c4004matic

I own one of the best handling RWD cars ever made, the S2000 and I love it of course, however, aside from the easier drifting, I don't think that it offers any other benefits compared to a well setup AWD car like the C series. In fact, in most situations I like AWD cars better and, as a daily driver, its simply no contest. Unless you are tracking your vehicle, RWD has zero advantages over a well set AWD car, even in racing AWD is probably superior given the traction benefits. Plus, you can drift AWD cars just fine given enough power.
I know you guys outside the US have never used SHAWD (torque vectoring with acceleration gear) but it provides astonishing benefits in sharp curves. Its pretty amazing when you see an underpowered Acura smoking M3's and Porches in a tight turn. I wish Honda, who invented it, or other manufacturers would take such a brilliant system and adapt it to high power drivetrains. Other manufacturers make some variation of torque proportioning (Mercedes uses ABS to do it) but the fact is that no other system actually makes that wheel (rear outside) go faster rather than just proportioning available torque.

Glyn M Ruck

The S2000 is an amazing little car, rather bland styling excluded. It is wonderful to drive because it's performance is somehow more accessible & fun than certain other performance vehicles that can be somewhat sterile. ~ like Porsche.

That said ~ Porsche's Torque Vectoring Plus that apportions torque via an electronically controlled differential to the rear wheels is stunning.

coladin

If the C400 can do 4.6/13.3, I'm sure the C450 with more aggressive tuning and power will be in the 4.2-4.3 range and maybe 13 flat. With no traction issues at launch it will be a very quick car.

c4004matic

The Porsche system is still missing the key ingredient of SHAWD, the accelerating gear. As you are well aware torque does not equal rotational speed it simply means which tire is getting the power. Heck even my plain "cheap" MDX has a more advanced system than vectoring plus. In the past RL (AKA legend) the accelerating gear was variable thus varying the speed increase of the outer wheel depending on the steering angle! On the "lesser" SHAWD systems acceleration is fixed. The hybrid SHAWD system is supposed to be even better yet. One thing that a lot of people don't understand about SHAWD is that you have to change your normal driving process, since for it to its "magic" you have to accelerate through the entire curve. When you learn it, it can do amazing things. The issue with the original system was that it only worked while accelerating so if the car was otherwise not a sharp handler it was not that much fun otherwise. That problem was addressed on the new mechanical system by instituting a secondary negative torque system using ABS just as everyone else does. Much better yet, on the hybrid system by using regenerative braking on the inside wheel while using entirely electrical motor to accelerate the outside wheel, truly brilliant indeed! I can't wait to see the fully mature and much more powerful system in the upcoming NSX. If you haven't read the engineering specs and operation of the rear purely electric differential of the sport hybrid system I recommend you peruse it here:
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/ar...spx?id=7504-en
The car I was originally in the market for was a SHAWD hybrid (AKA sport hybrid). However Honda had teething issues with the system and delayed the car for almost a year, that's how I ended up at the Mercedes dealer.
Anyway compared to any of those systems 4matic seems crude though still effective.

Mark's M

And if you're correct, that would be brilliant!!

Glyn M Ruck

The fact remains the Porsche system works & makes it the best handling sports car out there in it's class. Even at a power deficit over it's competition, over a specific distance with plently of twisties (something like the Manx TT course) it blows it's competition to the weeds.

Irritatingly competent & the 911 still has it's engine in the wrong place! I don't love them but I have to admire what they do well.

Mark's M

Very well said. I hope the development team behind the C450 were/are on the same page. And bought a Porsche with TVP just for fun!

PeterUbers

The 450 will have a fixed 33/66 forced front/rear split I read... More like the amg's... The real amgs with 4 matic

Eilers

oh.. I whole heartedly disagree.

There are many advantages to RWD over AWD or 4WD, that relates to daily use and ownership. Vice versa there are also many advantages to AWD or 4WD over RWD.

To add confusion: FWD this too has it's advantages and disadvantages over RWD and AWD/4WD.

just to mention a few (all will not apply to any car of course)

RWD benefits over AWD/4WD: Better tuning circle, better fuel economy, better weight distribution, ligther, les complex and less expensive to maintain and service over time. Better steering feel. Often better brakes too(relates to weight distribution), and there is less transmission loss.

Some AWD/4WD systems are also just plain bad, and this design weakness does not really apply for RWD.

I own and drive FWD, 4WD, AWD and RWD, Front, mid and rear engine cars. To be honest I just traded the rear engined car, but have no overall preference to any system or layout.

Mark's M

I hope so, seems like it's a winner of a system (as in your AMG), described in a bunch of mag tests as providing the feel of RWD most of the time, the security of properly proportioned AWD for quick and efficient track outs and just plain old confidence to push the limits whenever you can. It'll be exciting if the C450 does in fact get the full-blown AMG-tuned 4Matic system. If this is the case, and as much as I'd love to own the C63, I'm thinking that the C450 will be my next car.

K-A

Is BMW releasing a version of this as well? Currently, "M Performance" at least in the States isn't an actually new badged and moniker of car (like it is with M-B calling it "C450 AMG Sport"), I believe it's just a 335i (or whatever else it comes on) with some "performance" and/or aesthetic parts. I know there's an M550D out there, but not in the States, and not sure if it's factored within "M Performance".

AMG guys ain't gonna be too happy with the impending AMG badges sprinkled all over that "bridge" C450.

coladin

AMG guys ain't gonna care because they now how the moniker works.


Car guys know that AMGs will be only two numeric, not three and that they will also be known as Mercedes-AMG C63, not Mercedes-Benz C450 AMG Sport.


Do the M owners care? A big who cares...

K-A

Some M owners indeed complain. And even when they say "they don't care", badge threads become flame tests. BMW already jumped on the badge whoring a long time ago as my 5 Series had like 11 M badges sprinkled throughout it, stock.

Mark's M

Your insight into what MPerformance cars are is wrong. BMW's MPerformance cars HAVE been released. The only one to make it to North America thus far is the M235. It's not an ///M car but it's tweaked by M Division. Which is what the C450 will be when it's similarly tweaked by AMG. Both are more than "performance and/or aesthetic parts" as you mistakenly imply. Have no clue what you are talking about with your 335i info. Do you mean "MSport"? If so, MSport and MPerformance are 2 different animals. Same as the pending difference will be between a MB equipped with an AMG "style" pack vs an AMG Performance-tuned vehicle.

As for the badging issue, interesting to see how MB handles it. BMW seems to have gone a touch overboard on the number of "M's" you can find on the MPerf cars but their performance credibility, particularly the M235's, seems to have quieted the naysayers down. Actually not a big deal anymore in the BMW M community. You alluding to the flame throwing in BMW forums is over.

K-A

Yes, BMW has been doing it for some time so it's not such a hot issue anymore, but when it comes up, it's usually still a little touchy, if not passive aggressive.

That's what I was asking. *IS* there an equivalent from BMW. The M235i answers that. "M Performance" was/is originally introduced (in the U.S, at least) as a line of modifications to some BMW's (http://www.shopbmwusa.com/BMW-PERFORMANCE), such as the 3 Series. I think you can even include some of those "M Performance" options via the configurator now.

Mark's M

True, you have a point re "M Performance" options such as exhausts and tunes that exist (along with fluff items like stripes and cf trim pieces). It's a little confusing that BMW named their new "middle of the road" division M Performance as well. But the difference comes down to the engineering and content. MPerformance cars have about 30% of their development and tuning attributed to M Division. Which is why these cars are much more than a hodge podge of M Performance parts being thrown onto a given model.

I'm sure MB has developed this new line similarly. And if the C450 gets reviews along the lines of what the M235 has, they'll have done a good job bridging the gap between a car that's simply badge engineered and one that possesses some of the performance attributes of the real thing (C63). As for the badging, lol I could care less if they left AMG completely off of this car. I'll be considering it for what is is, not what's on it which I think will fit the demographic of most prospective C450 buyers.

TopGun32

KLEEMANN has tune already for C400. 410hp and 440lbs/tq

OE has said they will have one soon.. and i'm sure other tuners are already testing products to boost power.

The C450 will be a great car. I hope it has better brakes, a bit better exhaust, obviously power output and better tuning on suspension for handling. 4Matic is just fine for 95% of drivers. RWD with LSD will be ideal but I doubt it will offered.

With turbo engines.. waiting for the extra power kits by manufacturer is really not necessary. But if you want to have peace of mind of stock car.. go for 450, just realize that a regular C400 will be able to keep up just fine.

Mercedes already has done various power levels for the 5.5TT and 4.7TT. Its the same engine but tuned differently. Both reach maximum output with tune. Then exhaust mods are needed to reach a higher level of output.

The 3L M276 will be the same. Eventually the turbos will be maxed out and others mods will be needed to extract more power.

coladin

with 4Matic and no wheelspin, that tune could make the C400 a 12.5-12.7 car. Easy 1500USD!

jbbeauso

That's nuts! Tempted to tune....

MetaL63

I just purchased a c400 4matic for $51k in the US with Nav, lighting package, backup camera, blind spot, sunroof, 19" wheels, foot actuated trunk open/close and rear window shades.

The only complaint so far with the car is the corner handling area where the rear of the car feels very unsure of itself. There is too much body roll and the car sways side to side through the turn and worsens with the slightest more/less steering input you give it during a turn. I'm going to try and contact some euro car suspension gurus to see about specing a larger rear bar and progressive rear springs. I think once you settle down the rear of the car it will make it a completely different animal.

I had this same issue with a 335 vert I owned a few years ago and changing the characteristics of the rear suspension netted huge results.

RealCasually

Almost eerily similar to me. I bought the same car with the same options, and paid the same price. I also have my older 335i convertible for sale now

Let us know what you find in terms of suspension, I would be very interested.

K-A

Sounds like normal ultra floaty if not wallowy Mercedes handling. The W205 to me feels like even a step back in driving dynamics. Purely comfort focused.

floridadriver

Which that focus is the only reason I'm interested in one. Gotta be a better car fit for you than a Mercedes. Especially this one.

StanNH

That's the complete opposite of my experience driving through nothing but twisty mountain roads on a daily basis. The car feels quite agile and completely stable through hard cornering. "Ultra floaty" and "wallowy" are simply not terms anyone who owns one would use to describe the handling.

Alignment issues, tires, and tire pressures all can impact the handling, but the W205 is a stable platform.

Glyn M Ruck

KA had an old E Class. That chassis was soggy. All Benzes are certainly not like that. Sportstick's wife also has an E Class with the same complaint. It is peculiar to that model in non AMG form & American set up.