PeterUbers

Well said

zibby43

I know I'm not the poster you were responding to but I'd like to offer a few thoughts.

First of all, I do 100% respect your opinion on the matter. Even though I respectfully disagree with some of your points, there is no right or wrong answer/position. Although I don't always agree with the content of your posts, I do enjoy reading them.

Second, it seems to me that only a very vocal minority have been upset by the new AMG Sport lineup.

Based off my extensive experience in the BMW community, the decision to offer "in-between" vehicles such as M Sport models and the M235i has helped the M brand grow exponentially. Many owners new to performance-oriented automobiles choose these "in-between" or "stepping stone" options before choosing "genuine" M cars.

They choose the in-between models for a variety of reasons. Two of the most common reasons are as follows: 1) They are much more affordable; 2) The cars don't require as much knowledge/driving skill as the full-blown M models.

The vast majority of these owners are not "posers" trying to pass off their cars as something they are not. They're just trying to enjoy more performance-oriented cars until they can make the jump to more expensive, more dynamic, "authentic" M/AMG/Quattro cars.

The M235i, for example, has been a grand slam/massive hit for BMW. It has sold well and it has been well-reviewed.

Consequently, the BMW M brand has been praised for diversifying and it has experienced growth by capturing new customers that may have been on the threshold of genuine M-car ownership.

I do not fault MB/AMG at all for finally catching up to the competition. At times, the execution of this strategy has been frustrating/confusing but once we all get beyond the growing pains, I think we will see that this was a good move by AMG.

The new W205 C63 and the new AMG GT have, thus far, been some of the most well-reviewed AMG cars ever. Clearly, the foray into AMG Sport vehicles has not compromised the genuine AMG cars.

Furthermore, the new C450 AMG Sport has also been universally praised. The AMG brand is getting a lot of positive feedback in the realm of automotive journalism.

The PL has helped me to realize that some AMG owners chose the brand because of the exclusivity it offered. Exclusive can be nice, but regardless of the AMG Sport launch, AMG was already growing rapidly. There were over 40,000+ W204 C63s made/sold. The W204 C63 is a great car but exclusive it is not. The Porsche 918 Spyder is an exclusive model (918 made).

But even Porsche, often lauded as one of the few true sports car manufacturers left, has expanded to include models like the Cayenne (a favorite of soccer moms everywhere) and the oft-criticized as ghastly Panamera (I personally like it).

These are competitive times in the performance car marketplace. MB/AMG haven't been perfect with the execution of the AMG Sport cars but overall, this seems like a no-brainer decision that will pay dividends for the brand in the long-term. More money means more R&D for the genuine AMG cars and more AMG enthusiasts means a bigger, better, and more passionate community.

Cavu

It is just you JRCART. Many others would rather drive the better car which is a C450 and they're not trying to pose as an AMG. It's MBZ-AMG fault for this product naming decision, but the car itself is a great idea.

PeterUbers

Well put

st3v

Take it easy, man.

Don't worry, your beloved AMG cars are still a notch above.

To some people, almost 400hp with the sport tuning/suspension/etc is enough for the city roads and daily driving. The C300 is not a sport tuned vehicle. Usually, someone who wants a sportier ride would get the better engine. That's where the C450 steps in. The C63 isn't an option to many people due to the large price difference.

dreamerak

Well stated, it is the high volume AMG models that will provide cash for the development of lower volume hard core AMG cars. There is no free ride. Porsche found this out the hard way in the early 90's with the 964 series of the 911, they catered mostly to the hard core Porsche enthusiast, and had there butts kicked financially. Thus the Cayenne and Panamera.

Strafe1

Thanks for the comments!
Maybe I spend more time defending mine and others opinions rather than fully stating where I personally stand on the topic.
I like the development of the sport line. I like having more choices when it comes to power, comfort, every day usability, all- wheel drive, etc. I certainly hope I have not come out against the C450 or any of the future vehicles in the sport line. I certainly want Mercedes to succeed, but I won't lie, exclusivity has its advantages too, and I relate to those more.
I don't like MB using the AMG tag on those cars though. Keep it Sport.
And I don't like newbies berating long time members they don''t know and take out of context.

Strafe1

NEWBIE....same message for you as I posted to MrChameleon.
A highly judgmental post like this about a very long term member's quote taken out of contest is not a good start for you.

kuba.95

Just going to give my full on opinion here. The CLA 45, A45, and GLA 45 were created to introduce younger people, and those which normally couldn't afford a AMG, into the AMG brand. These 3 AMG's are actually real full on AMG's with hand built engines, and tons of other AMG parts. Therefore the C450 is selling out the AMG name for nothing. They could have called it a C450 Sport. They also should have kept things such as the performance seats out of the C450. This way everyone would be happy. The AMG brand wouldn't have sold out so a ton of it's customers would still be happy. AMG would still sell a ton of cars and get tons of cash due to the CLA 45, A45, and GLA 45, and MB would have a competitor against the S4, and Bmw 335 (Soon to be 340I). So basically all in all everyone would be happy.

Strafe1

We see you are new, so you get a pass. JR knows everything there is to know about MB and AMG. You probably can't teach him anything in this arena. The comment you quote is taken out of context....cudos to you for your measured response though!

st3v

BMW is very profitable now, and by doing this they are bringing more enthusiasts to the brand. I was in BMWs for 8 years and I'm looking into crossing over to MB now due to the C450 (But I may wait for the coupe version). I can afford a C63, however I find it pointless to drop that much money into a car I would never track. A C300 is not sufficient, nor a C400. I want a well tuned mid range. BMW has this with the 335i. You can get a sport suspension with it that provides great driving dynamics. Of course it is not as good as the M3, but it provides more than enough power and handling. I think Mercedes is smart in doing this.

kuba.95

BI agree that the C450 is needed to compete with BMW, and I see the point of the C450. Although like I said. If MB called it a C450, didn't add the AMG performance seats to it as a option, and didn't falsely advertise it as a "real AMG" (Doesn't have a hand built engine, and real AMG's are now called Mercedes-AMG's not Mercedes-Benz AMG's or AMG sports or whatever it's called now) then Mb would still gain the same profits from it, and everyone would be satisfied.

P.S the AMG sport models are under Mercedes-Benz not Mercedes-AMG so technically their sales don't count for AMG sales.

st3v

I understand, people with BMW M models also got pissed when they came out with M Sports. But I bought an M Sport model for the better "looks" and the sport suspension upgrades. I guess I'm a poseur? There is no performance difference with the BMW M Sport though. In the case of the "AMG Sport" C class, there is a performance difference, and it was tuned for more power and handling by AMG. I think that in itself justifies the AMG Sport moniker.

I wouldn't mind MB making more money as BMW. I actually always liked Mercedes more than BMW in the past. But the BMW gave me the most power/handling/looks combo I needed. Now it looks like Merc is coming back, and I hope they make more money with these models, to make the full AMGs even more nicer.

I still may get the Mercedes-AMG C63S if the coupe looks really good...

kuba.95

I'd say that it actually only makes it deserve the "Sport" moniker with ads saying " the engine was tuned by AMG" etc. Not actually saying b.s such as it's a "real AMG" or any other other false advertising they've been spewing out.

As for when it comes to the performance of the C450. So far I'm not impressed. From the looks of it it'll only be able to compete with the current gen competition, and even at that it might lose in some categories. So with the next gen competition coming out soon (new BMW 340I, and the new Audi S4/S5) I honestly expected a bit more from the C450. Plus when the C63S has better fuel economy... Well that's kind of sad lol.

As for the C63S coupe. It might look similair to the S coupe which is a stunner. So it might turn out to be a stunner as well, and I wish I could wait for the coupe, but in the situation that I'm currently in I sadly cant.

zibby43

Thanks gentlemen. And dreamerak, I agree completely re: your points about Porsche.

You are very welcome sir. And all fair points that I can agree on there.

The CLA45/A45/GLA45 were introduced to compete with entry-level performance cars like the BMW 1M (and forthcoming M2).

As far as the performance seats being fitted in the C450 AMG Sport, this is certainly nothing new (at all).

The W204 C250 Coupe has the same seats/interior as the U.S.-spec Black Series. And I'm sure that we can agree that the Black Series is much more exclusive than the standard C63. Despite that, the Black Series has the same interior as an entry-level Mercedes.

The W204 C250 Coupe also has the same interior as the standard C63 coupe. So we have three very different cars (C250, C63 Black, C63 coupe) all with the same seats/interior. Yet, no one cried foul.

W204 C250 Coupe:



W204 C63 Black Series (U.S.-specification):



Furthermore, there are a multitude of differences that distinguish the C450 from the genuine W205 C63 models.

The AMG Sport model gets the performance seats but only in one color (Black MB-Tex). The W205 C63 and C63 S get a plethora of unique leather and trim combinations. They also get a unique set of 3 steering wheels (all are thicker and have a 12 o'clock indicator band). The AMG Sport model gets a C400 steering wheel with a flat bottom and no indicator band.

The W205 C63s also get some unique controls and 100% unique gauges.

The C63s get wider front and rear tracks, unique front/rear axle assemblies, unique differentials, unique braking systems, unique exhaust systems, etc.

kuba.95

Yes the CLA 45, A45 and the GLA 45 were designed to do that, but also like I said. They were meant to introduce a younger generation to the AMG brand along with those who couldn't afford a AMG. This would in turn promote people to purchase even better AMG's in the future when they were more financially stable etc.

Also ya I know that they did this before, but in my opinion they still shouldn't have done it. In my opinion they could have at most given the C450 the normal C63 seats, but not the optional Performance seats.

Yes I know that their are some/quite a bit of differences between the C450, and the C63 especially when you also consider the Ed1 which I'm purchasing but I (along with others based off the PL convos and some on here) still think MB went to far with what they did with the C450 overall.

Tjdehya

The W204 did not get performance seats. When the performance seats were announced for the for the W205 AMG many belived/assumed that the seats would be AMG exclusive. This belief/assumption was further reinforced when the W205 C300/400 was released without the availability for the performance seats as an option. Also the CLA/GLA/A45 also have "AMG exclusive" seating options.

This is the reason/justification for the outcry.
IMO from the way this vehicle is optioned... It may as well be called an AMG. With all the AMG parts, all the AMG badges, and the (W205 AMG exclusive) AMG 4matic (which the C63 doesn't even get)

Mercedes-AMG C45 would have worked just fine IMO.

kuba.95

Another thing that MB could have done is basically they could have kept the C400 but made two performance packages available to it just like BMW did for the 335, and the 435.

zibby43

I agree that the 45-series AMG cars were aimed toward a younger demographic. However, the CLA45, once you throw on the options that make the car desirable, is still quite a bit more expensive than the C450.

Regarding the seats: The "normal" W205 C63 seats are the exact same seats used by the C300/C400.

The standard W204 cars (both sedan and coupe) had their own seats.

When the W204 "Sport" coupe came out, they gave it the same seats as the C63 coupe/C63 Black Series. Thus, MB gave a standard car seats that were previously exclusive to the C63. So to an extent, history is repeating itself but there was no outcry when virtually the same scenario happened before.

Since both the W204 C63 sedan, coupe, and Black Series all debuted with their own unique seats, I doubt many expected the C250 to land them. See my point? Although I will admit, the W204 C63's seats with integrated headrests did not appear in any standard cars.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the rest because after comparing the W205 C300/C400 to the C450 and new C63, it's evident from the specification sheets, etc. that the C450 shares the overwhelming majority of its parts with the standard cars.

Meanwhile, the new C63 shares almost nothing in common (from a performance/engineering perspective) with either the C450 or C300/C400.

Yeah the C63 has the same doors. And yep, a C450 owner can get the performance seats too (the same performance seats that are available in the GLA45/CLA45/A45/AMG GT and GT S/C63 and C63 S).

One of the defining characteristics of a genuine AMG vehicle is the fact that it gets a hand-built motor. The C450 does not get that. Nor does it get the C63's differential options, brakes, front/rear axles, suspension, steering programming, steering wheel options, AMG exhaust, etc. (to name a few).

Hell, the F30 M Sport 335i gets the same brake calipers found on the F8X M3. MB hasn't taken things that far.

So the whole C45 makes no sense to me (no offense).

zibby43

Both the F30 3-Series and F32 4-Series have M Sport models. On top of that, you can deck them out with a full line of M Performance parts, including the brake calipers from the F80 M3/F82 M4.

If anything, BMW has gone further with the concept of M Sport vehicles (especially with models like the M235i).

I'm getting pretty tired of this discussion though. I don't care if Benz comes out with a "Pink Power Ranger E400 Blutec." All I care about are the genuine AMG vehicles that appeal to me. So long as they keep cleaning up in reviews (which they are) and so long as they're fun to drive, I'll buy them.

kuba.95

Ya it can get quite expensive. A fully loaded one can come out at 70k without taxes etc here in Canada. Although a fully loaded C400 comes out at 69k without taxes. So I can see a fully loaded C450 being about 72-73k which is more expensive then the CLA 45.

Tjdehya

Key Highlights

• AMG tuned 3.0-liter V-6 biturbo engine
• 362 horsepower, 384 lb-ft of torque
• 0-60 mph time of 4.9 seconds
• AMG DYNAMIC SELECT variable suspension, powertrain and steering modes
• 7G-TRONIC PLUS automatic transmission with variable modes
• AMG Adaptive sport suspension
• AMG Performance 4MATIC all-wheel-drive with rear-biased torque split
• AMG engineered exhaust system
• Exclusive AMG exterior and interior styling
• Additional AMG-exclusive options
• Advanced safety technologies, including COLLISION PREVENTION ASSIST PLUS, ATTENTION ASSIST, ADAPTIVE BRAKE

Like I said.

zibby43

Thanks for highlighting and bolding but I can read. Also, I'm not trying to be rude but the things you have highlighted and bolded are not the types of components/features I was referring to. Just because the C450 has adjustable damping (like the AMG), does not mean that the actual suspension components are the same. The actual components and nuts and bolts of these cars are substantially different.

And when it says "AMG suspension," it means an AMG-tuned version of the standard C400 suspension. NOT the C63's suspension.

Do you understand that?

The C63 has the MCT transmission. Not the 7G-tronic.

"The C450's suspension is merely a derivative of that on the C63 AMG."

"Underpinning the new C63 is a reworked version of the standard C-class suspension that has been tuned extensively at the Nürburgring. It features a 31mm wider front track at 1609mm, new wheel bearings offering greater negative camber, firmer springs and dampers, larger diameter anti-roll bars, altered bushing and a 25mm reduction in ride height."

"The electro-mechanical steering, which receives its own unique 14.1:1 ratio, is wonderfully weighted and delivers exceptional response, providing the C63 S with real precision and permitting the driver to delve deeply into the natural agility of the chassis at all times."

- Autocar

"The C63's front and rear axles carry nothing over from the standard cars."

- Chris Harris

So, like I said.

kuba.95

^

trueblue_ips

Zibby, I don't know what you've been reading but the c450 has practically all of the c63 parts, except the engine of course. It has very little in common with the c400. Compared to the c400, the transmission is different, the steering is different, the suspension is different, the styling is different.
The c450 has all of the c63 except the engine. The c450 has none of the c400 except the engine. It's a c63 with a c400 engine.

On another point, why didn't they call it the c45? I thought AMG cars were denoted by two numbers.