Esp...
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
From: Great White North (the one with the crappy dollar)
2002 c32
Esp...
Many may know of my love/HATE relationship with my 2k2 ESP skizo behaviour. Others, like Prasith, also have stated "The only reason I would want a C55 is for the hope that they improved ESP". Does anyone truly know if the ESP between 2k2 - 2k4 has evolved at all that it would warrant an upgrade change in hardware/software (btw if it does it should be "warranty" coverage!). I think some of our tuner friends (Evosport, etc..) would be in the best position to offer some valuable info/opinions on this as they have had a range of vehicles to work on.
I would also like to know what software the F-1 c32 wagon is running, I'm sure it does not exhibit any hesitation and power cut out....
I would gladly $pend money on eliminating this problem (flaw) before even thinking about increasing my RWHP.
my 0.2cents
lap
I would also like to know what software the F-1 c32 wagon is running, I'm sure it does not exhibit any hesitation and power cut out....
I would gladly $pend money on eliminating this problem (flaw) before even thinking about increasing my RWHP.
my 0.2cents
lap
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,289
Likes: 3
From: OC
C32
I don't think that there is any difference between the ESP on a 02 C32 and a 04 C32. The C55 maybe.
I can tell you that adding more HP to the C32 does not make the ESP intervention any worse as you think it might. The only time it seems to be a big problem is on the 1-2 upshift, but I still think part of that hesitation is because the car hits the rev limiter. The ESP triangle does not always flash at the 1-2 shift.
I can tell you that adding more HP to the C32 does not make the ESP intervention any worse as you think it might. The only time it seems to be a big problem is on the 1-2 upshift, but I still think part of that hesitation is because the car hits the rev limiter. The ESP triangle does not always flash at the 1-2 shift.
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 447
Likes: 0
From: Banana Republic of Louisiana
2002 E55K RENNtech HP
ESP
I had a '99 E55 and it would hit the rev limiter at the 1-2 shift if a downshift to first was forced at around 20mph. From a dead stop with wide open throttle it didn't happen. I believe this problem could be addressed by raising the rev limiter but MB would not do this due to warranty concerns.
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 371
Likes: 0
From: Boston/Hartford
lap,
I heard from some people that the software may be different for the 04 models as the ESP doesn't come on as frequently.
I have an 03 and it is a nuisance. I am fairly certain it is no different than the 02 or even different from a regular c class. I recently had my ESP module fully replaced because of a faulty wiring harness and it actually seems to be worse. I can't confirm this because it has been very cold and I have snows on the car so the ESP may be coming on more frequently because I am running significantly less tire on the rear.
In my opinion the problem with ESP is as follows. AMG uses it as a substitute for a mechanical differential (this is true even on the C55). It is especially noticeable on corner exit when you into WOT at the apex. It does not like to chirp the tires and the ESP comes on. In a MB event I talked to one of the AMG hot lap drivers and he said the same thing. In my opinion more power would make this situation worse when coming out of the corner.
Unfortunately I don't know if any tuners will ever touch ESP because of the legal implications. Also the amount of certification needed to make it happen would make it costly. Only a really large tuner like Brabus or Renntech could make it happen. Also I am sure it would void your warranty and could pose serious safety concerns if not done properly. However if it was available I would be first in line. If it cost the same as upgrading the suspension with CO I would do it in a heartbeat.
I drive with esp off and as long as you bring the power on smoothly (which is good technique anyways) it seems to be ok. You just can't get on the accelerator hard like you could on a porsche.
Prasith
my .02
I heard from some people that the software may be different for the 04 models as the ESP doesn't come on as frequently.
I have an 03 and it is a nuisance. I am fairly certain it is no different than the 02 or even different from a regular c class. I recently had my ESP module fully replaced because of a faulty wiring harness and it actually seems to be worse. I can't confirm this because it has been very cold and I have snows on the car so the ESP may be coming on more frequently because I am running significantly less tire on the rear.
In my opinion the problem with ESP is as follows. AMG uses it as a substitute for a mechanical differential (this is true even on the C55). It is especially noticeable on corner exit when you into WOT at the apex. It does not like to chirp the tires and the ESP comes on. In a MB event I talked to one of the AMG hot lap drivers and he said the same thing. In my opinion more power would make this situation worse when coming out of the corner.
Unfortunately I don't know if any tuners will ever touch ESP because of the legal implications. Also the amount of certification needed to make it happen would make it costly. Only a really large tuner like Brabus or Renntech could make it happen. Also I am sure it would void your warranty and could pose serious safety concerns if not done properly. However if it was available I would be first in line. If it cost the same as upgrading the suspension with CO I would do it in a heartbeat.
I drive with esp off and as long as you bring the power on smoothly (which is good technique anyways) it seems to be ok. You just can't get on the accelerator hard like you could on a porsche.
Prasith
my .02
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 677
Likes: 0
Any knowledgable tuner could program ESP out, maybe there hasnt been enough interest ($$$ profit potential) for a tuner to do this. There are start up tuners that can reprogram haldex units to control the front and rear power distribution on awd cars, cut off ESP, etc...so i dont think it would require a giant in the biz to do it
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 371
Likes: 0
From: Boston/Hartford
s4,
I am not saying that a knowledgeable tuner couldn't do it, but rather would they.
ESP plays a lot of roles in our car and safety is a really big part of that. Trying to tune down intervention for performance is a very fine balancing act that needs to be tested and extensively. If it was easy then AMG would have done that for our car. As much as I hate ESP it has helped me greatly in the winter and i am sure has saved many lives on the road.
Which company would take that liability. You will almost definitely be a candidate for being sued by somebody that claimed the ESP programming caused them to lose control and be harmed.
Also if I were to go with a mod like this I would want to go with the most reputable and largest tuner for the peace of mind.
I am sure it can be done but who would sell it?
Prasith
I am not saying that a knowledgeable tuner couldn't do it, but rather would they.
ESP plays a lot of roles in our car and safety is a really big part of that. Trying to tune down intervention for performance is a very fine balancing act that needs to be tested and extensively. If it was easy then AMG would have done that for our car. As much as I hate ESP it has helped me greatly in the winter and i am sure has saved many lives on the road.
Which company would take that liability. You will almost definitely be a candidate for being sued by somebody that claimed the ESP programming caused them to lose control and be harmed.
Also if I were to go with a mod like this I would want to go with the most reputable and largest tuner for the peace of mind.
I am sure it can be done but who would sell it?
Prasith
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 677
Likes: 0
Originally posted by Prasith32
s4,
I am sure it can be done but who would sell it?
Prasith
s4,
I am sure it can be done but who would sell it?
Prasith
People can already completely disable ESP through dyno mode, so if you know what you are doing, you are the only one liable for any damages that follow.
Id prefer to have one setting equal to the current ESP off mode, then another which can completely turn it off.
Trending Topics
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
From: Great White North (the one with the crappy dollar)
2002 c32
just to add to this..
it is my understanding (confirmed by various MB dealerships in the area, etc.) that the c32 ESP program = same as c320 !!!! .... makes sense as I can pull out of any corner in and around my office neighbourhood "CONSISTENTLY" faster w/out ESP intervention with a loaner c320 than my c32.
Also, techinically "ANY" aftermarket tuning can give you "problems" with your insurance company. In Italy for example, you cannot even change to a +1 tire application if the vehicle was not equipped from the factory to do so....the local police/carabinieri will see to it that you enjoy their public transit system home as they impound your vehicle.
One other comment: I think that although technology is GREAT (read: I am a TECHNO GEEK -have started with Comodore 64 and had palms, ipaqs since their inception etc.) it must have its "proper" application. I just think we got seriously short-changed with our version of ESP !
HELPFUL NOTE: Winter mode; ESP ON; drop the gear lever down to 2; click again to 1 <--- this seems to reduce the intermittent "bogging" down on a quick start say to make a fast left turn from a standing start. (now I have to drive this way to make the lawyers happy
)
Also, techinically "ANY" aftermarket tuning can give you "problems" with your insurance company. In Italy for example, you cannot even change to a +1 tire application if the vehicle was not equipped from the factory to do so....the local police/carabinieri will see to it that you enjoy their public transit system home as they impound your vehicle.
One other comment: I think that although technology is GREAT (read: I am a TECHNO GEEK -have started with Comodore 64 and had palms, ipaqs since their inception etc.) it must have its "proper" application. I just think we got seriously short-changed with our version of ESP !
HELPFUL NOTE: Winter mode; ESP ON; drop the gear lever down to 2; click again to 1 <--- this seems to reduce the intermittent "bogging" down on a quick start say to make a fast left turn from a standing start. (now I have to drive this way to make the lawyers happy
)
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
6 Mercedes Models That Did NOT Age Well (But Are Somehow Still Cool)
Verdad Gallardo
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,445
Likes: 3
From: WOT somewhere in the Bay Area
1951 Caterpiller D6
Re: ESP
Originally posted by James F. Cannon
I had a '99 E55 and it would hit the rev limiter at the 1-2 shift if a downshift to first was forced at around 20mph. From a dead stop with wide open throttle it didn't happen. I believe this problem could be addressed by raising the rev limiter but MB would not do this due to warranty concerns.
I had a '99 E55 and it would hit the rev limiter at the 1-2 shift if a downshift to first was forced at around 20mph. From a dead stop with wide open throttle it didn't happen. I believe this problem could be addressed by raising the rev limiter but MB would not do this due to warranty concerns.
I've always hated the ESP intervention when pulling out of driveways into traffic. Very embarassing to have ESP cut power while traffic barrels down on you then release all of it at once. If you really have your foot in it, the damn thing cuts out again as the tires break loose!
I often drive a '99 E55 and a '00 E430 on the same roads and find that the ESP on the 430 intervenes less often. I thoght this made the car faster through the low speed twisties but when I compared cornering speeds, the E55 was taking the corner faster. In the high speed stuff, the 430 intervened more at a lower speed than the 55. Makes sense since the suspension and tires are much better on the 55. I also had the opportunity to run a 2002 E55 with EU spings, 19" HRE and S03 tires with similar results as the '99
The comment about the ESP being the same on AMG as standard cars "feels" true. The intervention on the E430 is subtle compared to the E55. It would appear that MB didn't account for the brakes and tires on the 55 being so effective.
Would LSD really help reduce ESP intervention? Most of the E class intervention in cornering is because of understeer. In straight line accelleration it might help but with so much power, I suspect that it wouldn't be as big as most would think. After all, these cars spin both wheels easily with ESP off already.
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 677
Likes: 0
Re: Re: ESP
Originally posted by E55AMG99
I've always hated the ESP intervention when pulling out of driveways into traffic. Very embarassing to have ESP cut power while traffic barrels down on you then release all of it at once. If you really have your foot in it, the damn thing cuts out again as the tires break loose!
I've always hated the ESP intervention when pulling out of driveways into traffic. Very embarassing to have ESP cut power while traffic barrels down on you then release all of it at once. If you really have your foot in it, the damn thing cuts out again as the tires break loose!
I hate this as well. Its actually quite dangerous when you make a quick getaway. Even with ESP off, its intrusive and cuts off power. MB screwed up in this area.
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 447
Likes: 0
From: Banana Republic of Louisiana
2002 E55K RENNtech HP
E55AMG99
Very embarassing to have ESP cut power while traffic barrels down on you then release all of it at once. If you really have your foot in it, the damn thing cuts out again as the tires break loose!
Never experienced this problem unless the road was wet. I had a '97 E420 prior to my '99 E55 that was really bad on wet roads ( seemed to almost kill the engine). The ESP on the '99 E55 seemed less intrusive but the difference may have been due to tire size and traction.
Since my RENNtech upgrades on my '02 E55 ESP intervention seems diminished but this may be due to the big increase in power overwhelming the brakes. I really don't know!
My friend (my401) has an '03 C32 and complains about his ESP with experiences similar to those you have described.
Maybe it's bad driving habits!
Very embarassing to have ESP cut power while traffic barrels down on you then release all of it at once. If you really have your foot in it, the damn thing cuts out again as the tires break loose!
Never experienced this problem unless the road was wet. I had a '97 E420 prior to my '99 E55 that was really bad on wet roads ( seemed to almost kill the engine). The ESP on the '99 E55 seemed less intrusive but the difference may have been due to tire size and traction.
Since my RENNtech upgrades on my '02 E55 ESP intervention seems diminished but this may be due to the big increase in power overwhelming the brakes. I really don't know!
My friend (my401) has an '03 C32 and complains about his ESP with experiences similar to those you have described.
Maybe it's bad driving habits!
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 371
Likes: 0
From: Boston/Hartford
He He,
Yes i am sure my driving habits are one of the main causes for my annual tire expenses.
So it seems that everybody agrees that ESP stinks. I feel it is slightly better with it turned off but still a nuisance. Has anyone tried to turn it off completely on the track? I would love to see how the car powers out of turns with it. Do the tires spin a lot does one spin and the other not? Has anybody that has tried this please comment.
I also came across an interesting company. My local BMW-CCA chapter is doing a tech session with this company.
http://www.autologic-diagnos.com/
They seem to have computer systems that can do most of the things that the Star Diagnostic system can do at the dealer.
It does note that ESP/Traction System/BAS options are available and changeable.
If this works then we can plug it up before the track and tweak with certain aspects of it.
I will find out more and post what I find. If anybody has any info about this please let me know.
Prasith
Yes i am sure my driving habits are one of the main causes for my annual tire expenses.
So it seems that everybody agrees that ESP stinks. I feel it is slightly better with it turned off but still a nuisance. Has anyone tried to turn it off completely on the track? I would love to see how the car powers out of turns with it. Do the tires spin a lot does one spin and the other not? Has anybody that has tried this please comment.
I also came across an interesting company. My local BMW-CCA chapter is doing a tech session with this company.
http://www.autologic-diagnos.com/
They seem to have computer systems that can do most of the things that the Star Diagnostic system can do at the dealer.
It does note that ESP/Traction System/BAS options are available and changeable.
If this works then we can plug it up before the track and tweak with certain aspects of it.
I will find out more and post what I find. If anybody has any info about this please let me know.
Prasith
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,445
Likes: 3
From: WOT somewhere in the Bay Area
1951 Caterpiller D6
Originally posted by Prasith32
He He,
Yes i am sure my driving habits are one of the main causes for my annual tire expenses.
So it seems that everybody agrees that ESP stinks. I feel it is slightly better with it turned off but still a nuisance. Has anyone tried to turn it off completely on the track? I would love to see how the car powers out of turns with it. Do the tires spin a lot does one spin and the other not? Has anybody that has tried this please comment.
I also came across an interesting company. My local BMW-CCA chapter is doing a tech session with this company.
http://www.autologic-diagnos.com/
They seem to have computer systems that can do most of the things that the Star Diagnostic system can do at the dealer.
It does note that ESP/Traction System/BAS options are available and changeable.
If this works then we can plug it up before the track and tweak with certain aspects of it.
I will find out more and post what I find. If anybody has any info about this please let me know.
Prasith
He He,
Yes i am sure my driving habits are one of the main causes for my annual tire expenses.
So it seems that everybody agrees that ESP stinks. I feel it is slightly better with it turned off but still a nuisance. Has anyone tried to turn it off completely on the track? I would love to see how the car powers out of turns with it. Do the tires spin a lot does one spin and the other not? Has anybody that has tried this please comment.
I also came across an interesting company. My local BMW-CCA chapter is doing a tech session with this company.
http://www.autologic-diagnos.com/
They seem to have computer systems that can do most of the things that the Star Diagnostic system can do at the dealer.
It does note that ESP/Traction System/BAS options are available and changeable.
If this works then we can plug it up before the track and tweak with certain aspects of it.
I will find out more and post what I find. If anybody has any info about this please let me know.
Prasith
Super Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 711
Likes: 1
Yes, that "oh ***** I am making a left hand turn out of business, I must remember to really feather the throttle or those close cars will get a lot closer" syndrome. We need a name for it. Maybe "LESP".
I was accelerating and car started LESPing.
I like the idea of this tuner mentioned above Hope we hear more about this! I'll pay for some improvement.
I was accelerating and car started LESPing.
I like the idea of this tuner mentioned above
Hope we hear more about this! I'll pay for some improvement.
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
From: Great White North (the one with the crappy dollar)
2002 c32
THANK GOD
... I thought I was the only one with this problem....
There is the saying "misery loves company" ...I say "let's get some resolution to this f...ng 'lawyer-designed' vs 'engineer-driven' issue"
There is the saying "misery loves company" ...I say "let's get some resolution to this f...ng 'lawyer-designed' vs 'engineer-driven' issue"
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,445
Likes: 3
From: WOT somewhere in the Bay Area
1951 Caterpiller D6
Originally posted by Zeppelin
Turning ESP off completely(thru DYNO MODE) is useless without a LSD. The one rear tire will just go up in smoke with part throttle. Been there done that.
Turning ESP off completely(thru DYNO MODE) is useless without a LSD. The one rear tire will just go up in smoke with part throttle. Been there done that.
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 371
Likes: 0
From: Boston/Hartford
Originally posted by Zeppelin
Turning ESP off completely(thru DYNO MODE) is useless without a LSD. The one rear tire will just go up in smoke with part throttle. Been there done that.
Turning ESP off completely(thru DYNO MODE) is useless without a LSD. The one rear tire will just go up in smoke with part throttle. Been there done that.
Zeppelin,
When and where did you try this? Does this happen only off the line in a drag strip setting? Did you try it at a track powering out of a sharp curve? I plan on trying this but am afraid to try it at the track. Maybe on an autoX but I know that I won't be able to put any power down out of those tight curves.
Vader,
Is that with esp off via the button or through the long process that puts the esp completely off (dyno mode).
Also I heard that dyno mode is no longer available in 03 and up or cars with command. I will try it since mine is an 03 and with command. Just need the weather to get warmer
Prasith
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,069
Likes: 0
From: So-Cal
W211 E55 AMG, ML63 AMG, Past 996GT3,ZCPM3,Brabus C32,ML 500
I turn my ESP off whenever I get in the car,ESP acts up when its turned off manually, but it's allot better than on..
with 19's and Audio in truck, It seems the right wheel spins more.
with 19's and Audio in truck, It seems the right wheel spins more.
