K-A

Yes, the E Class feels like there's a "feature" called "boat-on-water FloatMATIC" when you take even low speed simple right turns.

The W205 I don't consider non-capable, but I feel is very un-sporty feeling almost as if a step back in that regard as you can tell Mercedes shifted their focus from "trying" to generate a sportier feel. I think this is actually a good thing, as it yielded awkward results on some previous models, which is why I think they went full force with luxury and comfort this time.

Many magazine articles seem to state the same thing, so I know I'm not the only one, re: W205. But when I drove it I found it quite floaty and clinical in that effect. The car doesn't feel like it can't handle turns, it feels stable, but it just feels sometimes a bit loose and soft and sometimes floaty while doing it. And I really think that was exactly what M-B is going for on the W205. Capable, but not sporty. Kind of the M-B classic ideals actually.

Keep in mind, above was referencing some "wallow" (what I feel he was describing) in a C400 with "Sport" suspension. However, I drove a C300 on the base suspension.

coladin

You don't know what you are talking about. You admitted to driving a C300 base suspension. I have a C400 Airmatic with the 19s and it is not a step back whatsoever. It is different, but certainly not a step back. It is better in many ways, in fact, I think it is better in every way from the W204, with more flexibility depending on what mood you are in. Sport+ or Comfort, you can make the car stiff or floaty. I had two C63s before and in Sport+ it is just a little less stiff but close to what my AMGs were.


You are very negative and full of backhanded compliments about this car, I am on to you... and you can say what you want on a car forum, but talking out of your **** on a vehicle you have not driven and making assumptions makes you look pretty ignorant.

K-A

Firstly, plenty of people, such as the one I responded to, claimed loose, or "swaying", or however you want to put it, handling.

Second, I can post a host of articles who state that the W205 seems like a relinquishing of "sporty characteristics" chasing. So I'm not the only one.

Backhanded compliments? I don't find the W205 impressive overall. However, there are aspects of it that I am impressed by. I'm not really hiding anything.

Yes, I drove a C300, that's why I noted that and said that what he described from his C400 reminded me of what I thought about the C300 in its base suspension.

A newer car has to be more capable than a previous car. Not that the W204 was very sporty or anything. The W205 surely will naturally outperform it. I just think that M-B made a car that doesn't feel in the least sporty, and many seem to state the exact same thing. It's not meant to be offensive. I personally think that if anyone gets offended that the W205 is not engaging in the sportiness rat race and instead going for class leading comfort, they got the wrong car.

Glyn M Ruck

Benz has gone back to it's roots & DNA & is focusing on Luxury ~ something it does very well & why I buy them. It's no longer trying to out-do a BMW 3 Series ~ a car that until recently when softened could be bone shakingly uncomfortable & crude in it's quest for handling ~ made even worse by run-flat tyres. The 3 Series BMW did outhandle the C Class other than it's propensity to snap oversteer. A good old BMW trait on the majority of models other than the 7 Series which was more Benz like. You sacrificed a lot of refinement for that slight edge in handling.

Benz now gives three steel suspension variants & Airmatic. Some steel sport standard or lowered in some markets. There is more than enough choice to satisfy most normal people that are not boy racers. In SA form at least the lowered Sport suspension is too damn firm for most.

These cars don't wallow. The closest thing to wallowing comes from Airmatic in it's softest setting. If a W205 truly wallows it needs it's tyre pressures increased.

K-A

Maybe "wallow" is the wrong word. Basically softly floats around and doesn't give the biggest sense of body control. I.e not "sharp" at all really, in my experience. And to attain levels of luxury without the compromise of harshness like the clumsy W212's I had conveyed, I think that's exactly what M-B intended to purposefully do. Unlike the W212 or W204, they aren't trying to sell you sportiness when you look at or drive the car, they're trying to sell you luxury, shamelessly. I await trying a sport suspension W205, but every time I drive an M-B with a sport suspension, it doesn't seem to improve handling or actual sportiness, instead goes the gimmicky route to achieve it by simply making the car stiffer and harsher. True sportiness can be attained with smoothness as well, and this is why I think it's genuinely a good thing if M-B decides to sacrifice their implementation of "sport" (which I find to be harshness in many of their cases) on pure comfort. I generally don't find M-B chassis' to be well matched to sporty dynamics, unless AMG gets a hold of them, which is why I feel it becomes awkward and a bit clumsy when they try it.

Stating that M-B gave up on the sporty race and embraced luxury isn't a backhanded comment. I think taking it as a backhanded comment is missing out on the point of the W205 chassis entirely.

Glyn M Ruck

I consider one of the most balanced AMG implimentations to be the CLK Black Series as long as you don't defeat the nannies.

Other AMG implementations are bonkers but fun. In the hands of the wrong & less intelligent driver you can completely overpower the chassis whereas using the power at the right times can be a fun drive. Excess power is always fun. It just needs to be used judiciously.

In the words of now Red Bull Racing designer, Adrian Newey, AMG cars are fun because their performance is accessible to most.

Porsche on the other hand generally have a power deficit to their competition that is more than made up for by superb handling. They don't have to worry about suspension or powertrain incursion into passenger or luggage space. At the same time this makes them somewhat sterile & it is beyond the capabilities of the average driver to push them to their limits.

I have recently been thrashing a Cayman R owned by a friend. It's monstrously uncomfortable, very competent, not anywhere near as much fun to drive as I would have expected. The PDK is brilliant as is the launch control.

I see you are driving a Macan S. I was invited to the launch here last year. It's a nice vehicle. My only disappointment is that they watered back the styling so much from the stunning concept.

ddeliber

How would you know? Also, how would you define "wallow"? It sounds like you claim it is the wrong word but simply replaced it with its definition.

Again, we are talking about a configuration that exists and you have not driven so how would you know?

Same exact position, different thread.

If someone would complain about softness and lack of feel in a no line 328xi or a 528xi you would immediately argue that they drove the wrong car, they need to drive a RWD M-sport. And you would not do it in a nice way. It is sort of funny that you act surprised or indignant when people do the same to you. Yet you persist making the same statements when people have already pointed out the flaws in your description, repeatedly.

You started with a few new Mercs (after your family owned several BMWs), then you switched to a BMW because the the ride wasn't firm enough. Then you switched again to Porsche because the BMW wasn't firm enough for you. It is pretty apparent that your tastes require a harsh ride where you feel every bump and undulation and call that dynamism or whatever. You are not going to find that here. Hell, AMG isn't even going to give you that. What is the point of continuing along this line?

Yes I agree that "True sportiness can be attained with smoothness as well". I also believe that the w205 is significantly smoother than say a BMW 3series with perhaps a small compromise in handling at the limit (when configured with this as a priority). A tradeoff that I would gladly take every day of the week. There is no point in considering your opinion on the w205 in this comparison because really, how would you know?

Glyn M Ruck

Read the iPhone vs. Android thread in the OT ~ All will become plain. KA is not the sort of person you would invite to a focus group.

StanNH

I'll be the first to admit that my C300 doesn't handle anything like my Porsche Boxster S. Regardless of what the road is like, or how sharp the turns are, the Porsche just goes where it's pointed. The steering is spot on, body motions are amazingly well controlled, and it's almost impossible to reach this car's limits on any public roads. Is my C300 like this? No, of course not.

The W205 is not a sports car, nor was it ever intended to drive like one. It competes in the compact sedan segment against brands like Audi, BMW, Volvo, Lexus, et al. I have extensive experience drving BMW's, Audi's, and Volvos, and I really don't see where the W205 lacks in any particular area of handling.

The best handling sedan I've ever owned, or driven, was my BMW 528i, but that had the now obsolete hydraulic assist power steering. The newer BMW's I've driven were hampered by newer and relatively numb feeling electric assist. My Audi's were fine, but lacked in their steering feel as well. My last Volvo S60 R-Design was very good, and had a three step adjustable steering system, but rode harshly and drove heavy.

My C300 has 18" tires with the base steel suspension. The steering, which I still think is weighted too light, has some feel to it. It is very direct, tracks well on center, and is spot on during hard cornering. The turning radius is quite good for an AWD. Handing is competent, but certainly not as sharp as the Porsche. There is some body motion in there, but nothing to the point of being intrusive. Pushed hard, it does understeer a bit, which is certainly par for the course. I have not been able to induce oversteer at its limits, but some have reported that it will transition from mild understeer to oversteer at that point. I have read the complaint about losing the rear end during abrupt lane changes that was posted on this forum, but have never been able to duplicate that, and I have tried.

The car is hampered to some degree by the standard RFT rubber it comes with. That's understandable from a production and cost point of view, but it may be a disadvantage when it comes to handling ... and definitely is when it comes to ride comfort. But, even with RFT's, I have never felt any odd body motions or "wallowing". In fact, I would not even describe this as a particularly soft suspension setup. If anything, it is more on the firm side, even in base trim.

So no, the W205 doesn't offer Porsche-like handling. It does however, offer competitive sedan handling, and is easily controlled even in severe handling scenarios. There are certainly better handling sedans out there, but that in no way diminishes the handling ability of the W205 series ... which is actually rather good.

coladin

This is a forum called mbworld. You are more than welcome to spew your erroneous opinions on Car and Driver or car forums, but in case you haven't noticed, this is a forum made up of owners of these cars. Owners who are really happy with their purchases.


You don't have a horse in this race, and yet you form comments not on real world owners but on some articles that you cannot read properly. You drove a base C300. How does a base Tiguan, or Macan, drive compared to the sportier version? So you after going to base your opinions on the gussied up VW, or Porsche, and paint the whole range with it? It's like you giving an opinion on the Macan Turbo, you still would have no clue from your base Porsche. The suspension settings in sport in the C300 and C400 are properly sporty vehicles.


No, you come here and tell us owners that we bought the wrong car? Are you serious? You do not comprehend what the automotive journalists are saying about this car. This is not an autocross vehicle. That is what they are saying. Go get an AMG. An M. An RS. A V. This is not a Buick in any way , shape of form, and with all due respect to Buicks which are good cars.


"Not in the least sporty"? Based on what? I am coming from two AMGs, when was the last time you had a sporty car to compare it with? I hopped out of my 507 and right into this one, I am more qualified than you will ever be to make a legitimate assessment on the sportiness of this car. It is offensive because you are ignorant about it since you have nothing to base your opinion on. You haven't driven it to know. Period.


But if you insist on basing your opinion on journalists you should read Top Gear. They gave the car 9/10 overall, the AMG line, the same group that gave your Porsche a 6/10.

Glyn M Ruck

Well said as usual.

Your Boxster S is a far more sensible all rounder than the Cayman R ~ if it wasn't so low it could make for a relatively good daily driver ~ but we accept that these vehicles are usually a 3rd or 4th car for weekend fun. That's what my friend Andre had prior to the Cayman R.

Interestly even Andre gave up on the Cayman R's carbon fibre seats & pads. You battle to get in & out of the vehicle & they are hardly an aid to comfort. You can't make a hard seat like that "one size fits all"

He got Porsche Centre to remove them & fit Cayman/Boxster leather seats. Much better unless on a race track.

K-A

Based on what I've read about the C400, I can almost guarantee I know how it will drive. M-B's rarely if ever surprise me dynamically. What I say I base on the C300, which I've stated clearly. Many have repeated exactly what I have after I drove the C300, after I did, so I just think it's different perspectives at play here.

I've driven pretty much every car in existence last year. I drove every Porsche you can around a race track, ***** out. The W205 is a chassis I couldn't imagine holding its own on a track without AMG treatment. If the C400 proves me wrong, I'll be happily surprised, but I've read enough reviews and been able to read between the lines. I drove a 328i without M Sport back to back with the C300 and even in its newfound softness, the F30 is way more engaging and dynamic I feel, and also way behind in luxury.

Actually, I'm the first to say that harshness IS NOT dynamic. That's what I'm railing against. M-B appear to think that harshness is "sportiness".

This Porsche has an air suspension + PASM which is not only more refined and smooth over harsh surfaces than any of my Merc's, save for the ABC S Class, or BMW, but also more planted, tight, communicative and exhilarating to run through turns than any non AMG Merc or modern BMW I've driven (which I'm sure could change if I drove something like the M235i which I've yet to, but still, that's a singularly fun performance car, so the luxury combo is out of the equation).

What peaks my interest here is how defensive some get when a car that at its core isn't the least bit "sporty", is quite dense in that regard (imo), gets called "not sporty". It's pretty clear that M-B don't want to engage in that battle anymore. Just look at it, and that rear, it's very mature, almost old fashioned, as is the interior (old world luxury yet modern), the whole car is communicating a language to you, and that's unapologetically luxury. Yes, the Sport Package switches things up a bit, but M-B Sport Packages never truly change the dynamic nature of the chassis', they help, usually introduce harshness (which is why I think they don't know how to do it quite right) which in the E Class cases not to mention some others, can feel sloppy, but from what I've gathered, is not really different in the W205. The C400 is more front heavy than the C300 as well and I've seen more than one person comment on that after driving both.

Like I keep saying. CAPABLE, but not sporty. That's the C300. And that's not backhanded or even a diss.

Actually I was in a focus group. Guess who the most popular guy and go to opinion in that room was.

StanNH

Now we're getting into a semantics debate. "Sporty" can mean different things to different people, and is almost totally dependent on their previous experience with the cars they've driven. None here would consider a stock W205 to be a track car, yet most would think of it as "sporty", especially with the addition of the Sport Package. While I agree that the W205 Sport Package does little to alter the inherent handing characteristics of the car, many drivers do equate increased ride stiffness with better handling. It's the perception of "sportiness" that counts when marketing these type of options.

Personally, I wasn't looking for a track capable car when I drove my C300 off the lot. I wanted a capable handling car that was comfortable to drive over varied road surfaces, one that was quick yet economical, equipped with a good AWD system, and one that I could enjoy driving through the seldom level and never straight roads that make up the majority of my daily driving routine. The car has acquitted itself well, and I actually am enjoying driving it.

One of the most inclusive reviews I have yet to read about the C300 summed it up best. It said that the W205 was not the best in any one area ... it's excellence was that it had no weaknesses in any area. The same can be said regarding this discussion about handling ... it may not be class leading, but it does handle very well. Whether or not one defines its handling as "sporty" or not is almost irrelevant. A rational compromise of good handling and reasonable comfort is not, IMHO, a shortcoming at all.

Glyn M Ruck

Yes ~ extreme outlier, erratic, indecisive, factious, derisive, fad of the month, fashion before function, short term fan boy, etc. etc.

You would make up about 0.0000000001% of the market from your chosen internet persona. Hardly what I would base a successful service or product on.

K-A

Honestly, please. What you guys are getting defensive over is child's play. Other forums deal with paramount vitriol. I've read countless opinions of the W205 being sans sportiness at its core, mine was one of the firsts. If one is aggressively sensitive to that then I call it denial. If one is respectfully disagreeing than I call it a difference of opinion.

I've never personally attacked, insulted or been so childish as to bring up someone else's unrelated car in a discussion. Just a matter of time before finances come up I'm sure, in keeping with tradition here. That appears to be an MB fanboy thing based on my experiences on various forums. Bimmer forums get way more heated with actual insults and trolls and even they handle it with more dignity.

I always keep it focused on the cars in question. Once you give that up, you've entered desperation mode and lost the "argument" at hand. No matter how vast the difference of opinion.

Otherwise, I know how a C300 drives, I eagerly await the C400 to see what some of you are on about. I can hardly contain myself.

K-A

No disagreement. Like I said, I didn't feel that the car couldn't handle a turn. It just felt quite soft, clinical, sedated, pretty floaty and lacking in a communicative or soulful character to me. I was surprised in how MB pushed away from attempting to communicate sportiness. Though I never doubted it being *purposeful*. I read reviews afterward that said exactly what I said. Hardly anything to get bent about to anyone confident in why they got the car, I'd think. I've not tested it at its absolute limits so this sportiness talk is largely personal and taste along with the technical and fundamental, and in the real world sportiness is often judged by that metric. Sensation is a key factor, i.e a car that brings a grinning appreciation in its balance while rounding through a turn, or one that can round the same turn, but feels like a basic chore in dong so.

StanNH

I'm not upset. If I don't like a car, I sell it and get another one. It's not a marriage. (Maybe that wasn't a good analogy.)

K-A

Oh I know this. Which is why I can have a conversation with you where we aren't trying to pee on each other.

ddeliber

So you are saying that your opinion is based on what you read in a couple articles and you don't need to drive it... Interesting. I am pretty sure that you yourself had some strong opinions about others who who open a post with "Based on what I've read about the".

Regarding "What I say I base on the C300, which I've stated clearly.": You are saying a lot about the w205 in general, not just the base C300 that you drove once. It is sort of funny that you begin a paragraph with ... about the c400, I can almost guarantee..." and then basically say but I am only talking about the C300.

I honestly don't know what you are saying in your last sentence there. Not something I expected from you of all people. However, I can say that I am pretty sure that you are the only person here that claims that the w205 is "not the least bit sporty".

I don't have much to say about your statement that you couldn't imagine a w205 handling as well as a Porsche on a racetrack. I can't speak intelligently about your imagination and the statement doesn't really say anything about the cars.

Your statement about the 328i doesn't add any value as well. A 328xi has a totally different suspension and I am pretty sure it is softer than a base C300.

Regarding harshness: Based on your repeated statements that the W205 is a step back from the w204 it is pretty apparent that you are the one that
-seems to really need harshness to feel sporty.
-obviously has absolutely no idea about the differences provided by the multiple suspension options available

Lets keep this in perspective, you are comparing what amounts to a $75,000 Porsche to a $45,000 C class (a guess sure, but I'll give you up to say $50k). Add $25k to a C-class and you get a C63. But still, I had a lot of fun in the $52k C400s that I drove and I had a squirming salesman sitting next to me.

Wow, you state that a car (I assume you mean the base c300 that you drove) is "not the least bit sporty" and "dense in that regard" in one long run-on and difficult to read sentence and wonder why people get defensive. Sure we all know that is not in the least bit true. Just like your Camry comparison in the Car & Driver thread, but come on even you have to admit that it is inflammatory, a diss and intended to provoke a defensive response. Sort of like me questioning the intelligence of anyone that would spend $1200 on a clock in a gussied up VW Tiguan, not to mention the manufacturer that thinks that highly of its customers to charge it. I can go on and on if you like, but the point I want to make here is: Most people don't value the opinion of someone who bashes a car across the board because they drove the base model once. I can say with out a shadow of doubt that you really just don't know. I am pretty sure that everyone here sees this. Persistence in this argument under these conditions says more about the reviewer than anything that he ever wrote about the car.

And then they had to throw out the results because one person was dominating the discussion. The real point of the analysis was to get multiple opinions and that one person wouldn't let that happen so the results were deemed tainted.

Mark's M

Well on a happy note.....10 days until the C450

And having driven the C400 with 19's and in Sport+ for an extended period, it's clearly a car that meets my personal performance standards - which are very high but realistic in terms of what it's meant to be. If I got out of it thinking "geez, this is just like my current C350 with a nicer interior" I would have said "thanks but no". Reality is, as I posted awhile back, it was a night and day experience and FWIW I was extremely impressed.

coladin

It truly is night and day, well said. I don't know what that other guy is smoking or trying to pontificate about to us lost children of the W205, just shows a guy buys a Porsche and thinks he can be condescending and an expert. I know there are guys here with Porsches who are cool, he ain't one of them. The height of ignorance, really.

StanNH

With my prostate, that can be difficult at times.

Count Laszlo

I think the Macan is a wannabe Porsche... the S even more so. It's like the old 924 or 914 stigma. My wife thinks they're absolute vanilla. Porsche will sell a gaziilion of them. That's great. But K-A, be respectful, you're an ex-Merc owner hanging around spewing nonsense to folks who own these cars and enjoy them. Go fan boy over in the Porsche forum if you cannot hand over some respect to Merc owners!

ddeliber

Interesting that you choose to deflect in this way. I disagree with you and think you are presenting an uninformed opinion and I felt compelled to say it. The quoted snip just points out that BMW has similar configuration differences that change the handling characteristics of their cars the same way the w205 does. Where is the lack of dignity in that? We have had similar debates a few times now. Or is it that you took issue with the rest of the post and just didn't want to quote it? I am honestly not trying to offend anyone, but I just felt the "not the least bit sporty" remark was a dig and needed a response.

The really odd thing is that you know I drive a BMW so why the MB fanboy comment?

Glyn M Ruck

KA can be a nice guy when he is defending matters of principle on the OT. However he is a stirrer & he knows he is a stirrer. He tries to provoke people. He's been around here for a long time. His car choices are erratic which is his prerogative. 3 of the most stodgy Benzes selected by him. One model so unpopular that Benz had to do such a major facelift on that most companies would have called it a new model, followed by a 5 series BMW & now a Macan. All of a sudden sporty has become an issue & Benz is no good ~ strange!

The staff of MBWorld would prefer KA to keep his stirring to the OT where we moderate to more relaxed standards & keep it out of the technical forums.