Boo2

It has nothing to do with game. We are talking about a car. Are you saying that if you have game, you should drive a piece of $h!t car? (generally speaking not aimed at the C230). F@ck that, if you got money be a baller too. And yeah, I have a different term for guys who comment on another guy's game.

Spyke

I'll bet you've been saying that since the '70s, haven't you?

taylor192

How about this, we have a term for guys who comment on another guys game, its called c*ck-blocking. When one guy will purposely put down another guy to try and get the girl, its a horrible and dirty way to win the "game".

That's what I consider this whole thread, the c*ck-blockers playing the "game" very dirty. What do you get by calling another man's car "poor"? You deflate their status and artificially raise your's, except c*ck-blockers don't usually limit themselves to just the car they drive, they use all sorts of tactics, but its all part of the "game".

Its one thing to a brag bout what you got, its another to point out what others don't.

Boo2

It's a good thing you realize what you were doing. Haters always get theirs.

There is only one person really talking smack. Everyone else has been pretty objective, look at MB-Bob's response and he's the most reasonable person here. No one is hating here, just stating facts/observations. Besides, I drive a C-Class too you frickin Herb.

MB-BOB

Um, no, I haven't.

1967: My dad will kill me if I ask for $4K toward that Aston Martin...
1977: Gee, I could have gotten a loan on that Aston Martin. Yea, dad would have had to co-sign, but at least...
1987: Damn, I should've knocked over a 7-Eleven to get the cash for that Aston Martin...
1997: Crap, I'd have to be a principal investor in Microsoft to afford that Aston Martin today...

Besides, Spyke, you're the one with the 1960 Karmann Ghia. Whaddup wid dat?

Edit: Gee, thanks, Boo2! Oh, BTW, I heard on Speed last weekend during the F1 race, that FORD is going to hold each business unit responsible for turning a profit from now on. No more cross-subsidies between makes. This holds some ramifications for whichever FORD division sponsors the FORD F1 program--currently Jaguar. Anyway, if true, that will put the challenge to both Jaguar and Aston Martin to pay their bills with their own revenues, not just "ramp up or down in production" to weather lean years. Time will tell if FORD follows through.

BlackC230Coupe

the CL has a backseat.



slkride- when will u tell me what SLK u have??????????????

amgme

if you look at his post in the slk32 board, he has a slk32 on order or may have already come.

BlackC230Coupe

i dont believe him.

Duffer

but as to MB-Bob or anyone stating that the C230K is a "poor man's MB" oversimplifies the analysis a buyer goes through when purchasing a car. It's as if one says "I want an MB but can only afford the entry level coupe."

But I don't think most people buy any car in this manner. My spouse purchased the C230K and she, for example, can afford a Porsche or a SLK 32 or any car of that ilk. But she does not like to spend her money on autos -- she was looking for a car that seats 4, had a good engine, ride, sporty, a/c, radio, had good cargo room, sunroof and rode easy in town or on the hiway. The C230 just fit her style and what she was willing to spend on an auto.

As to these trolls saying one can't compare between makes, I strongly disagree. That is what most normal people do -- as I said, some people refer to the Audi TT as a poor man's Porsche. Not necessarily saying the Audi owner is a poor man, I could have purchased a Porsche. But, and I know others might be aghast at this notion, I look for value. The TT at 37k was a better value out of the Box than a Boxster S at 60k. Plus the TT can fit luggage and golf clubs. It suited my lifestyle. The decision has nothing to do with being poor.

I just think that the pollster's question was too ambiguous. Is he saying the Coupe does not belong in the NA MB lineup? Or the Coupe is not a real MB because its materials or quality, in his opinion, is cheap? Who knows?

And after reading his comments, who cares?

Boo2

Okay, but based on this argument, you would have to say that the car you drive is a percentage of what you can afford / are willing to spend. My dad bought an SL500, but can afford a Bently and a Maybach. He also does not like to spend money on autos anymore; and he too was looking for a car with a good engine, ride, sporty, a/c, radio, and rode easy in town and in hiway. Sure, there are people who can afford more that the car they bought, but there are also many people who have over-extended themselves to get the same car. My point is that the buying characteristics should be proportional throughout the Model lines.

Duffer

Could you expand on this point a bit ?

Thanks.

JeT

I think he is referring to the fact that as you go up the model range you are getting more quality.

That goes without saying doesn't it? Just as a matter of issue, how do you go from that argument to concluding that the C230 is a poor man's MB? If the car was priced higher would your perceptions be different? That's not a rhetorical question and its not necessarily directed at you Boo2. But I am genuinely vexed at how you guys in the US put such labels on these things.

Would you guys even be having this debate if you had the A class and the C180 in the US?

MB-BOB

Just to clarify. I wasn't offering a rationale concerning how a consumer decides to buy this car or that. My point was a theory on how Mercedes-Benz might look at the concept of offering entry-level, or reasonably affordable vehicles to the mass market.

In contrast, a conscious decision NOT to offer "poor-men's" Benzes means that MB chooses to get locked in at the high-end market. At the high end, the market is narrower (because of the smaller customer base) and dictates a smaller, trimmer Mercedes-Benz, which leads to becoming a specialty hand-built coach maker, like Ferrari, Lambo, Maserati, Aston Martin, etc. If MB does not want to become a specialty coach maker, it behooves them to play in ALL market segments, acquire other mass market manufacturers (like Chrysler), etc.

From a BUYER's point of view, I don't consider a C-Coupe to be the "poor man's" MB, because it is not the least expensive model in the MB lineup... especially when sold in America with some features standard that are optional worldwide.

Duffer

If we could get away from this "poor man's" concept a bit, it would probably enrich the discussion.

Isn't the real question (or one of them), "Should Mercedes enter this market segment with this type of car in NA? And what does this type of car do to the MB prestige image in North America?"

taylor192

Some people do. I will agree with Boo2, I did over-extend myself a bit to get into a C230K, I would've been better off buying a lowered priced car and saving a few extra $$$s,...but what do you consider "over-extending"? I could've leased a TT and over-extended a bit more, or even pushed the limits and leased a Boxster S.

Realistically I can only afford the C230K and maybe the C240, which are the entry level coupe and sedan, but didn't buy just based on the fact its a MB, it was the best car to fit my lifestyle at this time in the price range I was looking at. Although the C230K did stretch the price range I felt "reasonable", ... all things considered, the extra $$$ is worth it for the added value of MB service and safety.

So Boo2 maybe you should consider why people "over-extend" themselves. There's many that over-extend themselves within the same brand (getting a SLK320 rather than a SK230). Its not always about "buying into the brand name", it's about "getting the most for your money", or "best bang for the buck".

taylor192

Start a new thread with the appropriate question and cross-reference it here. I like the way your question is worded, and would love to hear from some European MB C-class owners when MB first introduced the hatchback in Europe, what the reaction was like.

JeT

I lived in London for 2 years and I can say, from what I observed, the response was positive or at the least nothing different to the launch of any of its other higher models. But you have to remember in Europe, an MB is simply an "MB". The image factor is not overly significant there.

Boo2

People over-extend themselves to be happy. And there is nothing wrong with that as long as you can handle it. You're right, many people do it. I think that the "best bang for the buck" is anything that makes you happy. There doesn't have to be a logical reasoning behind it. The thing that i'm getting at is the "Could've" mentality.

I think this topic is country specific. Different markets, different tastes, different cultures, etc. are all marketing factors that all successful companies research. If in Europe a Benz ain't $h!t, then the company will sell as many products as possible to increase revenue. If it is marketing its products in a more sensitive environment (USA), it will be more cautious not to upset cultural differences and tastes. In the U.S. Mercedes is seen as a Luxury vehicle. The arrogance associated with the brand name will always lead to the inevitable "looking down" at the lowest models. Since the reputation of Mercedes is slightly different here than in Europe, it MAY do more harm than good to make the Brand affordable to every income bracket. Also, the A-Class was probably not brought out here because American's were into the "BIG" SUV phase (Our streets are also wider I guess). So taking all this into account, in America, the lowest Benz will be seen as the cheap Benz. No one says that about Toyota because that is not what Toyota is known for.

Spyke

It was my dad's... we always had VWs growing up so it's got a bit of sentimental value.

I had a similar experience with Aston Martins; When I was 17 I met a guy at the local university who had an Aston for sale, relatively dirt cheap. I think he wanted to buy some other car, but I've forgotten the details now. Anyway, being that I made about $3/hour at the time, it was still expensive to me. Sure would be nice to get that same offer today though... I did eventually buy a rather rare British car for a song. Low miles, great condition... but the car was a Jensen Healey, so 18 years later when I sold it, I felt lucky to get about what I paid for it...


And yes, I realize this is completely off topic, but so is the original question. Everyone knows when you call some thing "A poor man's" whatever, the "thing" can't be the same brand as the "whatever"... The 510 was a poor man's BMW, for instance. AND... that isn't even meant to be considered an insult. Or at least didn't used to be. Heck, in the case of the 510 it was meant as a compliment...

You youngins is just too durn pessimistic. I think it's all that Rap music ya'll listen too! :p

MB-BOB

IMO...

To the first question: YES. Because you already offer the car worldwide, and introducing just 15,000-20,000 C-Coupes/year in NA provides incremental revenues that helps to guarantee that MB can afford to stay in business and offer cars worldwide for the long haul. In NA, next to E-Class sales, C-Class sales are MB's bread and butter, nip-n-tuck with the ML...

To the second question: If you are an executive at Daimler-Chrysler and agree with YES to the previous question, then you wouldn't care about any answer to the second question... You sell cars worldwide and aren't the least concerned about catering to NA tastes as a priority.

spankdoggie

Actually, I think this whole thread is filled with many jackasses. I was once a car lover, but 2 stolen and stripped to the bones cars I once loved with all my heart (20-24 years old), and 9 years valet driving every car in existence (once upon a time) has made me numb to cars.

My road bicycle cost $6,000, and I get along better with my bicycle than someone driving some jackass mercedes (for all you image jackasses)...

I quit loving cars actually (too much pain), but my wife's car was totaled in a freeway felony hit and run, and she wants the same car, but they don't make Acura Integra GS vehicles anymore...

This C230 Coupe is the closest to the Acura she found.

spankdoggie

P.S. You *******s that think because you have money to buy a car (As we all do on this forum; I will pay cash)

This is the truth: If you are a silver spoon youngster under 25 here...

You can kiss my ***. Kiss it. Kiss my ***!!!!!!!

I am glad I had nothing growing up... I am glad I had nothing...

Dammit, if I had a nickle for every spoiled rich kid ******* I chastised, I would be rich....

JeT

I think in any non-European country Benz is considered a luxury car. Hell, we pay nearly a 35% luxury car tax in Australia. But this idea that the reputation of the car is a function of price and not actual quality is all new to me.

junyo

Unforunately an executive would have to care. Yes, you sell cars worldwide but a) thanks to the American obsession with cars and b) the woeful lack of public transportation infrastructure in the US (in large part thanks to a.) and c) the availablity of relatively cheap fuel, NA is the largest automobile market on Earth for the time being; and as the largest consumers our percieved needs and/or desires will factor into any carmakers decisionmaking process. Why is everyone suddenly making SUVs? Large portions of the world's car driving population, I dare say the majority, have no use or desire to own these vehicles. But they are the fashion in NA, so they are being developed and produced. Look at how the bottom dropped out of the midrange sportcar market, not worldwide, just in NA, and look at how many models it took with it (Supra, 3000GT, 300Z, RX7, 240SX, Prelude). Only now are we seeing a resurgence.

Now to bend this back to the original point: If MB has to take into account their image and market position when they introduce a new car, which I think is a given, then they wouldn't introduce something they thought would be percieved, by the public at large, as a 'poor man's' anything. While others have said that in Europe MBs are 'just another car' they're certainly more than that in the US. Otherwise why did the big Japanese automakers form luxury divisions just to compete with 'the Germans'? And why do upscale American marques compare themselves to 'European imports'? Now, while you can certainly argue that the 230 is a tatical countermove, positioning an entry level sporty vehicle to compete with similiar vehicles by it's main competitors, how does it help MB to move downscale in a critical market? At minimum one would have to assume that MB is looking out for MB, correct?

Sorry I waited so long to enlighten you all, hope this clears up any and all questions on this topic, please settle your wagers, I'll be available for photo-ops, book signings and Nobel Peace Prize accepting anytime after 3PM EST (call first). I thank you...

trench

Maserati is now owned by Ferrari. Maserati essentially allows Ferrari to increase volume by selling cheaper cars (~$80-100K) without sullying their more valuable namepate. Took a look at Maserati's newest offerings at the Laguna Seca Historics two weekends ago. The qualitiy is very good (the motors looked especially cool), but I found the exterior design a bit bland. In fact, my friends and I noticed later that we had walked by one earlier in the day in the parking lot without even giving it a second look.

As someone else posted, Aston Martin is now part of Ford's Premire Automotive Group (along with Volvo, Jaguar and Land Rover) - it is this group that will have to now support the Jaguar F1 team's budget, which I don't think will happen (I think Jag will be gone from F1 by 2004 unless a major sponsor, perhaps Red Bull, signs on). I think that Aston Martin will remain in existence - although it won't suprise me any if the basic chassis will be shared with a higher volume Jaguar version. Shoot, it may even be this way now - the new DB looks about the same size as the XK8 (saw one of the new DBs at Laguna Seca as well).

Lotus has been kicking around in obscurity so long now (it's not even English anymore - owned by a Malasian company), that I think if they went out of business no one would even notice. How long can they contiune to exist selling a 25-year old chassis as well as a little roadster that can't even be sold in the US due to it's failure to survive the crash tests. I'm with you on this one.

Cheers, BT