ntakebay

Hi,
I found a beautiful 2002 blue C230 Kompressor with a low mileage (23k mi). But car fax revealed that it was a factory repurchase because of lemon law. It's been circulating in the used car auctions, and this is why it has a low mileage.

I know that reliability of MB products were declining (I think MB is rated as one of the worst reliability company
in the cosumer research type ratings now). After checking the web and web forums, I've also learnt that C230K had a lot of problems. By looking at the complaints, the majority them seems to be superficial. My theory is that a lot of MB buyers expect a lot from a car, and complain about minor problems such as some electric glitches. They seems to be the people who keep buying a new car and trade it in after the warrantee expires. In other words, they have never made their hand greasy. I'd like to know honest opinions about the reliability of MB (especially C230k) from people in this forum. I think people here knows about cars better than the average MB buyers. I do work on my cars and fix most things in my 73 MGB-GT and 86 volvo 740 by myself. I would rate my two cars reliable because a major mechanical components such as engine, transmission and chassis don't break down (volvo has 250k mi and still going well) , and most things are easy to fix. But non-mechanic type people would probably think they are terrible.

Q1. The C230K was a lemon, and it appeared both transmission and engine were serviced before the factory repurchase. I briefly checked out and test-drove, and didn't notice problems. Do you think that it is risky to buy this car even after a professional mechanics checkes it up? In other word, a initial lemon will stay a lemon even after problems were repaired? I live in Fairbanks AK, and a break-down of a car can cause death when the temp is around -40F. Would you trust your C230K (or other MB) in this kind of condition?

Q2. How easy is it to work on 2002 MB? The engine bay looked a little crowded, but it didn't look so bad.
But I haven't worked on "modern" cars and I'm wondering if you need a lot of special equipments for repair.

Q3. Are there anyone who can say that your C230K has been reliable and satisfied with it for a long time? I'd like to know experiences with this car. Searching forum reveals a lot of problems, but this doesn't mean that there are no satisfied owner. Please tell us about your positive experience.

Q4. Do you think 1988 E320 would be a more reliable car than c230k?

I appreciate any advise,
Thanks
Naoki

razorfish228

I would not buy that MB unless I had a second car. For reliability, I think MB has still a solid car with minor glitches as you have mentioned and its a luxury to have one expecially people who know how to fix cars like myself. I've played around for so long on Japanese performance that I had to upgrade myself to a German vehicle when I was able to afford one. I love my MB and had no major problems yet except little ones that were covered by warranty.

If you really like the lemon one that you saw, make sure you get an extended warranty by the dealer for 100K miles and also just to mention that you do have MBUSA to roadside assistance.

MB-BOB

Who would willingly buy a car taken back by any manufacturer on a Lemon Law return? Run, don't walk, away. FWIW.

shorthair

IMHO being the owner of an 02 C320, I would pass. Some people have no problem with theirs, others have a lot. You already know it is a lemon and such a big problem that it was taken back. It went through several auctions and hasn't found an owner. All those people can't be wrong. Caveat emptor.

If you just can't live without it, the previous advice was good - get an extended warranty. I just had my tranny replaced at 40k, and thankfully the extended warranty covered it. ($3.7k)

Buellwinkle

The 2002 C230 was highly unreliabe, that's why I got rid of mine and got a 2004 C230. Don't be fooled by what the lemon paperwork says, remember, this problem occured multiple times and was not fix or was in the shop over 30 days for the same problem. It says nothing about any other problem the person had or how often he brought it in for repairs, just the item listed in the lemon case. Also keep in mind MB doesn't make it easy to lemon a car, you have to have lawyer and for most people the process isn't worth the hassle so this person must have been really p.o.'ed. Mine didn't qualify for a lemon but 2 items came close at 3 times for the same complaint including engine check engine light related stuff. It was in about 18 times in the first year, most of it was problem related, in comparison my 2004 has never been in for a single problem in 18 months (here I go saying that on Friday the 13th, arghhh)....

Lastly, keep in mind modern cars can have problems that are extremely expensive to fix, engine sensors can cost hundreds of dollars, the ECU can cost $2,000 to replace. Also you don't know if there are downstream problems, for example, if a sensor went bad several times that may have overheated the motor, run it rich or lean for excessive periods of time, there could be hidden engine damage that may affect it's life.

Buying a used car is already a landmine of problems, why compound it buying something that is a known rolling landmine? If I lived in a remote area, the last car I would get is a MB. Consider a Lexus, seriously, don't look at any German cars.

Outland

I disagree. I have had some issues, but nothing major, and nothing out of pocket. The core mechanicals of the vehicle are quite sound. The maze of electronics in the cars is the big question mark. No other car has the level of computerized integration as does a modern MB.

Would I buy another C230 Coupe. Yes. Would I recommend it to someone else. Yes...with some qualifiers. Would I buy a lemon law car...and this is ANY manufacturer...No...with some qualifiers.

On the MB, its clear that the dealer service staffs are clearly not trained well enough, or were not at the car's inception, prepaired for it. I have one of the last of the 2002's before switchover to 2003, so perhaps the later build date is responsible for the fewer problems. But, for the car to have been misdiagnosed, and so poor handled to have been lemon law'd, it was either a really incompetent dealer, or one that simply didn't care. Or the buyer just wanted out no matter what. This is not likely to be a car that has been cared for in the matter you want to invest in.

If you like the car, keep looking. The 2002 is easily the most desireable of the Supercharged C- Coupes thanks to its SLK motor. Subsequent years had the considerably less powerful(in the real world) 1.8L.

alpinweiss

It is possible all problems have been fixed, and it will be a great car from now on. It is also possible that Santa Claus is real.

If you are madly in love with the car, follow your heart and good luck. I would personally try to avoid a car that was a verified lemon. There are other choices in the marketplace.

Nola

My coupe has been rock solid. I did have a CD problem early on, but that was fixed quickly enough.

mick1

Don't take the chance on a certified lemon car. Find another C230k if you really want to own this model.

ntakebay

Thank you all for your inputs. I originally thought that if there aren't many design flows, quality control problems at the factory can be corrected. But this is a hopefull thinking, and in reality, there are many incompetent mechanics, who could have made the problems worse. I thought that this could be a good deal (If they come down to $14-15k) for people who can work on cars by themselves, but I guess modern MB's aren't probably friendly to DIY home mechanics, right? So I guess I should stop dreaming (although we have santa claus's house in North Pole, AK, 30 min from here) and follow the rational consensus and pass this one.
Thanks,
Naoki

carsandkites

It seems that you are putting too much weight on the miles. For the same money, I'd look for a 02 Coupe that had the MB Certified warrentee. It will give you the chance to own it, drive it and see if it is the kind of car you want to keep until the end of time.

As far as working on the car, it has a lot of well made parts that are easy to keep in great shape. Almost all of the issues are electronic. If you turned off the ESP, ABS and you had a manual tranny, I don't think you would have problems with anything!

ctC230K

I would never consider buying a car that you know was a lemon just like I would never consider a car that was wrecked, too many problems!! I would go with a Japanese car if you need the car to be very reliable. Maybe an Acura or a Lexus?

RE-Agent

"I live in Fairbanks AK, and a break-down of a car can cause death when the temp is around -40F. Would you trust your C230K (or other MB) in this kind of condition"


I would not consider that car and based on your quote above I would consider relocating as well.

platinumsc

Check this site to see what others have complained about on this and other benzes www.lemonmb.com
I agree with the guy who said look for another identical car. There are plenty of them around. There are probably more used benzes to choose from than any other brand....at least there is around south fl.

Outland

Nice schilling work. Can you troll somewhere else?

StillKickin

I really dont understand that site or why only M-B gets such bad press. All cars have problems especially German ones and even Japanese ones, but when Toyota or Honda have a problem nobody complains about it. When M-B have problems its blown out of proportion even though Im positive there is not much difference in the statistics between all makes of car in regards to number of problems and price of problems versus the vehicles sold. Not to mention the things you cant put a number onto because no matter how much you try a Lexus will never have the prestige of a Mercedes-Benz. That site a place for people to rant because they got unlucky. Prior to my dads '05 ML we had the '01 where everyone complained about the quality, but we had no problems with that car and we drove it hard, 20,000 miles a year on NYC streets and highways. sorry this was a bit

FrankW

the answer to your question: BECAUSE Japanese cars are generally CHEAP and when people buy'em they don't expect much out of them other than taking them to work and back home. And when something fails, as long as they can keep driving them the owners couldn't give a crap.

BUT when it comes to people buying MBZ, BMW, AUDI, etc high end brands people expect them to be nothing less than perfect even if they only bought the entry class of these brands. Personally I never expected my car to be perfect because it is a C-class, but I'd say 85% of the MB C, BMW 3, and AUDI A4 owners all think the other way around because these cars are usually the first high end brand they've owned. The rest of the 15% are those that have experienced with these cars for generations in their families.

StillKickin

I expect problems thats why mine is new and on warrenty and so is my dads, I just cant understand why the japanese cars get to get away with whatever problems they have, here I am trying to avoid politics, and its politics all over again. On the flip side MBZ really needs to step up performance because its getting more and more difficult to justify buying 35K car with 189 HP and these so called reliability issues when that same 35k gets you into an Infiniti G35, and an Acura TSX is 27k. I personally like my C-Class far more, but if it takes 42k to get a similarly equiped C350 Infiniti G35 or Lexus IS are serious competition to the C-Class in a couple years.

r_liebo

1) The top Japanese brands DO NOT have the same amount of problems as many MB models. You cannot look at individual cases, because every maker builds a bad car occassionally, but overall, Lexus builds a better car from this standpoint. This is just a fact, and MB has all but acknowledged their problems here compared with some of the competion.
2) The perception issue is two-fold. Firstly, as mentioned above, when you pay more money for a car, you expect more in return (outside of buying a classic collectible or a true exotic like a Ferrari). There are many factors in considering whether a car is worth the price paid, but the ability of all of the cars functions to work properly and consistently is a VALID consideration. We are talking about cars intended to be daily drivers here, not garage queen weekend cruisers. Secondly, MB built its reputation on quality. It used to be that the rock-solid feel behind the wheel with MB came with reliability that was better than anyone else's, hands down. That sadly is no longer the case, but MB still markets itself on this reputation (just look at their ad campaign showing pictures of people proudly standing in front of their reliable, trusty, vintage Mercedes). It is no secret that objectively, MB cars cost a heck of a lot more than the competition, and when people pay this premium for a premium mark, they justifiably expect the premium quality that MB used to provide to help justify the higher price.
3) For those japanese cars that suffer some of the same Q/A problems as MB has, they do not "get away with it". Go check out the Acura TL forums, and you will see plenty of people complaining about poor leather, squeeky dashboards, tire shimmys, etc. There are plenty of ticked-off owners over there, and many of those buyers spent a lot less on their cars than the members of this forum.

SteveL1

Interesting in that the "lemon" site had NO C32's or C55's and almost all of the complaints were on '01 & '02 C240's. A couple of '03's but nothing newer. How old is that site or has Mercedes really cleaned up their act enough to not have any problems on the newer models????

It does make me a little nervous as I'm in the process of buying my first Mercedes, an '02 C32 with 12,900 miles on it and out of warranty. I've been a die hard BMW guy for the last 15 years and although I have had my fair share of problems, for the most part they have been very good cars. I hope this one follows suit!!!

r_liebo

While MB has gotten much better since the early year C's, the reason you don't see C32s or C55s on the "lemon" site is most likely because there are so few of them made. AMGs are very rare. Another factor may be that MB is much more apt to fight you trying to "lemon" a $60,000 AMG than $33,000 C240.
There is no reliability difference between an AMG or non-AMG. The cars share a lot in common -- they don't build them any better.

Outland

More likely, they are willing to kiss your *** when youve blown 50K on a C Class.

andyd987

I ordered my car in August of 2001 and received in it October of 2001. I use it as my weekend ride in nice weather. It has approximately 21K miles.
The only problems I have had are:

1. Retainer on filler cap broke. Although a plastic retainer ring broke, the cap remained serviceable for almost a couple of years until the cap was replaced by the dealer under warranty at my last service under warranty.
2. Once when the car was about a year old, the I received an engine code. The dealer said is was a misfire in #3 cylinder and reset the code. I think a tank of lower octane gas might have caused this.
3. I noticed a rough idle a couple of times. I bought it in for the last service under warranty and the service personnel noticed it on their own and discovered a bad coil on the #1 cylinder and replaced it.
4. I cracked the rear speaker grill on the drivers door. I was pleasantly surprised that a replacement was only $40. I haven't replaced it yet.

I have changed the oil and filter at least six times between the dealer and myself. I have gotten 34 MPG on an 850 mile trip driving 65 MPH, 29 MPG driving the same trip at 80 MPH. I am very happy and satisfied with this car and still take joy in driving it everytime.

I suggest you find one that has been pampered and has documented maintenance.

Magma Red 6-spd

Alan B

Everyone makes a good point. MB's can be great cars...but they can also have problems (obvious w/all cars). My 2 cents for what its worth is, if you live in rural Alaska, why not just buy an older Toyota Landcruiser or 4 Runner that will definitely be the venerable wheels you need. If you have extra $, by an MB for a 2nd car.

I have a Chevy Suburban, runs great but sucks on gas. My C320 Wagon is great (w/minor electrical hiccups). I hate the cold and really hate having a car breakdown in it.

Best of luck.

FrankW

there's not a lot of reliability difference, but there is the attention to detail differences. a lot more insulation material was put into the C32 and detail when putting each parts on the car. also you'll hear more people with problems with their right hand drive sold in S. Africa and some Asian country, but not those with the left hand drive car assembled at AMG's Germany plant.