K-A

Wow, you guys get way too much a kick out of this, lol.

I think the W205 chassis isn't sporty, and I think that the loaded C300 I drove felt near sloppy when pushed even remotely. Go ahead and hate "me" for it. It just means I'm probably right. This isn't stirring, trolling, nor is it inaccurate from my perspective.

If I get time, I could link many statements from others saying the exact same thing. The fact that people get so nasty over it means there's a complex. I was responding to a post stating what I do!

Anyone can say what they want about my Merc's, BMW, or Porsche. I take no offense. I know what they are. I love talking cars even if it's bashing, praising, etc. my own. But at least know what you're talking about, as the Macan has about as much relation to a Tiguan as a C Class to a Smart Car. Totally different chassis and nothing shared. Otherwise, forum disagreements won't hamper the fact that I think that optioned out how this specific one is; it's the most "dream answering" brilliant, impressive and versatile overall car I've driven by and large, period. You guys love your C's, I suggest if you really disagree with me then do the same. Enjoy its brilliance and don't let an opinion of someone question it. If I'm wrong, then state your correction and explanation and watch the discussion remain respectful. Like StanNH did.

I commented on someone WITH a C400 stating how much his car swayed and felt uncontrolled through turns. Then others couldn't handle that it's what I said I experienced. Not my issue, and sorry but I'm not in the wrong on that.

But I digress. I'll drive a C400 and unless I have nothing but praise about it, I'll either keep it to myself to not set off delicate sensibilities or put it in O/T where I guess it's fair game.

Glyn: I am a nice guy. The "hate" rolls off my back and I don't have the time to hate a forum member enough to be venomous back. But agreeing with what someone said which directly mimics what I said can't be inappropriate even if it is stirring. I can't help if others drag it so much. I've been on many boards and been considered of the highest influence where countless people change or make orders based on my recommendations or where my review threads get the most population. Even here when I had my MB's. And yes, real life focus groups have considered my opinion most noteworthy in a room full of people. One asked if they could use something I said in marketing once, halfway serious. I know cars. And if I criticize an MB I'm not trying to stir, regardless of how I may do it. I don't know why people here hold my opinion high enough to derail threads if they don't agree with me.

floridadriver

I'm in my 30s, and I'd say 'lack of sporty' isn't a negative connotation. I'd be on a different side of the room with a focus group. Sure, when I was a teen to say my car wasn't sporty was akin to calling my mom names. This car hits the nail on the head of a different goal.

IMO would say it's for

-people who want a luxury branded car, styling and features without the large size (my back seat has been used 2X in 7 years)

-road drivers that will never care to see a track in a W205, but will see roads in need of repair every drive.

-that give up roughness and 'cornering' to lean cushy (but not 1979 Lincoln Town Car so) with a great variety of suspension options to tailer...never truly a track car, granted.

-drivers who may want more a version with more HP and occasional zip, if doesn't cut on driving dynamics of their daily driving.

There's just so many cars in every price range, that emulate "sporty" that I'm glad this one doesn't try to fake it anymore. Spend enough and you can get a real sports car...'16 NSX at auto show in a couple weeks would be interesting if you didn't want a Lambo.

And if not that deep in the pockets, many cars going that direction, ATS, obviously the BMW 2 and 3, Chevy Camaro, many more...but if you want a well engineered smaller package daily driver that oozes class, palpable upgrades, smooths bumps in life without boring MOST road drivers to tears...you pretty much only have the W205 at this point.

EDIT: And of course I didn't mean to leave out the MB SL65 AMG, that would be in sporty class and an exhilarating track drive too

Glyn M Ruck

KA ~ You are irritating the membership of the W205 forum. If you can't see that you are blind. Now stop it or I might have to get irritated about it.

K-A

E.X.A.C.T.L.Y!!!!

Saying that the car is NOT a negative connotation, and that's why I say that those who get offended by that, I believe are getting the wrong car and don't quite understand what M-B is trying to achieve with this car.

Everyone tries to be sporty today (though rarely do any really do it; i.e it seems to be a marketing schtick mostly as the cars don't carry the dynamics in which they're advertised or spoken for via design), it was C&D or whichever article that mimic'd something I said in that the W205 pulls out of "trying to be sporty". It's said in this very thread by some other than me as well. It wants to retain or regain the luxury crown, and it did that. That's not a bad thing, nor is it a backhanded compliment. The F30 3 handles better, the W205 crushes it in refinement and luxury. What's wrong with that? Seems both are in their fair places.

I personally don't feel that M-B conquers sporty very well, outside of AMG, but they wrote the book on luxury. And I think it's a good thing that the W205 embraces that again. Again, not a backhanded compliment.

If someone finds the W205 to be sporty as well, then great; you have both worlds.

K-A

That's fine. I throw up a truce flag. But I can't help it if certain other members choose to drag it out for their own entertainment.

Glyn M Ruck

Good ~ it's been a while since you were last suspended.

ddeliber

I guess it depends on your definition of sporty.

Personally I consider a Camry or an Avalon as not the least bit sporty. Prius's and Honda Fits go there as well, along with limousines and Escalades. Accords can be sporty and even Kia Optimas have sporty characteristics.

A w205 is not a Mustang or a Challanger. Nor is it a true sports car like a Corvette or most Porsches and I don't believe that Porsche makes a vehicle that isn't on the sportiest end of its class. And no, it is not a BMW nor does it try to be any of them.

The choice of words is what can lead to disagreements.

IMO the w205 is class leading in smoothness interior styling and luxury while also being fun to drive and yes sporty. Is it sportier than say a similarly configured 3-series? Probably not, but that doesn't mean an absence of sportiness. Luxury and sporty are not mutually exclusive. The trade off favors smoothness over the last bit of handling at the edge to prevent harshness in every day driving. This is my preference now that I have felt it. I am just not sure if it is worth trading in a perfectly good and extremely fun to drive BMW (to me anyway).

edit: Added in the second relevant quote.

K-A

Agree with this concept. I guess I should be more clear in what I compare it to and what defines sportiness to me when I state my review on that metric of it.

Edit: My bad. Noticed that referenced another post. Much the same as I agree with his views on the subject.

ddeliber

Just to be clear, I am not offended or even irritated by any of the comments made in this thread. To me it is a debate about cars and I try to measure the tenor of my posts in kind with what I am responding to. It is not my intention to offend or "hate" anyone. I even like K-A, well as much as this is possible on a message board. He is a great writer and is usually fun to debate with. I even agreed with him a few times over the past couple years both here and on bimmerfest.

PeteInGilroy

To me, the Avalon (2013) was very sporty. In fact so sporty, I sold it after 11 months. It was the roughest riding car I have ever driven. It cornered great, but you felt every road imperfection and the noise from those imperfections intruded profusely.

I switched to a Lexus, and now on to a C300 (soon). I'm still seeking that luxury ride. Love your description of smoothness and harshness prevention relating to the C Class.

I've been driving Japanese cars for over 30 years, and I am so done with them. If I have to, I will upgrade to an E Class to achieve that perfect ride, but I'm wanting a smaller size vehicle.

K-A

Feeling is mutual ddeliber. I always appreciate and can learn from a good and articulated automotive debate.

floridadriver

That's true that the term gets stretched, as lack of sporty somehow can be seen as a dig. Some posts here as example. I digress, but my neighbor has a garden hose with stripes on it and says he bought 2 cuz it's the sportiest hose he has ever seen. Interestingly, it hangs in garage next to his Avalon with custom rims. (I find interesting as its a car you mentioned) That said, he's not of the age of midlife crisis yet, but is morbidly overweight and always wears a full Adidas track suit. Never exercises or plays a sport, nor could really. But, to each their own. If he thinks he's a sporty guy, and that's somehow a 'good thing', rock on dude!

I go by the dictionary: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sports%20car

In that, cars may try to imitate these characteristics, but W205 compared even to the other (non sports car) vehicles in its class, to me, foregoes sport to nail the other strong points you mention. Which as a 'true' MB sedan IMO and a great option to have in a smaller package now.

Germancar1

OMG this debate is hilarious. The C450 is coming for those who want more sport. 362hp, 9G transmission and true AMG suspension tuning. It should be a real treat.

M

Glyn M Ruck

Understood ~ KA & I have had pleasant debates in the past. But I'm a thick skinned South African with a very long fuse.

StanNH

Sly & The Family Stone summed this up many years ago:

"And different strokes for different folks
And so on and so on and Scooby dooby doo-bee
Oh, sha sha, we got to live together."

ddeliber

Wow, this is the first I have heard of a rough riding Avalon. I never drove one but just went by what others have said - softer than its brother the floaty Camry and its fraternal twin the ES (both of which I have driven). I truly hope that you won't be disappointed by the new C because it is definitely firmer than a Camry and an ES. Having said this, it is also significantly more refined and smooth both in its power delivery (an MB trait that I absolutely love) and int its ride.

To be honest, I would think an E-class would be more to your tastes (based solely on ride) considering your opinion of the Avalon. I have one and I believe it is the smoothest thing out there short of an S. Sure its bigger and edgy in its styling, but I like it. However, the interior of the C absolutely blows it and pretty much everything else away.

ddeliber

If you think this is funny just imagine if you chose some different words (replacing the C400 vs is coming). Then we could have started the other rant all over again. All in one thread!

floridadriver

Lexus ES has been based on Avalon (not Camry) chassis for a few years. Though IMO can't hold a candle to the interior, handling, German feel, based on ride alone the new C in softest suspension or air is every bit as soft riding as the newer Lexus ES's.

And...don't take that as a negative thing. Pretty cool MB can get the smoothness and control without handling loose and wallowy like the Toyota products mentioned IMO.

ddeliber

I know, that is what I meant by fraternal twin. I'll take your word about the softness comparison as I was focusing more on the other end of the firmness spectrum.

K-A

Unless one needs the extra room (I found the interior layout terrible on the C for my height), to me the W205 makes the W212 a tough sell. IMO better looking, nicer interior, and seemingly a bit tighter handling without quite the exaggerated float you get from the E. Though the E's are still built in Germany and for me personally that counts for a lot.

To counter the "tough sell" aspect mentioned above; W212's may see even increased discounting especially as the C itself has been already getting aggrssive discounts. Not gonna be easy to get people to pay much more for current E's I think. Question is, which is the better value? Getting an E Class so close to C pricing, or getting a new and more advanced C for under the most discounted volume MB sedan perhaps in history? I Recommend C between the two.

Glyn M Ruck

I think the next E is going to be a big step up or heads will role. Management are known to be fed up about it.

schvamf

So what are the chances that the C450 will be the new C coupe? Looking at the picture from this article it looks like a 2 door....

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/me...sport-detroit/

Glyn M Ruck

I think the C450 will ultimately be both Coupe & 4 door sedan. There is even some talk of the CLK moniker returning.

coladin

I have a 2014 E350 4Matic Wagon with the Sport Package. Car doesn't float. Lucky for you that I won two of the cars you talk about, but know nothing about.

Keep it up!


I have had 3 Benzes from Germany, 3 from the States. I don't realy find any difference in build quality. They both have niggling issues regardless of where they come from. One tends to overlook any minor annoyances if you like the car.

coladin

This is well put. The W205 is just so good at everything. It is very well engineered that it can be comfortable and it can be sporty. True, maybe the previous setup (not car) may have eeked out 1 second a lap on a racetrack, but the tradeoffs on the street...are they worth it?


BMWs are great at what they do, but it has been well established in many articles that they have lost their way a bit, perhaps in trying to be everything to everyone. Maybe if they go back to what BMWs were, it might help their brand. Probably not, with a FWD BMW here.


The argument is no different than BMW fans loving their racetrack engineered M3s with their high revving V8s, compared to a slower lapping C63 that dominated in day to day driving enjoyment. Mercedes have identified how they want their cars to drive and are sticking to it. I am happy with this car and if I want something sportier, I would go to another C63. Even if it is slower on a racetrack than an M3!


...which I doubt this time around!