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Waterless coolants?

 
Old 02-21-2014, 01:27 PM
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W204 2012 C250 CDI
Waterless coolants?

I have bought a C250 CDI 2012.Since i live in Cyprus the weather here is very hot. As i know the turbo works better in a cold environment i am searching what can i do to help my Car to cool down more so i can have a more "power". I am thinking to put a intercooler to help the car better. while i was searching i found this. Does anyone used this product or know anything about it?

http://www.evanscoolants.co.uk/news/...oduct-award/86
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Old 02-21-2014, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex_K View Post
I have bought a C250 CDI 2012.Since i live in Cyprus the weather here is very hot. As i know the turbo works better in a cold environment i am searching what can i do to help my Car to cool down more so i can have a more "power". I am thinking to put a intercooler to help the car better. while i was searching i found this. Does anyone used this product or know anything about it?

http://www.evanscoolants.co.uk/news/...oduct-award/86
I am certain that your C 250 CDI already has an intercooler.

The waterless coolant sounds interesting. . I wonder whether MB approve them ?

Here is one view from :- http://www.overclock.net/t/1302628/waterless-coolant

If you look at MSDS of evans coolant, it is ethylene glycol + propylene glycol + corrosion inhibitors. Nothing special at all about it. Other then the fact it will have ~1/3 heat capacity of water and 1/3 thermal conductance of water, and will have about 1/3 flow from thick viscosity of propylene glycol, and result in huge increase in core temps. Just 50% propylene glycol + water caused 8C worse core temps in skinneelabs testing. Now imagine no water at all, just all propylene gycol and eythylene glycol, so will increase core temps by significantly more than 8C.

In our pumps, there is no boiling and no cavitation, so no use at all for glycols. If you want anticorrosion, just get concentrated inhibitors without the glycol.

No intelligent reason to put 68% glycol, 30% propylene glycol, 2% inhibitors in one's car....let alone in a computer loop where the boiling/freezing temps are completely irrelevant. The only difference in a water loop you will see is MUCH higher core temps from combination of very poor thermal properties and much reduced flow from the thick viscosity of the glycol mix.

marketing hype aside, if the stuff was so great, all car manufactures would eliminate water and run same. You can buy all the ingredients for a few bucks at any chemical plant.

Last edited by Carsy; 02-21-2014 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 02-21-2014, 02:39 PM
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Perhaps I missed something in chemistry, but how can a liquid be waterless?
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Old 02-21-2014, 02:50 PM
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You missed something , eg alcohol, fuels, oils, etc.
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Old 02-21-2014, 03:18 PM
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I agree with what has been said.

And I'll add, not sure, if our thermostat's are electronically controlled, but a lower temperature opening thermostat might be beneficial, but it depends on how low our thermostats already do open at.

An intercooler is definitely the most beneficial to cool down intake air; replacing the stock one with a thicker core, or large area would be beneficial. A nice water/alcohol injection would help when you do want to put the power down. Now sure how easy it is in these cars, but hey, look into it!

Lastly, a tune would be beneficial as well
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Old 02-21-2014, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Carsy View Post
You missed something , eg alcohol, fuels, oils, etc.
But isn't it essentially derived from water? One of the 4 basic elements on earth?
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Old 02-21-2014, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by xXHotelCrazyXx View Post
But isn't it essentially derived from water? One of the 4 basic elements on earth?
Nope...many liquids have neither Hydrogen or Oxygen in them.
It's just that water is so common that is seems synonymous with liquid.
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Old 02-21-2014, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by xXHotelCrazyXx View Post
But isn't it essentially derived from water? One of the 4 basic elements on earth?

Just to clarify, water is not an element. Water is a molecule comprised of elements, specifically, hydrogen and oxygen atoms in a 2:1 ratio, therefore H20 is one molecule of water. There are plenty of liquids without water in them, including another element, mercury. Solids, liquids, and gases can change state among those conditions, depending on temperature. Here is a link to a periodic table of the elements.



Last edited by Sportstick; 02-21-2014 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 02-21-2014, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Carsy View Post
I am certain that your C 250 CDI already has an intercooler.

The waterless coolant sounds interesting. . I wonder whether MB approve them ?

Here is one view from :- http://www.overclock.net/t/1302628/waterless-coolant

If you look at MSDS of evans coolant, it is ethylene glycol + propylene glycol + corrosion inhibitors. Nothing special at all about it. Other then the fact it will have ~1/3 heat capacity of water and 1/3 thermal conductance of water, and will have about 1/3 flow from thick viscosity of propylene glycol, and result in huge increase in core temps. Just 50% propylene glycol + water caused 8C worse core temps in skinneelabs testing. Now imagine no water at all, just all propylene gycol and eythylene glycol, so will increase core temps by significantly more than 8C.

In our pumps, there is no boiling and no cavitation, so no use at all for glycols. If you want anticorrosion, just get concentrated inhibitors without the glycol.

No intelligent reason to put 68% glycol, 30% propylene glycol, 2% inhibitors in one's car....let alone in a computer loop where the boiling/freezing temps are completely irrelevant. The only difference in a water loop you will see is MUCH higher core temps from combination of very poor thermal properties and much reduced flow from the thick viscosity of the glycol mix.

marketing hype aside, if the stuff was so great, all car manufactures would eliminate water and run same. You can buy all the ingredients for a few bucks at any chemical plant.
Yes i was thinking of adding a bigger one or add another one..One person in Cyprus i talk with told me to put another one to help the turbos better... But i don't know if this will be good.
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Old 02-21-2014, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by paulo744 View Post
I agree with what has been said.

And I'll add, not sure, if our thermostat's are electronically controlled, but a lower temperature opening thermostat might be beneficial, but it depends on how low our thermostats already do open at.

An intercooler is definitely the most beneficial to cool down intake air; replacing the stock one with a thicker core, or large area would be beneficial. A nice water/alcohol injection would help when you do want to put the power down. Now sure how easy it is in these cars, but hey, look into it!

Lastly, a tune would be beneficial as well
The idea of put a thermostat that is start to cool the car in a lower temperature i don't think is very good since the fan will working more frequently. Right?
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Old 02-21-2014, 06:47 PM
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Guys what about Water / Methanol Injection Kits?

http://www.aemelectronics.com/water-...on-systems-52/
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Old 02-21-2014, 07:23 PM
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I wasn't referring to it as an element from the periodic table of elements Sportstick, I was referring to it as wind, fire, earth, and water
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Old 02-21-2014, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by xXHotelCrazyXx View Post
But isn't it essentially derived from water? One of the 4 basic elements on earth?
Your still missing!
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Old 02-21-2014, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by xXHotelCrazyXx View Post
I wasn't referring to it as an element from the periodic table of elements Sportstick, I was referring to it as wind, fire, earth, and water
Other than three of those making up one of the best bands of all time, none of them are elements according to any definition I know, so sorry if I'm a bit confused!!
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Old 02-21-2014, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
Other than three of those making up one of the best bands of all time, none of them are elements according to any definition I know, so sorry if I'm a bit confused!!
I just looked on google. Are you an astrology fan or a Wiccan? They seem to use "element" as you suggest.
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Old 02-21-2014, 08:09 PM
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el·e·ment
ˈeləmənt/
noun
noun: element; plural noun: elements; noun: chemical element; plural noun: chemical elements
1.
a part or aspect of something abstract, esp. one that is essential or characteristic.

I am not referring to the elements of the periodic table, but as the definition states, water being a part or aspect of something. H20 itself is not an element, but a substance or a compound.

Last edited by xXHotelCrazyXx; 02-21-2014 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 02-21-2014, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by xXHotelCrazyXx View Post
el·e·ment
ˈeləmənt/
noun
noun: element; plural noun: elements; noun: chemical element; plural noun: chemical elements
1.
a part or aspect of something abstract, esp. one that is essential or characteristic.

I am not referring to the elements of the periodic table, but as the definition states, water being a part or aspect of something. H20 itself is not an element, but a substance or a compound.
I get the common and chemical usage. It was the "four basic elements of earth" idea which threw me when trying to figure out if coolant could be made without water. Enough said.
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Old 02-21-2014, 09:11 PM
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No worries, still a bit cloudy for me to see something such as coolant to be made absolutely without h2o as a base.
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Old 02-21-2014, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Carsy View Post
I am certain that your C 250 CDI already has an intercooler.
During recent 49 degrees C weather recently I did a 2000km drive. The coolant temp never deviated from the 90 deg c and the power was normal. The only problem was the A/C had a hard job keeping the interior cool
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Old 02-21-2014, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by paulo744 View Post
I agree with what has been said.

And I'll add, not sure, if our thermostat's are electronically controlled, but a lower temperature opening thermostat might be beneficial, but it depends on how low our thermostats already do open at.

An intercooler is definitely the most beneficial to cool down intake air; replacing the stock one with a thicker core, or large area would be beneficial. A nice water/alcohol injection would help when you do want to put the power down. Now sure how easy it is in these cars, but hey, look into it!

Lastly, a tune would be beneficial as well
The thermostats primary job is to open when the engine reaches its optimum operating temperature. If you open it before it does that all you do is promote wear and waste fuel
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Old 02-21-2014, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by xXHotelCrazyXx View Post
No worries, still a bit cloudy for me to see something such as coolant to be made absolutely without h2o as a base.
The Merlin engine fitted to Mustangs/Spitfires and many other aircraft during WW2 used Glycol cooling. This was mainly for one reason and that was water would freeze at the temperatures reached when operating at a high altitude
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Old 02-21-2014, 11:38 PM
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But they still used water...

"Coolant
The P-51 Maintenance
Handbook recommends a
30/70% mixture of ethylene
glycol and water for warmer
climates and a 70/30% ethylene
glycol and water for extremely
cold climates."

http://www.51-factory.com/cooling_sy...aintenance.pdf

Last edited by xXHotelCrazyXx; 02-21-2014 at 11:40 PM.
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Old 02-22-2014, 01:47 AM
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Originally Posted by xXHotelCrazyXx View Post
I wasn't referring to it as an element from the periodic table of elements Sportstick, I was referring to it as wind, fire, earth, and water
Science has move beyond that paradigm.
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Old 02-22-2014, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
During recent 49 degrees C weather recently I did a 2000km drive. The coolant temp never deviated from the 90 deg c and the power was normal. The only problem was the A/C had a hard job keeping the interior cool
BD,

I don't think the MB engineers envisaged keeping the cab cool with that temp!!.

Yes, I agree , I am amazed how the engine coolant temp never varies. Says something for the controls & radiator capacity.

JC
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Old 02-22-2014, 01:49 AM
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Back on topic, waterless coolants are not good for most street cars.
They do not carry heat as well as a properly diluted glycol coolant.
Your car will run hotter with more variance in temp throughout the engine.


They are good for show cars that are in storage because the chance of corrosion is lower.
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