pnoyworx

No MB can not void your warranty on a non-certif oil alone. The oil must fail minimum requirements in the oil blend, not on certifications. Think of a certification as a right to have a seal on the brand stating it has passed those minimal requirements, and this seal cost A WHOLE LOT to have it printed or stamped on your product. Most oils now are pretty safe. It is these independent additives that create the problem. Since most oils already have some sort of additive such as detergents... adding another additive will most likely change the original oil's property to work as it claims, then the dealer may void your warranty.

Glyn M Ruck

I have had plenty to do with the FTC in my career & in fact was on the FTC "clean team" for our company's large merger some years back.

You are talking API classifications. Benz is talking hard testing and approval. API is a self approval process with payment for the use of it's symbols.

The fact is that Benz does void warranty successfully in the USA. They are able to do this because they can claim that they give owners more than adequate choice - see listing - and it is easy for them to show where an oil fails to meet their requirements & that it is detrimental to their engines.

Most products that fail their testing regime fail in one or another key performance area that has no alignment with API. e.g. HTHS. It is very easy to demonstrate that a product fails HTHS & will result in accelerated wear of the valvetrain.

I would be fascinated to hear if you have an example of where Benz has had to reinstate a voided warranty due to legal action against them in the US.

pnoyworx

With no disrespect to you and your background. Please provide proof that MB has voided warranties based on the DIRECT proof that the oil was cause due to it not having API or other requirements "printed", and or licensed. MB will and can void warranty, that is not the question. As I stated, MB can void your warranty for many things, but they MUST prove that it is the DIRECT cause of the failure. I too would be fascinated to see what you claim, then again, MB knows where their legal battle begins before they drag anything into legal territory. MB be would have a hard time proving other oils are not adequate for their engine, that is why MOST OILS are still able to legally print and legally recommend their brand, even if it's not in the manufactures list. BTW... I am only backing up the oils that I have used and done a advanced consumer level homework. I have no clue on the other brands practices and background. But I speak highly about Amsoil, Mobil 1, Lubro Moly, Pentosin, and a little bit of Castrol based on my experience with them.

Amsoil has a thing for debates because of it's lack of certifications, but NO company has ever proven them wrong in over the years since it was first to introduce syntethic oil. NO car maker has ever made a legal data proven bulletin denouncing Amsoil for its quality or it's claim. AMSOIL has never had to use it's own warranty based on a user having it's factory warranty voided because of it's oil. In my years that I have used Amsoil, I too have been skeptical so I kept on reading and doing my homework.

BTW. Most Mobil 1 "Synthetics" Sold here in the US are not 100% synthetic.

Again, I know most of you know more about OIL or the auto manufacturers themselves. But I know my rights as a consumer, no dealer will ever just tell me my warranty is void without certain proof, and I will not hesitate to to press them to give me all the angles of their results as my right. But after all that and it still proves that I was a at fault for using a part or liquid then so be it. I know when to accept defeat. I just want you guys to know.. I am not here to argue with you or claim I know better, actually when threads like this show up it encourages me to do more research. I guess my side of the fight here is the rights we have here in the US as consumers, where laws are screwed up as much as it's there to protect us.

pnoyworx

MB sheet 229.51 approved oils; low ash long life
Mercedes pioneered this new spec for passenger cars with diesel engines with exhaust particulate filters, and gasoline engines, and longer service life than the 229.31 oils. The spec was introduced in 2005. Change intervals increased to 20,000 kilometers. Based on ACEA A3 B4 and C3.

Amsoil European Car Formula 5W-40
Anglomoil RoadMaster 500 API SM 10W-40
Aral SuperTronic 229.51 0W-40 LOW SAPS
Aral SuperTronic Diesel 229.51 0W-40 LOW SAPS
Bizol New Generation SAE 5W-30 (added 09 July 2007)
Castrol EDGE Formula RS SAE 0W-40 (added 09 July 2007)
Castrol EDGE Turbodiesel SAE 0W-30 (added 09 July 2007)
Castrol Longtec Turbodiesel 0W-30 (229.51)
ELF Solaris LSX 5W-30
Fuchs TITAN GT1 229.51 SAE 5W-30 (first fill oil in OM 642)
megol Motorenoel New Generation SAE 5W-30
Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 (to become available in the USA on 15 May 2006)
Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 Emission System Protection (Europe, from December 2005)
OMV BIXXOL special C3 SAE 5W-30 (added 09 July 2007)
Pentosynth HC 5W-40 (added December 2007)
Shell Helix Ultra AX 5W-30 Mercedes 229.51
Sunoco Synturo Xenon SAE 5W30 (added 09 July 2007)
Valvoline SynPower MST 5W-30 229.51 (added 01 June 2006)
Valvoline SynPower 5W-40 229.51 (added November 2007)
Valvoline SynPower 20W-50 229.51 (added November 2007)


MB sheet 229.3 approved oils
for passenger cars with gas and diesel engines with extended drain interval indicator FSS up to 20,000 km, or 40,000 km - 25,000 mi, current minimum spec for 1998+ MB engines, min. 1.0% fuel saving compared to 229.1, based on ACEA A3 B4. For gas engine of the M100 series, gas engines of the M200 series and diesel engines of the OM600 series (not models with diesel particulate filter).

AGIP EXTRA HTS 5W-40
AGIP Synthetic PC 0W-40
AGIP Eurosport 0W-40
Amsoil 5W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil
Amsoil 10W-30 Synthetic
Amsoil Series 3000 5W-30 Heavy Duty Diesel
Aral HighTronic 5W-40
Aral SuperSynth 0W-40
Aral Super Tronic 0W-40
Aviasynth 0W-40
Castrol DCO TOPUP SAE 0W-30
Castrol Formula RS Road and Track 5W-40
Castrol GTX7 DYNATEC 5W-40
Castrol Formula SLX 0W-30
Castrol TXT SOFTEC PLUS 5W-30
CIFAB Synthoil Hydrocrack HC7 5W-40
Elf Excellium LDX SAE 5W-40
Esso Ultron 0W-30 (fuel economy)
Esso Ultron 5W-40
Fuchs Silkolene Pro S 5W-40 - 100% Synthetic Oil For All Race Engines
Fuchs Silkolene Pro S 10W-50 - 100% Synthetic Oil For All Race Engines
Fuchs Titan SuperSyn SL 0W-30
Havoline Synthetic DS 0W-30
Kendall GT-1 Full Synthetic 5W-40
Liqui Moly Diesel Synthoil 5W-40
Liqui Moly High Tech 5W-40
Liqui Moly HC7 5W-40
LUKOIL SYNTEETIK 5W-40
Mobil 1 SuperSyn European Car Formula 0W-40
Mobil 1 SuperSyn 5W-40
Mobil 1 SuperSyn 5W-50
Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel 0W-40
Mobil Synt S 5W-40
Mobil Synt S Turbo Diesel 5W-40
Mobil Syst S 5W-40
Motul 8100 E-Tech 0W-40
Motul 8100 X-cess 5W-40
Pennzoil Synthetic European Formulation 5W-40
Pentosin Pentospeed 0W-30 VS
Q8 Formula Excel 5W-40
Quaker State Full Synthetic European Formulation 5W-40
Schaeffer Micron Moly 5W-30, 10W-40
Schaeffer Supreme 7000 5W-30, 10W-30, 20W-50
76 Pure Synthetic Motor Oil 5W-40
Shell Helix Plus S 5W-40 (Mercedes-Benz)
Shell Helix Ultra 5W-30, 0W-40, 5W-40
Sunoco Synturo Gold 5W-40 (introduced January 2002)
Total FINA First 5W-40
Total Quartz 9000 5W-40
Valvoline DuraBlend MXL 5W-40
Valvoline SynPower MXL 0W-30
Valvoline SynPower 5W-30, 0W-40, 5W-40, 20W-50
Veedol POWERTRON 5W-30
Veedol SYNTRON 0W-30

AD.

Couldn't agree with you more.

Not to mention how put off I am by their direct marketing strategies. Those who support Amsoil seem to have the same cult-vigor as the kool-aid chugging inhabitants of Jonestown.

They could make a great oil, but I'll never know because I won't use it for the reasons stated above.

Glyn M Ruck

What is all this crap about? 229.3 is an ancient spec & was superseded in 2004. 229.5 has been the spec for all gasoline engines since then. You are extremely confused. 229.51 is for diesel passenger car with Cat & particulate filter <0.8% ash. Don't you have the intellect to question why AMSOIL has no 229.5 approved product? It's very simple. They don't have one that meets the specs - 229.51 is a far easier spec to meet.

mhad2480

Seems like Glyn is getting his feathers ruffled. Can't say that I blame him though, I've been reading this thread for a while now in hopes of gaining some knowledge and honestly still can't believe this debate is still ongoing. As consumers, yes you have the right to use what ever oil you want. Just don't expect MB to honor the warranty. They clearly give a list of oils that are approved and recommended for their specific engines, components, alloys etc. If you choose to use an oil that is not on the list for whatever reason it may be, brand loyalty, sale price or whatever, that's on you. I for one don't want to chance a several thousand dollar repair bill to save a few bucks on oil changes, but that's just me.

pnoyworx

Sorry friend but 229.51 is not just for diesel. Also 229.5 is older than 229.3
229.5 introduced 2002, 229.3 7/2003 and newest 229.51 2005. 229.5 also requires fleece filters.

Glyn M Ruck

You really need to take some time to read this forum. All these things have been covered previously.

Let's cover your spurious comments on some Mobil products not being 100% synthetic. I don't know why I'm defending the competition but we try to inform our members as best we can so a quote from the past that I've repeated many times as it affects all of the industry.

"Full synthetic or very high Group number base oils, GpIII & above have their downfalls. Additive miscibility steadily becomes more & more of an issue. i.e. the additive will not dissolve or disperse in the base oil.

So to achieve the desired performance we use the synthetic base fluid for the high VI, oxidation stability etc. properties it brings to the formulation while using a small proportion of petroleum base stock as a co-solvent to get the additives into the blend & stable.

100% synthetic is not always better - in fact far from it."

Regarding voiding of warranty - Don't get smart with me & try & turn the tables. You have failed to answer my question - namely "I would be fascinated to hear if you have an example of where Benz has had to reinstate a voided warranty due to legal action against them in the US."

During my time at our research facilities in the US I can think of 100's of cases of Benz voiding warranty due to failures while not using approved products as mandated. They used our forensic failure labs from time to time. They are not the only OEM to do so either. As I have mentioned before we had a new ML have it's engine warranty voided the other day. You can search for that. You have to understand that it is not that difficult to establish the failure mode.

Now - let's take the new 722.9 7G Tronic Plus transmission used from late 2010 by Benz in Blue Efficiency models etc. There is 1 approved genuine fluid at present developed jointly by Shell, Afton, and Fuchs. This is a highly advanced fluid with difficult base oil requirements. I suppose you think Benz should not void the warranty if they find some clown has put Dexron II into it

FTC driven legislation is designed to be fair to both consumer & OEM.

Glyn M Ruck

Crap!

Glyn M Ruck

229.3 oils were developed earlier but launched main stream in 1998.

229.51 oils are primarily designed for diesel with Cat & particulate filter. They can be used in certain low tech non Mercedes petrol engines.

As said previously. Benz has mandated that no one product can meet 229.5 & 229.51. See my previous post on ash clamping levels.

229.5 was only factory fill from MY 2004.

Blown Polyester "fleece" filter is now only mandated for 6 cylinder and above gasoline engines. It is not for use in diesel & it's no longer required for M271 & derivatives.

pnoyworx

Ok Glyn your vast knowledge has debunked any proven data performed, you can sleep now assured your job is safe.

kevink2

There are a lot of Mobil1's out there, and some are no better than Amsoil and other synthetics. But only a few pass the rigerous ACEA A3 Test for High temp high shear.

Many car MFG's now require that the oil be selected from a specified list, like 229.5 for Mercedes gas engines (not just Mobil1), or dexos2 for GM vehicles, preceeded by a list GM6094M in 2008.

No FACT here as you described.

The MB 229.5 oils are for up to 10K miles or more. Get your "Facts strait, and don't use old "facts".

Sorry, but link did not work, and no links for test results.

The 4 ball wear test is questionable as to how the results should be interpreted, as the minimal test speed only relates to the cam speed at 6000 crank rpms.

Mobil1 5W30 is not Mobil1's best product.


You have just been talking mobil1 5W-30 oil, one data point.

Likely as you said, Big co doesn't worry about Small co.

same as above


like I said, no link for A.N.Mag, and provided link doesn't work

You found facts for 1 oil that MB does NOT recommend or allow, per 229.5 . How about the ~60 approved oils?

IMO, it's obvious with Mobil1 being a large corporation (with it's papa being Exxon, even larger) its common sense that they would do whatever is necessary to increase profit margin to make the most money possible. The marketing strategy is also different between the two, while Amsoil chooses to remain small by going direct with distributors (smart) Mobil1 goes with the huge corporate conglomerates for there distribution. I also believe, although Amsoil is a smaller company, the reason they exist is because they have proved to out preform Mobil1 and Mobil1 has yet to say anything to counter claim...well anything. So if Mobil1 has all this money with it being a huge corporation, why haven't they done so? It's clear folks, because maybe they know they can't win against a head to head battle. Now is this to say that Mobil1 is bad? Heck no, you and I both know that they have more than enough money to put into R&D to develop a better, longer lasting oil than it's current Mobil1. But, why in the world would they do that? It would kill their profits as a company. So the bottom line, there are such things as bad oil companies and good oil companies. Both Mobil1 and Amsoil are obviously good so I'll use whatever is cheapest when it comes time to change diapers because they'll both do the job. However, if one wants to argue which oil is best and if cost isn't a factor...which I wouldn't think it would be if you're driving a MB....but anyway.... than obviously AMSOIL is a better oil than Mobil1. [/QUOTE]

Bunch of hypothetical dribble. It's up to Amsoil to go through the approval process, and they chose not to ... hypothisise on that.

Your easiliy amused. Most people, who don't relay on the dealer to put in Mobil 1 5W-40 most of the time, will look at places like this to get guidance on which approved oil gives the best protection. In our case, Castrol 0W30 had the proper (latest) temperature range, ans was approved.

I respect Amsoil. I first used their grease back in the 80's, to avoid front wheel bearing grease from "boiling" out a small hole in a hole in the grease cap, when tracking the car on road course with a fast long strait followed by a hard right at aabout 45 mph.

Back then they mostly sold to 18 wheelers, and farm machinery that ran flat out all the time.




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please click on User CP at the top left of page, just below the thread title. Then add the following to either Profile and/or Signature , selecting buttons on the left side of that page:

year, model, if it's a diesel, Sport or Lux, 4MATIC or RWD, Location (city & state), and non-US country if applicable.

This helps others respond to issues, like tires, spring options, part sales, etc. Thanx


.

Glyn M Ruck

You should be a little apologetic about posting crap. But most of your ilk don't care.

I'm happily retired but still consulting. Job preservation is not an issue - not that it ever was.

Mernt

I have spent considerable time researching oil and talking to various people in the industry. What Glyn has said is spot on. Listen to him and be glad he is here to provide us with this information.

Amsoil has a few nice oils, but I would not put them above Mobil 1.

Amsoil uses to many marketing gimmicks for my taste.

4 ball wear test is a gear oil test.

Mernt

ExxonMobil owns Infineum along with Shell. ExxonMobil also is a leading producer of the world’s best base oils. Amsoil is actually a customer of theirs. Mobil 1 is their flagship product and always among the top oils on the market. The 4 ball test is an example of slick marketing. The test has no real world validity to how an oil behaves in an actual engine. This is why expensive engine sequence testing is done. For example –ASTM SEGIIIG and IVA.

Engine Oil Performance Testing

"I have seen a number of lubricant manufacturers refer to the 4-ball wear scar test as an indicator of how well the oil will protect an engine. Other larger companies tend to brush off the results of this test indicating that it isn't representative of actual engine conditions adding that because it is cheap to run, the results aren't worth much. What are your thoughts on this?"

The 4-ball test (ASTM D4172) is often used as a screening test for many different lubricant types that contain antiwear additives or similar base oil properties. Other tribo-mechanical bench tests are often used as well, including the Timken Test (ASTM D2782) and the Pin and V-Block (ASTM D2670). Because engines have different contact geometry, loads, metallurgy and speeds, numerous bench tests and test protocols are needed. It is not uncommon for several oils to be tested using two such methods and to find that the performance rankings between the oils to reverse (no correlation). This is why, among other reasons, Passenger Car Motor Oils and Heavy Duty Oils (diesel crankcase) are tested in actual engines using controlled methods such as ASTM D5533 Sequence IIIE and D5302 Sequence VE.

Jim Fitch, Noria Corporation"

Mernt

http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Ch...asestocks.aspx

Domm

On a lighter note, I don't think there will be any other posts regarding approved oils since you all (especially Glyn) scared off anyone doubting MB's approved oil list.

DonjuanOriginal

Interesting thread. Thanks for all the info.

My last 3 cars used different synthetic oil in all. Castrol syntech., Mobil 1, and royal purple(which i liked very much). Royal Purple not an approved 229.5 oil. Call me crazy My benz won't see it. And i get a good deal on RP.

Just an opinion. I know my motor will run well with the mobil 1 0w-40 i use. for the everyday owner that's all they need to know.

Glyn M Ruck

+1 - pleased someone does their homework. Noria Corp is a fine organisation. And yes, AMSOIL is indeed a customer of ExxonMobil as are many.

splinter

Seriously. At least I'm a decent enough man to readily admit when I've ****ed up.

C300Sport

I don't know, I heard about this Snake Oil stuff that is supposed to be better than all the rest. I may have to try it out even though it's not on the list. They even have a new Super Snake Formula that looks pretty awesome in the ads....

Glyn M Ruck

And you cancelled your post above agreeing with RLE

C300Sport

LOL...yea I decided not to wade into this one at the time but couldn't help myself this morning.

iunlock

Haha ...that's hilarious. Well buddy I think you're wrong because I just changed my oil a few days ago with Mobil1 because it was on sale. Next time who knows if Amsoil is cheaper than who knows...

Sorry you thought wrong. Actually very wrong.