Mike5215

There's a link to a write up on two upgrades in my sig.

damianw

Thank you.
I wanted to install speakers at the same level as you did but I didn't have a rack to mount it. I went this way (two mdf 6 mm cuted by laser machine - I have it in office) so this is like a sandwich.
I used Prima CD with levels adaptation but I wanted to see how output form HU is distorted. Everything is done now - only final tune but I will drive like this for a while and step by step I will tune a little bit to have my final settings.
About the woofer - sucks but sh** happen. I do not know what was the reason as passenger woofer is still ok. I replaced woofer for a new one and everything is ok now. Old woofer is broken - I can hear noises while moving gently membrane - probably coil overheated.

Hereafter pictures I took today :
1. Fuse installation close to battery:




2. Some kind of bracket/support for sub enclosure (to hold a sub not sliding in trunk)








3. DRC installed:



Sub is in dedicated sealed enclosure around 22l. Box was cheap so I bought it for a tests. It is dynamic for sure but saloon cars are not good for sub installation. Probably next modification will be second sub and both of them in custom ported enclosure (I will connect them in parallel to get 2 Ohms then the amp will produce around 540W - enough for two Hertz ES250.5).
Maybe to many pictures but as by my experience there is not many detailed pictures on internet and maybe this will be useful for someone which is planning to make some upgrades.

Mike5215

I wish I could hear it

If you want to do a write up with pics and stuff I'll add it to my blog like I did with Vladarth's. PM me and I'll give you my email.

damianw

It sound ok for now but will sound better when I will finalize my tune. Still fighting with cross overs for mids and woofers. Music scene is more in middle of car - at least I hear it this way as I am quite tall guy and my seat is almost all the way rear. This has to be also modify with my tune.

Thanks Mike. I will collect all my pictures, do a write up and then we can publish on your blog. Actually I can also add some pictures with additional equipment which can be useful for an installation. Some cad drawings with mdf cut outs for support and others which I did for my installation.

Mike5215

It's a tough car to tune. Even with all the new hardware you're fighting the lack of proper door woofers and the excessive brightness of the 4" mids.

My system ended up more biased to the rear than I'd like but I think after months of little tuning tweaks I've got it to 99% of what I wanted.

fresh27

Hey, just trying to catch up on this thread. I've just bought a coupe with the Audio 20. Obviously wanting to upgrade. Couple of questions.

Does anyone know if you can buy the silver panel from the Burmester models so I can fit a separate tweeter in the door.

Also, can you put a sub in the trunk under the floor, there is a big space.

thanks

Mike5215

In the front doors obviously put the tweets in the mirror sail panels. There's already a little pocket in there for them. On the rear doors I'd just find a shallow coaxial and use the existing speaker location.

(I don't believe MB sells the individual door trim bits. Typically you'd have to get a VIN from a Burmester car and order the whole panel. Not worth it. There are very convincing replica Burmester metal grilles on EBay if you want that look.)

On the sub, you may have someone fabricate a custom box of some sort, but I'd just resign myself to having a visible box in the trunk. Mine is very shallow and fits snugly right up against the rear seat backs. A JL with two 8".

damianw

As Mike said. Front tweeters in dedicated place. Already prepared to install most of the tweeters. Mike but in coupe there is no rear doors . I do not know how it looks in coupe as I never seen it inside but I suppose that there will be different speaker panel.
Anyway maybe there will be more space to install coaxial speakers. Just to inform - I installed ap inf front doors and apx4 in rear, mounting depth on both is 41 mm but magnet diameter is bigger then original speaker and I had a lot of job to do to install them there.
As Mike said if you would like to have Burmester look just buy metal grills (I did the same - ebay or aliexperss - cost almost nothing but a quality is extremely good).
Original Burmester panels cost a fortune which for me is wasting of money. I would go rather with better speakers instead of buying those panels.
As for sub - there is a space but is it big enough for the sub? I wanted to do the same but then I realize that for my sub speaker depth is not enough. You could buy some shallow mounted sub with built in box there but then the sound. As you could see on my pics I have 10" sub in sealed enclosure which is just behind rear seat and I can say that without increased low freqs. level you just do not hear it enough.
But of course everything depend what is your expectation.
If you would like more info about how to connect HU and other equipment then PM me. I just did it in my car which is also Audio20 and I could give you some advise how to save time on the installation.

Mike5215

Right. I'm guessing the coupe with Burmester gets something in the rear quarter trim panels for 2 ways?

damianw

Burmester panel for rear has 2 ways - audio20 has only mid grill. But to be honest and following most of the advises from others do you really need 2 way in rear part of the car? Coaxial which I have is more then needed. I could even do not have coaxial (or 2 way) at the back of the car. Most important is front scene and sub. Pro always are building systems this way. Rear seat speakers are just to fill the scene.
As for saloon car rear seat can be more occupied (which in my case is not the case - I am driving alone) but coupe?
I would go this way - front door separated 2 way + woofers (as we did in ours), rear speaker even only good mids (or leave original speakers) and good sub (maybe ported). Everything supplied by amplifiers.

Mike5215

I'd go with coaxial in the rear if there's a single grille.

fresh27

Thanks guys,

In the coupe there is only a single grill in the front. No sign of a separate tweeter.

Mike5215

Ah, yeah the sedan has them in the mirror sail panel, the coupe has them in the front doors. I guess it's coaxials!

I auditioned a set of inexpensive MTX 4" coaxials on the bench compared to the Burmester 4". The MTX sounded much warmer and deeper, and didn't gobble up much more power. Depth looked the same, not sure if the protruding tweet would get into the grille though.

damianw

Ok so I did search more for pics and this is how it looks with Burmester for coupe:




And this is how it looks with Audio20:



As Mike mentioned go with coaxial speakers this will the best option in my opinion too.
MTX THUNDER40 4 inch has 1,75" (around 44,5mm) mounting depth which with magnet diameter can be a problem (door panel modification for sure) - my AP4 and APX4 mounting depth is 41mm and this was a problem already.
What about THUNDER35 3.5 inch? Mounting depth is 1,5" (which is around 38 mm) so for sure it will fit.
Other speaker can be install as well but just remember about mounting depth - 40mm in my personal opinion is the maximum.

damianw

Apologize to make a spam on this topic but I just had to share it.
I am fun of F1. I am watching every race since 10 years.
As we all have MB cars we should be a fan of Mercedes team but I am not. I am fan of Raikonen since his back to F1.
Anyway. I've just seen qualification to Canada race. Mercedes won (Hamilton) but this is not the case.
As a services cars Mercedes has been used. Safety car and Medical car. And I just saw one of the car which is medical that it is c class amg.
Beside the car - this awesome car do not has Burmester system I just saw standard black speakers grills . And interior looks exactly the same as mine
And I am happy because I already know that my sound system is better than F1 medical car, AMG btw
Again sorry for the spam

PHX MB Mark

Quick favor: Can someone post the MB part number for the driver side (left) subwoofer module? I have an A20 system but from what I can tell a subwoofer module from the Burm system will drop right in? (of course I'll have to get wire to it)

My idea in order to balance cost with stealth is to do the following. Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

1- add 1" tweets to the front door
2- add a factory sub-module on the left so that I will have a 3-way speaker config in the front
3- add the dual 8" JL box that Mike has in the trunk (self-powered version)
4- add the JL Fix82
5-add a DSP 8 channel amp so that every speaker in the cabin can benefit from being actively crossed over and equalized independently

Any experience to share?

I'm especially interested if anyone has added the left / drivers side sub.

Thanks all!

Mike5215

Good plan! EBay has a new driver's side Burmester Frontbass sub for $150. Auction ID is 302034059679, part #A2058201102.

PHX MB Mark

Mike, thank you, I ordered the left (drivers side) bass module and while I was at it bought the factory tweeters for the front door.

A few more questions:

1- Do you think I should worry about the left and right bass modules being technically different since the right module is the original from my A20 system and the left will be from the Burmester?

2- I'm still trying to get 100% confirmation on whether the base A20 system has VNC or not? Specifically, I want to know if the JLFix82 is an absolute necessity. Can you confirm if the base A20 requires the Fix82?

3- How did you handle cutting the factory wire harness and running wires from the trunk to the factory plug? Perhaps you didn't have to deal with it since the Burmester has the amp in the rear? I'm thinking that an experienced installer will be able to run the speaker wires up to the front of the cabin and simply splice into the factory harness?

If you have any thoughts on the installation, I'd be all "ears" since I'm not going to do it myself and I want to be sure the installer doesn't waste time (e.g. bill me for learning).

Here is the update on my system plans...

I'm sticking with factory drivers all the way around since I believe that power and electronic crossovers will do more to take my system to the next level than changing out the cones. (Though to be clear, if I had budget, I'd strip all the drivers and replace them...:-)

Here is what my system is going to look like:

The front is going to be an active 3-way with factory tweeters, 4" mids and dual midbass in the kick panel locations. They will be powered and crossed over by an AudioControl lc-6.1200 http://www.audiocontrol.com/car-audi...iers/lc-61200/

The rear door will remain stock but be powered by 2 channels of an AudioControl lc-4.800 http://www.audiocontrol.com/car-audi...fiers/lc-4800/ (the signal is going to be fed by the line out of the lc-6.1200)

For sub bass I am going to bridge two of the lc-4.800 channels to power a JL Dual 8" microsub that fits perfectly between my rear trunk pillars. http://www.jlaudio.com/cp208lg-w3v3-...-systems-93295

The AudioControl amps can be easily mounted in the rear under-trunk storage area where I don't have any need for this space, other than for audio equipment!

Even if not needed, I will likely add a JL Fix82 since I'll gain the benefit of a DSP graphic equalizer which will help me tune the system beyond what the analog crossovers in the AudioControl amplifiers can provide.

More thoughts or inputs are always appreciated, and if any forum members are in Phoenix, once completed, I'd be happy to let you audition it since I think she's going to sound SWEET! I have a formal music education and have spent many years in critical listening environments, so my taste is for balanced sound that can rock when needed... I want the system to play loud with clarity, but be detailed at the same time.

Mike5215

I'm thinking no on the Fix82. I don't believe the A20 has VNC, and while it's technically a DSP (since it digitally processes signals) it's more a hands-off OEM integration unit that strips out the factory EQ for a flat low voltage signal. (Like the original JL Cleansweep.)

I know little about the TuN software but it's available for download and can run in simulation mode on a PC without a Fix82 attached. I'd poke around in there and see if you can manually set the crossover filters, adjust EQ (a must), and manually set levels and time correction. If so I'd get it. If not probably not.

http://www.jlaudio.com/Info/TuN+DSP+...tform!/8096706

I'd probably hunt down a right side Frontbass module since there's a speaker size discrepancy.

As far as the install, there may actually be a harness adapter for the A20. The HU is made by an Asian brand (Mitsubishi ?). Otherwise they'll need to clip the speaker wire pairs as they come off the HU, run them back to the trunk to the Fix82 or the amps, then another set of wire pairs have to be run back the other direction from the trunk to the dash to tie back into the factory speaker leads. They're already running 12v from the battery so there's a path they need to open up anyway)

damianw

Maybe I will add something as I did Audio20 upgrade.
So:
1. There will be deference for a front bass (woofer) as different type of speaker but personally I wouldn't worry about that - you will not hear that much difference. But if you want you can buy Burmester front right bass speaker as well
There is no cabling to driver front bass - you will need to run new cable from amp. And as you will use separate channels for front bass speakers (driver and passenger side) I would run two new cables to this speakers from amp directly as the one which is connected to passenger front bass is in parallel to others in original harness.
2. If you will use AudioControl lc-6.1200 (I saw on youtube of Car Audio Fabrication some kind of presentation of this unit - here is the link: and Mark is explaining how to wire it up) then you can take the signal from HU directly as this one has hi input level. Then no additional equipment is necessary. Maybe ACR-1 to control it.
3. I did it this way: I didn't want to cut original harness from HU. Audison has special T connector but it can be done using this kind of connector - Quadlock 40pin:


I did this way - I used this extension cable and I cut speakers wires (schema can be found on internet or wires it self) and it cost me 10Euro instead of 50 Euro for Audison T-connector. Then you will need 2x 4 pair twisted cables - 1 from HU to AudioControl lc-6.1200 and 1 from AudioControl lc-6.1200 back to original harness. Then you will use original cables for front and rear doors.
Consider that AudioControl lc-6.1200 is 6CH amplifier:
Rated Continuous (RMS) Power at 14.4V:

• 4 Ω – 125 W x 6 RMS
• 2 Ω – 200 W x 6 RMS

I would go this way:
- front doors : 2way with passive crossover for tweeter - there is only 1pair cable for mid now so if you would like to separate tweeter you will have to run new 1 pair cable thru door connector - 2 ch out of 6 available.
- rear doors : stock speaker as you planned - 2 ch out of still 4 ch available
- Front bass driver side - 1 ch out of 2 available
- Front bass passenger side - 1 ch out of 1 available
Then you will use all ch. from LC-6.1200. And you can manage crossovers by this amp.
Then for a sub I would use additional amp with pre out from LC-6.1200 dedicated for sub - always sub are the most powerful speaker and they need "juice".
You will do the installation as I did in trunk so you have to consider running cable from battery up to trunk (I pulled 4AWG) and then ground cable (you can find ground point in the trunk easily - there is couple of them of right side).
As per installation - to get to front bass you need to remove front carpets on both sides. To run cable to trunk you will have to remove front passenger seat as this will be easier to access some kind of cable tray which is under the carpet. And of course trunk lining has to be removed - stupid plastic clips are one time use so order few of them.
If the job will be done by shop then I supposed that max 3 full days will be enough to do the job.

PHX MB Mark

Did you order clips from the dealer, or are they readily available online?

BTW - thanks for the detail, this is all extremely helpful information, I really appreciate it!

KienPC

Hi all,

I have friend who has W204 Audio20 asked me to upgrade his audio system.
For speaker, processor .. not a big issue for me the but the coding of low level audio out to be a issue.

For the BMW I have done many time by changing the sound system from "internal amp" to "external amp" then the output speaker high-level become to low-level with much better quality.

For W204 I change HU45/VCD_TGW_parameter: "force audio via internal amp" to "force audio external amp" but no sound at the out put of speaker ..

Can anyone help to guide me the coding to get the low-level signal from w204 Audio 20 .

I have Vediamo & SD C4

Mike5215

I've heard of that coding capability but I'm not sure it's possible in the 205 A20. I know traditional analog line level converters could be noisy but the newer digital ones seem to have no problem stepping down speaker level to a clean line level. Might be less headaches that route.

KienPC

The new DSP can accept Hi-level input with de-eq capability, bring us very good sound quality (I'm Audison Distributor in Vietnam, very familiar with Bit & ap 8.9).

However the low-level signal still much better choice in term of quality/cost.

The best sound quality is from MOST by using Mobridge adapter ... most costly choice ..

Mike5215

Yeah, I've used MoBridge stuff before. On the A20 though there's no MOST ring. It would be helpful on a Burmester though. Can you use Bit Ends instead?