Package Code 44O that basically gave one the Oil Coolers, Air ducts Intake and Wheel Arches from the F1 Medical Car. So as someone pointed out here, it is interesting these cars (W204 C63, AMG GT R) didn't come that way from the factory.
On another note, I remember driving an E63 AMG S while in Germany really, really hard (aka, for 15 minutes, I didn't go below 200 Km and reached and indicated 312 Km/hr on numerous occasions). The Oil Temp never go above 212 F and the brakes were perfect! Interesting times!

For the lucky ones that can drive your GTs, enjoy them! Us NorthEast folk are hoping this is our last snowfall period for Winter...bring on the Spring!

-C
FYI the 44O kit for the C63 (I have it), replaces all of the oil coolers with those from the Black Series.

I would expect that the GT Pro or Black Series will have upgraded brake and oil coolers as well, and they will be able to be retrofit on the “regular” GT cars.
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Old 03-05-2019, 05:35 PM
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TIKT was running some serious tests on Hockenheim circuit past weekend. They mounted their duct on the Right and had stock setup on the Left. IR sensors are mounted on the uprights to measure rotor temperatures with logging. Test was performed in order to define the difference in effectiveness between TIKT duct and stock setup. In the video below You can clearly see the difference between left and right and it would have been even bigger if brakes could been pushed further. That was not possible as the difference was so big that it made car unstable as a result of Left side fade and You could feel it on the steering wheel.
They are preparing for next tests by the end of the month where they plan to go with all ducts and see for how long can they race the car.

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Old 03-05-2019, 05:56 PM
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Very effective. Drop of 100C and more, and much faster recovery.
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Old 03-07-2019, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by spyder987 View Post
Would you agree that 1) my MB SA should have said something to me when we discussed it prior to going, and 2) that the AMG driving academy would have responded to my request to let me know if any preparation was necessary?

Given your reasoning for the 'why ccb' I am curious to know your interpretation of why there is a Race setting in the car. How was this intended to be used? Or just look cool?
your beating a dead horse with some of these guys. They’ll come up with more sh## when these cars break. They’ll analyze it to death—what did you eat before your track day, did you take a sh## before because weight matters. You get my point! The bottom line MB is making their cars cheaper by the day and more importantly not standing by customers when there is an issue. All proven facts. Something you have to live with when buying AMG these days.

Good luck!
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