^^^Agreed, been saying that for awhile now. It's baffling to me that such a simple concept is so difficult. Obviously the ECU has been cracked so tuners are able to make tweaks. So how can they not see a side by side to understand the differences and match the 350.

I have a feeling the 350 probably doesn't even put more than 275 to the wheels.

But even if that were the case, a bump to 275 at the wheels for a C300 would be worth it (less so for the 4matic)

Agreed, thus why if someone could just show a dyno chart anywhere near 275 I would be sold haha.

I think we'd all appreciate it even if you just posted the stock numbers Terrence...
I want someone in my city to do it just so we can show a comparison, but even a base run wherever your are might be helpful.

I agree. I was always under the impression that the C350 was in direct competition with the Audi S4 and BMW 335i

Based on Dyno numbers that shows me that the C350 and Mercedes Benz completely missed their mark with their target market.

Im scratching my head with this one. What I honestly want is a high 12 second everyday driver that looks good. With tuning I was hoping that would be achievable with a C300 but apparently not. A C350... 50k car with over 300 hp runs 14's stock? thats pitiful and a waste of money.

I agree with others in this thread. We need to see what a C350 puts down stock with and without 4matic and I know I am concerned with their tuned 1/4 mile time. One of the selling points for me when I made this purchase was the cars sportiness and the ability to simply "turn it into a c350" based on tons of research with what information was available at the time.

I love the C63 however I live in PA therefor a C63 is not practical. I refuse to purchase a 80k car just to have it sit in the garage 6 months out of the year.. whats the point of that. I wanted a great handling and sporty sedan that is notably quick yet can be driven all year round with confidence. The C300 M276 completes all of these for me but with these numbers coming up on here I am now skeptical that It will complete the last requirement.. I am just not sure..

I watched a dyno video of a E63 and it was way way under rated... i was hoping that was the case with the M276 as well. Apparently it is over rated which is a huge disappointment.

Only more quality graphs and maybe some time slips coming may or may not prove the big question of actual performance. If this does not work out I may have to hop on the Audi S4 or 335i band wagon depending on peoples opinions of the C450 in a year or so.

The F30 335 is so much quicker than our cars they don't even compare haha. We did a side by side comparison when we bought this car. The ONLY reason we opted for the MB was due to it being a much more comfy car.

I already DD a pretty rigid rough vehicle. We didn't want another one. The 335 is a sports sedan, this is a "luxury" sedan with some sport haha.

I have never driven a 335i. Maybe I should. I am a very performance/ handling oriented guy.

When the time comes I will test drive s 335i and the C450. With tuning I would certainly hope the C450 would be a 12 second car (considering the 2015 4cyl C300 tuned is a 13.7 second car) The 335i I know nothing about.

Measuring Versus Guessing
 

With all due respect it appears to me Kleemann is a reputable company experienced with tuning, for example, various AMG models as can be easily evidenced on their web page, and available via email, with reliable repeatable data. With reference to the C300 Models available with the M276 Engine (3.5 Litre) there is a lack of data to support the claims of "up to 330 HP". I have researched this and found that their claim, at this point is nothing more than hearsay evidence. Surprisingly, there is a lack of dyno data to support the up to 330 HP. Which leads to inquire herein: "How without a dyno or any published standard of measuring did the company come up with this number initially? Does anyone here know definitively how this HP math was determined without measuring?

They figured that the C350 makes around 300 hp. They figured there tuning was worth 'something' so decided on 10%.

300 + 30 = 330.

That is my guess. Until you see unbiased dyno tests before and after than that is all I suspect that Kleeman / EC etc did.

I would jump all over a tune if it was proven to be what it is.

I agree with the above posts. This is nothing against Kleenans, however I do agree that advertising "numbers" without backing those numbers up seems like a poor business decision.

Nobody on this forum would believe me if I claimed to tune my own vehicle and run an 11 flat quarter without proof.
Therefore I agree with many other forum members that proof is needed.

There is a video on the main page of this website right now about a 2015 C300 before and after tuning 1/4 mile runs providing proof of what the tune in that car yielded.

$1300 plus tax and shipping is pretty steep without charts / documented 1/4 runs etc. if the tune was $400 then I could understand not being so skeptical however for most people we are talking a months mortgage payment that we would essentially be taking a gamble on. In fact we do not even know what we are getting there is still lack of proof. We have 1 dyno run that leaves us scratching our heads and guessing. No disrespect to the man who posted it. We appreciate his effort. However I agree with the other members. I need to see a 1/4 mile run in the low 13's / high 12's or a dyno run showing north of 275 hp.

Just my 2 cents

Unfortunately where I live there is no drag strip or dyno close. I would have to rent a car to send my ECU out unless I do it when I take a vacation some time in the future or when my wife takes vacation. So getting this tune done for me is a huge deal. I need to be 100% sure that I am getting every bit of what I am paying for in order to validate taking vacation to have this done or renting a car etc. so for me the tune is going to cost me well over just the cost of the tune

It would actually be pretty darn simple for Kleemans in my opinion. Offer to tune a guys car for free in return that guy authorizes the use of his vehicle as a test platform. Kleenans tunes it showing before and after dyno charts. They disclose what octane fuel is used as well as what air filter for each run. Then they take the car to the track and do stock vs tuned. Video everything and show charts and time slips in the video. If the results are what they claim we already know thousands of finally convinced people would have no trouble handing over the cash. They simply need to invest more into their own work for the public to feel confident with their tuning in this particular vehicle.

This is not a cheap used Honda we are talking about here we are talking about a 45-50k car. They want people to trust them with their expensive vehicle they need to earn that trust.

Measuring Versus Guessing Part 2
 

Power to Weight Ratio: 10.91
60 Foot E.T. : 1.80
1/8 Mile E.T. : 8.15
1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 83.39
1/4 Mile E.T. : 12.92
1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 104 MPH

Above is the expected results given below:
330 HP in a 3600 Lb C300 17 Inch Tire
Kleemann's claim available for C300 owners

Power to Weight Ratio: 14.52
60 Foot E.T. : 1.97
1/8 Mile E.T. : 8.97
1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 75.82
1/4 Mile E.T. : 14.21
1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 94


Above is the expected results given below:
248 STOCK HP in a 3600 LB C300 17 Inch Tire
Mercedes Benz HP Ratings for C300 Sport Sedans / Coupes
Are listed as 248. I would imagine they measured.......

If you run in the high 12s you will know it.
Also, you know when you are not. :zoom:

C300s should weigh in with an average 175-180 LB driver near 4000 Lbs curb weight. That is with the M276 Engine (3.5 Litre) to be clear.


This is what I mean by measuring. Whenever Kleemann comes up with data they should let everyone know if the intake system was modified in any way, along with whether there were headers installed or a higher flowing exhaust system.


I am a newbie herein, but the lack of data is stunning.


I have written this as to state to get 330 HP is NOT impossible. But for paying out money and expect to go from 248 HP to 330 is + 72 HP gain. I am not skeptical just merely asking for more definitive information. I can see the number for a 302 HP unit in the C350. That is a 9% gain, not unheard of given all the detuning the EPA requires here in the USA.


Maybe their claim that the firmware, albeit is different in the C300s versus the C350 can be made the sane in the end remains to be seen.


Hopefully, Kleemannn will get wind of this and start coming up with a dyno effort.


I have been working in the auto and trucking industry for 28 years and this doesn't seem unreasonable to request.

Even if you end up at 300 hp versus 248 hp that is a bonus.

All very valid points being made here. And I really do regret not running a baseline before shipping out the ECU for my ride.
As mentioned in my posts for the dyno, I am wanting to do another set of runs when I get to San Diego...just to see the difference between dyno's and altitude effects.
I'd also like someone in the Calgary area to run a stock '13 C300 on the same dyno.

I want valid proof as well that will state real numbers. I received no deals from Kleemann for actually posting my numbers when nobody else would/could....but I would really like to get some complete validation of the work.

I pity them if my numbers in San Diego come back with something more significant or if a stock run shows the same numbers in town.

FWIW it really runs 14.8 @ 97mph stock.

A C350 4matic stock runs 14.0 @ 101mph

Either that calculator is off quite a bit or the HP numbers MB is putting up are off a lot.
Car and Driver for both numbers

One of the best, most reasoned responses to the whole tuning issue I have seen on this site. The technical analysis of what any tuning vendor, regardless of vehicle model, should be able to readily supply to prospective customers in order to back up their claims of not only of power gained, but also of safety of operation, that would prove their workmanship, is excellent. Great post! :bow:

That is what I was attempting to say earlier.

What makes matters worse is that 2015 4 CYLINDER with a tune runs 13.7 sec in the quarter.. What a kick in the pants! However all that was published were track numbers we do not know what the 2015 c300 4 matic puts down at the wheels with a chart.

There must be a ton of hidden potential in that new 2015 4 cylinder in the c300 to surpass C350 times and power with just a tune. Single turbo correct?

I find it hard to believe that a tuned 2013-14 C300/C350 can't do better than a tuned 2015 4 cylinder... if this is true it will definitely keep my money in my pocket and I will be upgrading vehicles as soon as my lease is up rather than keeping mine and tuning it.. That C450 is becoming more and more tempting. I can't imagine what numbers it could post up at the track if the 4 cylinder is already running 13.7's . I bet the C450 would be capable of 400 plus flywheel hp with a tune.... can't wait to see videos popping up on youtube. If it runs what I hope it will that will be my next purchase. There are allot of C450 flame wars going on right now but what these people fail to understand is the C63 is missing one very important must have feature for allot of people... 4 matic. I HAVE TO HAVE AWD where i live. The C450 solves this problem for me... I get a sports sedan that has good power and I can drive it year round with some all season radials. sign me up. The CLA 45 I am personally not fond of. I do not like the look at all and I really enjoy the comfort of the C class much better.

The trick is forced induction. It's superior in every way that naturally aspirated can't accomplish. On top of it, simple matter of a tune to alter the boost increases the power substantially.

Sorry but V6 doesn't even compare to most I4 turbos these days.

I'll have to check the forums. But the 335 with a pure stage II turbo and tune which maybe costs 3k is yielding in the high 400's hp and toque lol.

I bought this car for comfort believe me, because we test drove the F30 and its superior in performance in almost every way.

Thanks for the reply. I am new to turbos and still a fairly new MB owner. I love the style, comfort of my 2014 AMG sport C300 however I have gasoline in my veins and I always simply put find myself wanting more. The handling is not terrible but I feel the steering is way to light to do any type of hard corner and hold the corner steady. I even just dropped $1100 on Michiline Pilot Sport A/S 3's. The tires are phenomenally better than the Pirelli P Zero Neros that were on it but the tires did not change steering feel. I like steering that is tight and solid. To light of steering canyon carving is not fun, i find my car oversteers like crazy trying to hold corners because the steering is not tight enough. I have driven other vehicles where the steering feel was superb. It feels like you are pushing against something in the steering which prevents that oversteer when cornering. That is not present in my 2014 C300 and I hate it.

The power is definitely lacking. I like the sound of the engine but I find myself wanting way more out of what I paid for the car. My C300 was in the showroom at my local MB dealer and stickers at 46k i will never purchase a vehicle again with standard headlights.. My c300 has the standard headlights as I could not see spending $3000 just for Bi xenons... what were they thinking? My previous car was a lexus IS250 it had HID's from the factory and I did not realize how much I loved them until I purchased the Benz without them.

Anyway I got off topic there. I really just find myself wanting more with my car. It is the most comfortable car I have ever owned... the stereo Harmon Kardon does not seem like it is upgraded at all. It lacks allot of bass imo.

I am learning allot from these forums.. I now know that If i want to upgrade a car that i need to start with a good baseline and that is an engine that has forced induction, it will yield the most bang for the buck in performance gains.

I just want a good quality sports sedan that is all wheel drive.. that can run in the 12's (safely without harming the engine over time - daily driver), and handle really well with quality tight steering feel that has a real top of the line sound system with good bass. I guess 50k does not buy that? lol


I think i found a way to sum up my opinion pretty well here....

I feel like my C300 looks way more sporty than it really is... It looks great! however when you get in the experience does not live up to what you were looking at as you were walking up to and strapping yourself in to the cockpit. You are somehow let down... You find yourself thinking... man I was expecting more... and I think that is because of the way the car looks...

I have formulated this opinion over time.. there is no way I could have come to these conclusions during a 15 minute test drive.. It has taken me several years of driving to put my finger on exactly what I do not like.. Its not as simple as oo i want a fast car.. so i go buy one of those... no... I want something much more complex... my next car has to do allot of things perfectly not one thing.

Of course I have to stay in budget.. If budget were not an option then I would choose an E63 S ... because it meets all of my criteria.. 4 matic. but I can not afford right now a car that costs half has much as my house. $1500 a month payment... I don't think so. There has to be another solution and I think with continuing to talk with all of you it will in the end help me make up my mind on exactly what I need to purchase next when my lease is up...

any updates on this how many people are getting this done? seems intriguing does it void warranty?

I wonder how many people are actually getting this done. Doesn't seem like too many people are actually willing to put up that kind of money. Understandably so considering neither Kleemann or Eurocharged will actually post comparison numbers.
I took the chance as it really is the only performance enhancing thing we can do with our M276 engines right now. It worked out quite well, though some of their claims are a little off as I am still experiencing some throttle lag when I'm in motion and really push the pedal down.

I'm still anxious to get down to the south coast and get on a dyno down there to see what I hit for numbers at sea level. Theoretically, I'm losing about 12% due to altitude...

whats the cost of this by the way pm me if you don't want to post it :) this might be in my near future depending if they post more results or members decide to post more about it

If your talking about the 3.5 liter C300/350 2013-14 tune it's about $1300.

That is what this discussion is all about is it worth it. A stock C350 runs a 14 second quarter mile. The tune gives a C350 / C300up to a "claimed" 330 flywheel hp. So maybe 13.8? Quarter mile?

Also there is zero documentation provided by Kleemans the tuning company backing up their claims of 330 flywheel hp for both C350 / C300 2013-14.

My point in skipping this tune for my 14 C300 is a tuned 2015 C300 turbo 4 cylinder runs 13.7 in the quarter. Personally to me that's pathetic that the W204 is such a slow turd. I am holding on to my money and adding that to a down payment on a C450 or C400 or maybe even a 335i.

The only thing that will make me change my mind is if a person submits proof that with this Kleemans tune they are running faster than expected, IE very low 13's high 12's. My personal opinion a 12 second everyday driver in a luxury sports sedan is respectable anything less than that I will pass. Stock 335i runs 13.1? With a tune low 12's? High 11's with an aggressive tune and some bolt on's from what I have read.

Everyone has their own opinion of course. That is mine.

Best of luck with whatever you choose.

guess your right hahaha. well GOD knows if I'll ever buy a benz again they can't even do the service right at the dealership..... its actually pretty sad and disheartening.

I used to be a gear head about 10 years ago had a 550 rwhp Z28.

Now that I am older my tastes have changed. I prefer luxury, comfort, engineering and quality over buying some cheap used Camaro or mustang and dumping paychecks in it. Anyone teenager / gear head can buy a cheap used sports car and sink pay check after pay check into it and make it fast. Now that I am older I realize I wanted to do something not everyone can do and that's walk into a MB dealership and walk out with a 50k car. (Especially where I live where 12 bucks an hour seems to be "good money")

I am new to MB and I am learning more everyday and I wish the C350 had been available in a sedan which it was not so I had little choice C300. Had I known better at the time I would have at least test drove an S4 and a 335i but caught up in the allure of owning a MB. Next time I will not make that mistake.