EKaru

info on the upcoming S6 and ultra high performance RS6:

http://www.germancarfans.com/spyphot...01/audi/1.html

skahung

We're not saying these are bad cars, I love the Audis...just think is not worth it. Everyone has there own POW.

M&M

Ekaru, RS6 is slow in a straight line.

It's slow in the corners.

It's heavy.

If you live in a hot dry climate you are being penalised by having to lug around all that quattro dead weight for no reason. I mean modern ESP/DSC systems are adequate enough.

I appreciate that you are a fan of the marque, but maybe they aren't getting the prices because they ain't all that you think they are. And yeah I've driven RS6's. Modifed ones are fast though, but stock they aren't.

AMGod

Auto Motor Und Sport should be publishing results soon. Everyone has a right to their opinion. However, some may hold a bias closer to reality based on real world experience. Having owned both an E55 and an RS6 while generally not liking sedans over 3500 lbs, I ended up with a C32. The RS6 in stock form buried the E55 in terms of handling prowess. After the 520 HP MTM upgrade, it killed it in straight line acceleration as well. Just $.02 based on prior ownership.

2QUIK4U

I totally agree with you. I think some people here don't understand the race inspired technology in these cars and don't appreciate how well these cars handle. The new audi RS4 engine utilizes FSI technology from the R8 race car, which has been the leading car in Le Mans for over the past 4 years.
I used to own an S3 and my dad currently drives the RS6+. I have driven the old RS4, the old RS2, S2, etc. all of which have amazed me. The way these cars handle is incredible and they are truly designed by Quattro GmbH to be as good on the track as they are on the road.

No offense to any C55 drivers (I am looking to buy a C55 right now), but I think that the new RS4 will destroy the C55 on the track. That being said, the new RS4 will have difficulty keeping up in a straight line 0-60 race. These are just two totally different automobiles and comparing them is like comparing apples to oranges. The C55 has more low-end torque, making it a better car for the daily driver who appreciates the "press you in the seat" kind of acceleration. Whereas the new RS4 has a totally different power band and is probably more comparable to the M3. This car is designed to be driven in the upper RPM range and really shines on the track.

I think that Audi has set the bar quite high with the new RS4 and I am certain that this car will have amazing times on Hockenheim and the Nurburgring.

05C55

Good call, I doubt that the McClaren Mercedes and Williams BMW F1 teams are having any effect on the technology used by either Mercedes or BMW.

The RS4 is only the first of the three makes to debut their latest hardware and as mentioned previously, based on what we already know, the RS4 will have its hands full with a 400+hp M3 and 410+ Hp C class AMG. Like I said, for what Audi will undoubtedly ask for the RS4, it is more than likely it will be equalled or even bested by cheaper cars from BMW and AMG.

BlackC230Coupe

Can someone tell me what issue this was in? no one has said anything and so many people are asking! i have the August issue and its not in there.

steve s

bmw: smg.. v10.. individual throttle bodies..
mb: slr..

AMGod

Any chance this is a comparo of the C32, M3, and s4 done a bunch of issues back?

S4 v. C32

'First Place
Audi S4 Quattro
A big V-8 changes everything. This new S4 makes the deep-throated rumblings you just don’t expect from smaller cars—and that famous burble on decel. Who needs Bose?

Turbos, as in Audi’s previous S4, can be plenty fast, but they never have the no-waiting torque, nor do they ramp up in a trusty way as you dip into the power. And they never have the magic burble, either.

This new S4 gets the company’s 4163cc, five-valves-per-cylinder, all-aluminum V-8 rated at 340 horsepower at 7000 rpm. It has a bottomless reservoir of torque—adrenaline delivery, no waiting—and great flexibility. Nothing loafs along like a substantial V-8. This one, Audi says, is no heavier than the twin-turbo 2.7 V-6 of the previous S4.

It mates to a six-speed manual gearbox (an automatic is available) and Quattro all-wheel drive with a Torsen center differential. Lots of machinery has been tucked under the A4’s pretty-much-unchanged skin, including 8.0-by-18-inch wheels with 235/40 tires and 13.6-inch vented front brake discs.

All these details work together in tightly orchestrated harmony. The controls are light to the touch, including the clutch. The shifter snicks through its pattern happily, and the steering feels lively and quick. Effort increases nicely with speed.

Out on the twisty roads, the S4 quickly became the favorite. The firm Recaro bucket keeps the driver in place without straining. The stability control is so subtle in its operation that you never feel it intrude (unless you’ve made a big mistake). Chassis dynamics are simply superb. As you brake deep into a turn, the S4 puts its belly to the ground and maintains amazing stability as you pick up the arc toward the exit and squeeze on the power. Roll angles are tightly controlled. The shocks keep body motions on a short leash. You can feel the tires scratching and straining for grip as the front and rear electronic differential locks respond to the V-8 torque. The Quattro’s stern discipline keeps redistributing the driving forces, allowing you to get the throttle open early yet cling confidently to your intended line. This is a car that’ll work with you! Few sporting cars are this open in their communication, and so disinclined to mischief. Of this trio, the S4 is in a class by itself, scoring the full 10 points in our handling rating, two above the M3 and three above the C32. It also earned a 10 in fun to drive, decisively above the others. Would the throaty motor music be worth a point all by itself? It might.

There is a downside to the taut chassis muscles, however. The ride quality is darn stiff. The S4 would find jolts on glass roads. Ride impacts may be marginally sharper than the M3’s, although the tires are somewhat quieter over texture. ****pit noises are less than in the M3, but both are similar in the vibes they put through the seat on the interstate.

Interior style follows Audi’s tasteful approach, black with thin chrome bezels and textured sweeps of metal in place of the wood trim of other models. The gas pedal is tight against the tunnel, meaning that the driver’s knee gets a good polishing. The brake pedal is high, adding to the challenge of heel-and-toe operation. The HVAC controls are low, and they mostly go invisible when you’re wearing sunglasses. The fat wheel rim and high-sided Recaros work together to make wide guys complain about entry and exit. Tilting the wheel helps, of course. But a confining driver space is inherent to sporting cars. It’s a part of the S4’s authenticity. And it pays off when you’re cooking.

Unfortunately, the rear-seat space is sporty, too. The cushion is deeply contoured for two occupants, which means passengers three across will all be sitting in the wrong places.

But who cares? This four-door is all about mainlining adrenaline to the left front seat, and it delivers three bags full. We predict the S4 will soon become famous for the trusty way it carves up the back roads. The V-8 rumble and its generosity of torque just add to the joy.

Here’s your chance to catch a rising star.'

'Third Place
Mercedes-Benz C32 AMG
If this adventure is a daring daylight probe into the upper reaches of a driver’s pulse rate, which it is, then it sets up the expectation that the most civilized entry will finish last. It did.

For the purest adrenaline jolt, you need a manual gearbox. The C32 AMG comes in five-speed auto only. Not a good start.

Still, not every enthusiast wants his juices stimulated to a full-bore gush all the time. This Benz has an appealing way of butting out of the conversation at just the right times. Planning an interstate jaunt? The C32 is easily the smoothest and quietest of the group when you need a transit capsule, with the least abusive ride. Straight-ahead stability is excellent. You can click off miles by the hundreds without pain.

And don’t forget those times when it’s your turn to drive the foursome off to dinner. Back-seaters never share the adrenaline, only the abuse. This Benz tops the others for space and comfort, and it won’t beat up on your friends (if the roads are decent).

Moreover, it’s really quite endearing in the way it goes about your daily rounds. The steering is quick and sharp, and the suspension, which resists cornering roll as if it had taken a solemn vow, resists brake dive, too. The seat is shaped exactly right to hold you in place. You find yourself grinning as you carve your path. Want to nail that Starbucks cup as it rolls toward the ditch? No problem. With the front tire or the rear? You really feel a gymnast’s confidence about maneuverability.

Just one little problem—this is a gathering of extremist cars. It’s about pushing limits, and doing so with cool aplomb. What’ll she do? And the civilized little C32 loses its poise under pressure.

Tire grip, as measured on the skidpad, is less than the others, 0.81 g versus the Audi’s 0.85 and the BMW’s 0.87. But that’s a minor concern compared with the way the Benz feels when pushed. First, the computer stability control won’t let you anywhere close to the edge. It kills the power in a big way when lateral g ramps up beyond “brisk.” Push the ESP button to cancel, and the previously polite C32 goes incommunicado. The brakes bring on huge understeer as you go deep into turns. And the fast-ratio steering gives very little sense of slip in the front tires. This is a car in which you cautiously edge up and up toward the limit and hope you never quite get there.

Maintaining control during our lane-change test was iffy, too, with many screaming-tire skids off the course. This car hates our test procedure, which requires ESP off. With ESP on, it’s stable and slow. With ESP off, the C32 was quicker than the Audi on a lucky run. But most runs were cone whackers. For road emergencies, we’d leave the ESP on.

When the path is straight, however, the C32 really lays its ears back. The engine is an AMG adaptation of M-B’s 3.2-liter V-6, supercharged to 349 horsepower. The crank-driven blower is a Lysholm-type using meshed screws to give positive displacement. In other words, big torque at low revs. Thrust tracks your right foot exactly.

Acceleration is as thrilling as it is easy to produce. The Benz was a fraction behind the others to 60 mph, fastest at the end of the quarter-mile, and tied with the others for time to that distance, clocking 106 mph through the eyes. You won’t confuse the C32 with a civilized car when the hammer is down. It screams a hard yowl toward the 6200-rpm indicated redline. Idle is remarkably clattery, too.

The automatic clicks off snappy shifts. It learns quickly of your moods (the computer is smart when it wants to be) and does well at anticipating when to change gears when you’re hustling. We very much like the manumatic shifter. Nudge the lever left for down, right for up, or hold right for a prompt default to D when you’re done playing.

Done? Are you ever done? The C32 ends up third because, as a playmate, it’s always a bit aloof.'


Or the one with S4, CTS-V, and C55?

S4 v. C55

'First Place
Audi S4 Quattro

A racetrack is the ideal environment for establishing a car's absolute limits. It eliminates potentially problematic encounters with civilian traffic and/or lame explanations to law-enforcement types. But it would be a mistake to base a verdict solely on a car's track performance.

The S4 makes an excellent case in point on this score. Although it posted the second-best lap time (1:20.60, 89.3 mph), it was achieved at the expense of severe punishment to the left-front tire and one hair-raising 120-mph off-track experience at Nelson's famous kink, a right-hand turn that can be taken flat-out in some cars, and in others not. The Audi was one of the nots, as your narrator learned in a lengthy slide for life that was a consequence of overconfidence and no fault of the Audi.

Like most all-wheel-drive cars on dry pavement, the S4's defining dynamic trait is understeer. In addition to the limits imposed by all-wheel drive, the S4 is held back by a hefty curb weight—3837 pounds, just 70 pounds less than the much bigger Cadillac—and a pronounced forward weight bias: 61.9 percent of the mass is on the front wheels.

In addition to retarding progress around a road circuit, the S4's mass also held it back in straight-ahead sprints. The willingness of the Audi's 4.2-liter aluminum V-8 is a treat, but at 340 horsepower and 302 pound-feet of torque, it yields the least advantageous power-to-weight ratio in this group, which adds up to the slowest acceleration times: 0-to-60 in 5.1 seconds and the quarter-mile in 13.7 seconds at 102 mph. It was also slowest in our lane-change test and posted the longest stopping distance from 70 mph—177 feet, 10 feet longer than the Cadillac, 12 more than the Benz.

However, all these small numeric deficits are race- and test-track data and don't reflect what this car is like to live with in the real world. Put the S4 on a wandering back road, and its statistical shortfalls become nonissues. The seductive baritone of the V-8, the superb fit of the beautifully bolstered leather bucket seats, the sweet precision of the six-speed gearbox, the absolute certainty that goes with every move—the Audi satisfies all the driver's senses.

And that includes the senses that trigger the adrenal gland. Yes, the S4 was a half-step slow at the test track versus its competition, but 5.1 seconds to 60 is brisk by most standards, and the V-8 delivers more than enough punch to make short work of passing in tight situations. Similarly, the Audi's persistent understeer translates as unflappable poise in decreasing-radius turns and the other little surprises that make southeast Ohio highways so entertaining.

As with any car, there are small irritations. The S4's styling distinctions include brightwork on the side mirrors and peculiar ground-effects strakes along the lower body-side panels. Both touches seem out of place on this otherwise clean shape. The rear seats were the tightest in this trio, although quite tolerable for two adults; the climate controls are hard to see through sunglasses; the foot-pedal arrangement doesn't lend itself to heel-and-toeing as well as the Cadillac's layout; and at least one test driver was outraged at the absence of a nav system in a car with a price of 50 grand.

Still, we saw the Audi's value quotient about the same as the Caddy's, and the S4 drew winning marks in major scoring areas such as driver comfort, ride quality, and steering feel—categories that say a lot about what a car will be like to live with day in, day out, all roads, all traffic situations.

In the same vein, the Audi dominated our two distinct subjective categories—fun to drive and gotta have it, first in the former, tied with the C55 in the latter.

In our 2003 comparo, we called the S4 "a rising star." This time around it seems clear that the new star has fully risen. As one logbook writer observed, the S4 is "a thoroughly lovable sports sedan. How often do we get to say that?" Not often enough.'

'Third Place
Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG


Judging by the new hot rods they seem to create about every 13.7 days, the guys at AMG must not require any sleep. The Mercedes-Benz high-performance division adds hot sauce to almost every vehicle in the company's lineup, and the C55 is just the latest in an ongoing series. But we don't mean to sound blasé. No, no. Replacing the C32, the C55 brings eight-cylinder power to the current-gen C-class, featuring a 5.4-liter, 24-valve V-8 in place of the C32's 3.2-liter supercharged and intercooled V-6.

That works out to a little more horsepower—362 versus the 3.2's 349—and a lot more torque—376 pound-feet versus 332. More grunt, allied with a slight reduction in mass—at 3588 pounds, the C55 was 63 pounds lighter than last year's C32, and by far the lightest car in this test group—inevitably gets the pilot from zero to ohmigawd in less time. The supercharged C32 ran to 60 mph in 5.2 seconds and turned the quarter-mile in 13.6 seconds at 106 mph. The C55 hit 60 in just 4.7 seconds and covered the quarter in 13.3 at 108 mph, figures that would have been best in test last time around and were neck and neck with the more powerful Caddy in this three-ring circus. The Benz was quickest to 60 and 100 mph, and it was only at higher speeds that the Cadillac's Corvette engine really asserted itself.

This made us wonder, as usual, what the C55 might have achieved had it been equipped with a manual transmission instead of a five-speed automatic, but since the automatic continues to be the only gearbox offered, we'll never know. On the other hand, the manumatic function of this particular automatic was better than others we've encountered from the same source—more responsive to driver commands and less inclined to upshift on its own initiative.

There was more to like than just straight-ahead urgency. Although none of these four-door marauders is guilty of excessive exterior embellishment, the C55 got high marks for its clean wedge shape and restrained AMG trim. One test driver thought the mesh of the lower grille looked like "something from a garage sale in Stuttgart," but the Benz was the styling champ, and its battleship-gray paint job was appreciated by those who value stealth in cars of this potential (clue: us).

The generally high level of appreciation continues within. The simple, well-placed controls are familiar, the sloping hood and the low cowl allow excellent forward sightlines, the V-8 infuses the interior with a seductive growl when the driver dials up haste, and the nicely bolstered leather seats keep driver and front-seat passenger firmly anchored when the road gets kinky.

So why is this improved C-rod third of three? Quick though it is, the C55 wound up with a number of debits on its dynamic score sheet. Ride quality came in for considerable carping. The C32 fared well in this department, but that test was conducted on smooth Arizona highways, in contrast to the frost-fractured pavement of the heartland, where impact harshness on sharp bumps was high.

You might expect this stiff ride quality to equate with crisp racetrack handling, but that was not the case. There was a surprising amount of up-and-down motion in the suspension, accompanied by relentless understeer, which was aggravated by high steering effort at almost any speed. Mercedes seems to be making the old GM mistake of confusing effort with feel, and in this case it has created an exaggerated sense of mass, even though the Benz was the lightest car in the group.

Even with the ESP switched off, the C55's stability system still asserts itself to some degree, contributing to understeer. (It can be totally deactivated, but this is intended for dyno testing.) We also noted a deterioration in the Benz's braking prowess during lapping at Nelson Ledges. Although the C55 posted the shortest stopping distance in our instrumented testing—a commendable 165 feet from 70 mph—the pedal quickly became spongy on the track, even though Nelson Ledges isn't particularly hard on brakes. Spongy brakes will certainly stimulate the old adrenal gland, but that's not our idea of a desirable way to get the adrenaline flowing.

The upshot of the foregoing was the slowest lap times at the racetrack—a best of 1:21.12, or 88.8 mph—and third-of-three scores for steering feel, handling, and fun to drive. And with the highest prices in the trio—base and as-tested—it also drew an indifferent score for value. As a consequence, the C55 finished behind the CTS-V by one point. We can only hope this doesn't provoke any arrests in Stuttgart.'

FrankW

havent' read the new issue yet, but just want to say that RS4's must-have factor is like 200% more than the C55 IMO. I've ask two different dealership and they both said the C55's not selling as well as the C32 did.

Fikse

In all reality, it doesn't matter..... at least in the US, they just won't sell hardly at all for $80k..... the C55 isn't supposed to be a "track" car, so there is no point to compare them in that sense..... but for everyday driving, you can certainly compare the upcoming C AMG, the upcoming M3, and the RS4...... and if the price points stay similar, $61k for a loaded C AMG, $55k for a loaded M3, and $80k for an RS4..... it will not sell.... they'll take it home after one year like the RS6.....

FrankW

they pulled the RS6?? damn

EKaru

Why would Audi make the same mistake twice?

Also this comparo is in the SEPT. issue of C&D .... not Aug.
Eric..

2QUIK4U

You are right and you make an excellent point, namely that we shouldn't be comparing the C55 to the new RS4 with respect to both price and performance. Maybe to the C63 if and when it comes out or some other car that the engineers in Affalterbach are in the process of creating. At this point that is mere speculation anyways. I am sure that BMW and Mercedes are developing something to level the playing field, but the C55 and Audi RS4 remain in two different leagues.

CynCarvin32

well i guess quattro does not help the champion audi's on dry road courses. last time i checked 4 wheels pulling a car makes it easier to put power down. yes the weight distribution of the audi is not the best but with a a decent alignment and well sorted out spring rates and shock valving an Audi can really perform. 4wd is an asset in all conditions as long as you dial out the terrible understeer these cars tend to have stock.

ESP and DSC are useless for performance driving. They work well to save your toosh when you make an error on the street or have a misshap in foul weather. The system NEVER will work for you at the track unless its the system in a 997 or Corvette. The ESP and DSC systems are set in intrude at the first sign of a slide and that makes performance driving a bore. Sometimes you might want to throttle steer and the car says no no... not now my good lad....that might be fun!

CynCarvin32

no he is mistaken because it was "pulled" due to crash standards and emissions regulations. They felt it crazy to certify the car for the US market for the next year of production when they only sell a few units. That also makes the 2003 cars more exclusive to that might be a good idea. I mean I see more AMG 55k's in LA than I do 500's. It is really getting old. AMG is not exclusive...just plain Jane in so-cal.

mb needs to make rare car again. back in the day of the 190E 2.3-16, 500E and C36 there was 1 performance version for the whole mb line but now you can get a 500 hp mini-van and a 500 hp suv and a 500 hp 4 door (in 4 forms) and... and... and.... and....

and when you import 10k "rare" cars a year to the states how rare are they really?

You know a C36 or 500E will be a collectors car but not current AMG's... dime a dozen....

M&M

Yeah true, I see the F1 cars reall struggle 2 put 900hp down through 2 wheels. I see the Enzo, GT2 as wel are undrivable. Say have you driven a well sorted RWD on a track? I drove a 600hp Porsche for a few laps & had no problem putting the power down. Reason being it was so fast & carried so mych speed through he corners that I never used the 1st 2 gears. The long 3rs gear meant that it had ZERO tractions problems on a high speed circuit.

AMGod

The RS6 was only intended to be sold for one year. Former executive Len Hunt was steadfast in giving the American market access to Quattro Gmbh cars to highlight their racing success in IMSA with the R8 and their victory in the Speedvision Challenge. The car has the same crash rating as every other A6. It was intended as a one year release initially and was a marketing test point for Audi U.S.A. It was deemed so successful that they will be doing the same thing on all RS cars. These car went out the door for $10K over sticker because demand was so high. If you ever get a chance to drive one, you'll know why. My E55 had to go pretty quick before it depreciated out from under me in contrast. My RS6 sold over the sticker recently at the dealer again as a two year old vehicle.

scovit

I have read the issue and will try to post a copy on the site. Extremely interesting article. Positives for all 3 cars and negatives.

mez456

Scovit...do you remember which issue it is?

Mez

EKaru

latest sept. issue of C&D

AMGod

The B6 RS4 has not been released in Europe yet. Did they test the old bi-turbo RS4? I have Ring times of that.

B5 RS4 vs. C55


'A Flood of New Audis Bound for America
Date Posted 02-24-2005

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. — Audi of America — which is rolling out the new A3 hatchback, A4 sedan and A6 Avant wagon this year — will continue its new-product torrent in 2006 with the launch of the high-performance RS4 and the brand's first-ever SUV, the Q7.

The RS4 will be priced around $70,000, Johan de Nysschen, Audi of America's executive vice president, told Inside Line. He added, "The only choices will be color and trim."

De Nysschen said the Q7, a seven-passenger SUV, will be "the star of 2006" for Audi of America. The vehicle will debut this fall at the Frankfurt auto show and will hit the U.S. market in mid-2006.

He said it will be priced from $40,000 to $55,000, and will compete with the BMW X5 and the Porsche Cayenne. It will be offered with a 4.2-liter V8 and one of two V6 engines — the 255-hp 3.2-liter that powers the new 2005 A4 sedan or a more powerful 3.6-liter V6.

The five-passenger Q5 compact SUV will debut in 2008 or 2009, he said. It will be priced from around $35,000 and will compete against the BMW X3. He said it would "probably not have a V8 option." The Q5, which will share a platform with the A4, is likely to be powered by either a 2.0-liter four-cylinder or a 3.2-liter V6.

What this means to you: Whether performance or carrying capacity is a priority, Audi's U.S. fans will soon be able to salivate over a full plate of new products.'

skahung

Funny how I saw a RS6 yesterday after reading this post...It's my 1st time seeing a RS6

kip

http://www.caranddriver.com/article....rticle_id=9642

They say: $55k (RS4)

FrankW

that's probably the base price. after you added some options and taxes and all it'll probably be around high $60s. The S4 is around $50s so it sounds about right for the RS4