AMGSC

I took a year off from modding this car but will now finish it up this December. The challenge is and always has been to tune it for maximum boost (up to 20psi).

I have been agonizing over whether I should go with DynoComp/Renntech to reprogram the Kleemann ECU or go with Evosport and their AEM FIC piggy-back solution. The costs are about the same.

Any tuning experts out there that can give me some advice on this?

Anybody had any experience with Fuel Ignition Controller piggy-back units?

MBH motorsports

Just get it tuned. Don't run any piggy back crap.

AMGSC

But can Renntech tune it when the parameters are so outside the normal range? I can live with a minimum of 14psi and just run NIitrous if the SC starts generating too much heat.

btw...Do you think Rich will still honor the $2995 price on the LTs?

MBH motorsports

You mean will I, or Rich honor the $2995 price? Sure why not. We will get it tuned.

RLx02

problem solved

brad @ evosport

Boy, that is surprising that the Renntech dealer calls a piggy back "crap" - lol

Do you even know anything about FIC controllers or other stand-alone ECU's that are used as piggy-back's with modern German sedans?

I would expect more of you really, you seem to be more logical and pragmatic typically.

This really comes across as a total sales pitch.

For what it is worth, here are the things that a piggy-back controller can do that a standard tuner typically cannot

• full control over fuel and timing
• no ECU based torque limiting as you are fooling the computer
• hardware that is easily upgradeable for future modifications
• elimination of the need to work with a singular ECU tuner, you can use many different tuner proficient on the box you have

Is it the right thing for Robert? Dunno. But just summarily dismissing it as crap shows either that you are simply pitching what you have to sell or that you are very naive as it pertains to tuning.

We have had great success with tuning the ECU and we have had equally great success with Motec, Pectel, AEM, etc.

There is not ONE solution out there. There are pros and cons with either direction. Customers are better educated and serviced if actual information is disseminated rather then "off the cuff" comments that are not based in fact. We are vendors here have a greater responsibility to not fall into that trap. Even if it is something we don't make or sell, we should be open and honest about products as it serves the communities greater good.

Did you know that Heffner uses an AEM piggy back on his twin turbo Lambo's? (I think Underground also)

Did you know that Foose uses an AEM ECU on his Hemisphere ("Foose Coupe")?

Did you know that Horsepower Freaks uses an AEM "piggy-back" on their turbo e46 M3's?

I could go on and on with examples, but I think that the point is made.

Please feel free to contact me or ask any experienced 3rd party about the benefits of a properly installed and engineered piggy-back solutions.

Thanks
Brad

MBH motorsports

post miss read. I thought Robert was going to run any old piggy back, Didn't know Evo had got one figured out. BTW congrats on it!

brad @ evosport

Thanks for the clarification.

If you have someone that can tune a MBZ ecu for large boost and all the extra's that Robert wants - DO IT! And then pass his name to me. I have yet to find anyone in the world that can meet his criteria using a stock DME.

Also, comparing an ECU from a non-german car to a german car is worthless. Many OE's use ECU's that are very easy to program for the independent tuner, the Germans do not.

My main contention is just the complete slam on a product that you may not have all the information on.

Thanks
Brad

MBH motorsports

Yeah sometimes I dont read all of the thread. Rather just skimming it. Again I think it cool you guys have a system that is working for you.

Newzchspy

This thread piqued my interest? Are you running the old autorotor and have you had issues with running "rich" on the Kleemann tune like I have?? I am wondering if this "piggy-back" (of which I know lil or nothing about admittedly,) can help me with the 2006 C55 S7 with the autorotor and "stock" Kleemann pulley ? My car starts rich at 3000 RPM and just keeps going from there. I am runnning only 5-6 PSI and did not know that 20 was attainable on the autorotor??

Brad or Mike, help me out here to understand??

AMGSC

I'm glad you have a setup similar to mine. I've had the twin screw 2.0litre Autorotor in my car with about 20K miles on it.

I'm running on 6psi with a 70mm pulley which is slightly smaller than the standard 75mm pulley. The low boost even with a slightly smaller pulley could be due to all the other mods I have like bigger TB, Ported heads and SC inlet/outlets, and oversized valves and 9:1 CR. I also have a 65mm and 60mm pulley. I know the 65mm pulley will not slip with the 270degree wrap tensionar bracket that Vadim custom built but I took it off when the car started to hiccup due to too much boost.
I also have a 172mm ASP customized crank pulley that I want to combine with the 60 or 65mm pulley to get to about 18-21psi. If Evosport'S FIC solution can optimize the high boost which based on Brad's response I feel more comfortable about (after Wire-Harness replacement) then I know this is the direction I'm headed next month. I still want Hooley's Long tube headers though!

Oh yeah to answer your question. I am not running rich at all because I had Cory/Brad at Kleemann adjust the ECU for my particular setup with the smaller 70mm SC pulley.

The 2.0 literAutorotors reach max efficiency at around 20psi but starts to generate excessive heat beyond that. You can find some information on the Kenne Bell website. The Kenne Bell 2.4Litres can run 26-28psi without any problems but of course our 2.0 litre is smaller but the same rotor design but with a different housing.

Newzchspy

*** Which begs the question, could we just do the Kenne Bell thing without much issue such as fuel delivery etc?? *** I'm talking Bolt-on application??

I think that Mike's getting 7-8 lbs on his 05 C55 with Autorotor just through a smaller pulley. Each lb looks like 10-15 rwhp

AMGSC

A Kenne Bell reto-fit project is going to be very complicated, costly and time-consuming. A stand-alone ECU would disable all the other computerized MB functions but perhaps a piggy-back will allow us to preserve the OEM functions while allowing for overide on the engine management only.

The Kenne Bell units are not that expensive but the customized one-off hardware you need may be.

Newzchspy

Keep me posted on the piggy-back , I'd love to learn more since I know lil about it??

loungn14

You make a very good point Brad. When we were just at the tx mile I was talking to one of the guys from underground just on that, their piggy back for the twin lambo.

I know we had a nightmare of a time tuning the crossfire (mbz ecu) when we removed the supercharger and replaced it with a single high boost turbo. It was also not very fun doing it when we tuned a turbo 350 (awesome mod tho to go turbo on that n/a car) The mb ecu is not fun and is quite a puzzle not many have mastered.

Evosport knows their stuff on this one.....

TemjinX2

i believe evosport uses the AEM EMS which is a full stand alone unit. The AEM FIC is the piggy back. The AEM EMS is a great unit and lot of 800whp hondas and 1000whp supras uses it.

They offer a lot of features for that the mb ecu doesn't such as multiple map switching, launch control and boost control. It also makes it a lot easier to tune. Basically anyone familar with tuning a AEM EMS can tune it now instead only people familiar with MB coding.

Considering how heavy modified you are. I think you are past the limits of what the MB ecu can provide and your better off with the AEM EMS.

AMGSC

Now my next question is where can I find an experienced AEM programmer that's successfully tuned modified AMG's.

The guy Brad proposed was Steve who owns the dyno shop next door (Powertrain Dynamics) and he specializes in American Muscle cars like Ford, GM and Dodge.

TemjinX2

Any one with experience tuning a overhead cam engine on a AEM EMS can do i. Principally, there not real difference in you c55 v8 and a v8 you see on a mustang. There both over head cam engines. All they do is just add more advance on the timing and add more fuel to prevent detonation. Its not rocket science, its easy if you have a datelogger and wide band or dyno.

All of the ecu data tables are coded on the mb ecus and not open source like the domestic and japanese cars. Thats why MB tuners charge $1-2k for a tune versus a evo tuner who only charges $250 or they just tune it themselves since all the code is open source.

There's actually a ecu tuning diy guide on how to change the data table for tuning on the evolutionm. Basically if you can program excel, you can tune.

But from your posts and knowledge, you dont really seem like diy type. If evosport built your car, I would just go with there recommendation on who to tune it. You can probably check the muscle car forums and see if they have a good rep or not.

AMGSC

I was reminded by a good friend that my car may not need an AEM FIC and the ECU can be custom tuned for the following reasons.

1) I don't have any issues with inadequate fuel as I have a larger pump, injectors and the Kleemann FMU kit consisting of a boost-a-bump, MAF adjuster/voltage claimp.

2) The timing/ignitiion can easily be adjusted without the need for a piggy-back by an experienced MB tuner.

Now I just need to confirm all this with Kleemann and DynoComp tomorrow morning.

ImportLabSRT

Has anyone got an AEM EMS unit to work on a modern Benz platform?