Confused about the head bolt issue
05-16-2012, 06:06 PM
#26
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,955
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
7 Posts
2017 Mini Cooper S Clubman ALL4 - British Racing Green
This is not an uncommon issue. Unless it is an active safety issue they will most likely never issue a recall, rather fix them one off (and hopefully outside of the warranty if it has expired)
05-16-2012, 06:07 PM
#27
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
My guess is that MB has already tested many of the old style head bolts that have been pulled from engine assembly as well as normal parts stock. They know what to expect...we don't. The situation reminds me of the infamous Ford Pinto case - and no, I'm not comparing deaths to engine replacements or drawing parallels between our concerns and those of the Ford victims - that I case-studied in B school. These are very different cases. Nonetheless, apparently the Pinto case revealed to the public-at-large a corporate decision-making process heretofore unknown.
Abstract
The cases involving the explosion of Ford Pinto's due to a defective fuel system design led to the debate of many issues, most centering around the use by Ford of a cost-benefit analysis and the ethics surrounding its decision not to upgrade the fuel system based on this analysis.
ANALYSIS
Although Ford had access to a new design which would decrease the possibility of the Ford Pinto from exploding, the company chose not to implement the design, which would have cost $11 per car, even though it had done an analysis showing that the new design would result in 180 less deaths. The company defended itself on the grounds that it used the accepted risk/benefit analysis to determine if the monetary costs of making the change were greater than the societal benefit. Based on the numbers Ford used, the cost would have been $137 million versus the $49.5 million price tag put on the deaths, injuries, and car damages, and thus Ford felt justified not implementing the design change. This risk/benefit analysis was created out of the development of product liability, culminating at Judge Learned Hand's BPL formula, where if the expected harm exceeded the cost to take the precaution, then the company must take the precaution, whereas if the cost was liable, then it did not have to. However, the BPL formula focuses on a specific accident, while the risk/benefit analysis requires an examination of the costs, risks, and benefits through use of the product as a whole. Based on this analysis, Ford legally chose not to make the design changes which would have made the Pinto safer. However, just because it was legal doesn't necessarily mean that it was ethical. It is difficult to understand how a price can be put on saving a human life.
Abstract
The cases involving the explosion of Ford Pinto's due to a defective fuel system design led to the debate of many issues, most centering around the use by Ford of a cost-benefit analysis and the ethics surrounding its decision not to upgrade the fuel system based on this analysis.
ANALYSIS
Although Ford had access to a new design which would decrease the possibility of the Ford Pinto from exploding, the company chose not to implement the design, which would have cost $11 per car, even though it had done an analysis showing that the new design would result in 180 less deaths. The company defended itself on the grounds that it used the accepted risk/benefit analysis to determine if the monetary costs of making the change were greater than the societal benefit. Based on the numbers Ford used, the cost would have been $137 million versus the $49.5 million price tag put on the deaths, injuries, and car damages, and thus Ford felt justified not implementing the design change. This risk/benefit analysis was created out of the development of product liability, culminating at Judge Learned Hand's BPL formula, where if the expected harm exceeded the cost to take the precaution, then the company must take the precaution, whereas if the cost was liable, then it did not have to. However, the BPL formula focuses on a specific accident, while the risk/benefit analysis requires an examination of the costs, risks, and benefits through use of the product as a whole. Based on this analysis, Ford legally chose not to make the design changes which would have made the Pinto safer. However, just because it was legal doesn't necessarily mean that it was ethical. It is difficult to understand how a price can be put on saving a human life.
05-16-2012, 06:11 PM
#28
I am most certain they have their legal department looking into what the heck they should do...believe me, its a HUGE decision that will be VERY costly for them (MB). If they don't do something about it now there could be a very extensive class action suit once engines fail out of warranty that would be even more expensive than replacing these bolts...
05-16-2012, 06:48 PM
#29
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Relocated
Posts: 4,418
Received 381 Likes
on
237 Posts
2010 Irridium Silver MB C63 AMG Sedan
Yes replacement is a great idea....but can you just imagine the INSANITY of changing hundreds of M156 head bolts ( there is like 10 isn't there?) and the hours and the man power???? You have to completely remove the heads and the cylinder covers not to mention the other parts (air filters, belts, etc, etc, etc...) to access this...It would be an absolute NIGHTMARE....
05-16-2012, 07:15 PM
#30
Yes replacement is a great idea....but can you just imagine the INSANITY of changing hundreds of M156 head bolts ( there is like 10 isn't there?) and the hours and the man power???? You have to completely remove the heads and the cylinder covers not to mention the other parts (air filters, belts, etc, etc, etc...) to access this...It would be an absolute NIGHTMARE....
05-16-2012, 07:26 PM
#31
Super Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 572
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
2015 C63S E1 (sold 2012 C63 AMG Sedan (Premium & APX)) & 09 C300 Sport 4Matic
MB has to consider damage to the prestigious AMG brand if this issue starts to show up very broadly. Probably all around the same time as the engines reach the prime age for the bolts to break. The more random the issues the better for MB.
A wide press coverage of a broad based problem would cost MB/AMG a lot in reputation and undo a lot of the marketing efforts for the brand.
The best way out is for MB to cover the repair even after warantee expiration, otherwise the lawyers will uncover a class action opportunity.
A wide press coverage of a broad based problem would cost MB/AMG a lot in reputation and undo a lot of the marketing efforts for the brand.
The best way out is for MB to cover the repair even after warantee expiration, otherwise the lawyers will uncover a class action opportunity.
05-16-2012, 11:00 PM
#32
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
Posts: 4,026
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
5 Posts
Vivid Racing '09 C63 AMG
MB has to consider damage to the prestigious AMG brand if this issue starts to show up very broadly. Probably all around the same time as the engines reach the prime age for the bolts to break. The more random the issues the better for MB.
A wide press coverage of a broad based problem would cost MB/AMG a lot in reputation and undo a lot of the marketing efforts for the brand.
The best way out is for MB to cover the repair even after warantee expiration, otherwise the lawyers will uncover a class action opportunity.
A wide press coverage of a broad based problem would cost MB/AMG a lot in reputation and undo a lot of the marketing efforts for the brand.
The best way out is for MB to cover the repair even after warantee expiration, otherwise the lawyers will uncover a class action opportunity.
05-16-2012, 11:04 PM
#33
I don't remember if this has been covered yet, but are all the M156s affected or only the C63? I don't know why it'd be that much different but I haven't heard any other platforms having issues.
05-16-2012, 11:18 PM
#34
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
Hopefully Merc63 will weigh in here. He's another member who's been pushing this issue along but hasn't posted on it for a while. He mentioned at one time he had seen cases in other AMG-model sub-forums here...I haven't looked for them at all. But to answer your question, all platforms most likely are suspect. Many more C's are sold than other AMG models so it stands to reason they are much more visible.
05-16-2012, 11:39 PM
#35
It'd be interesting to find out. The thing is, the C is a detuned engine essentially so you'd think it wouldn't have the problems unless there's a difference between the C engines and others.
05-17-2012, 12:53 AM
#37
Of the cases I've seen reported to date the 40k-50k miles range seems to be the "hot spot."
Hopefully Merc63 will weigh in here. He's another member who's been pushing this issue along but hasn't posted on it for a while. He mentioned at one time he had seen cases in other AMG-model sub-forums here...I haven't looked for them at all. But to answer your question, all platforms most likely are suspect. Many more C's are sold than other AMG models so it stands to reason they are much more visible.
Hopefully Merc63 will weigh in here. He's another member who's been pushing this issue along but hasn't posted on it for a while. He mentioned at one time he had seen cases in other AMG-model sub-forums here...I haven't looked for them at all. But to answer your question, all platforms most likely are suspect. Many more C's are sold than other AMG models so it stands to reason they are much more visible.
It seems like it happens around 40+k miles. Search the other forums you will find some good reads.. Enough to give you a bit of a worry if you are out of warranty...
05-17-2012, 01:12 AM
#38
Super Member
If my motor blew due to the failure of one of those big *** bolts I would not sit back and take it. What's a '63 crate motor cost? I'd spend at least that much in legal fees and I would not go down quietly. I own 3 benzes each less than 3 years old too and they'd never see me buy another one. Everyone I know and everyone I ever ran into would hear my story.
When BMW had issues with the s54 they gave out 7 yr 100k mile warranties. I expect something like this from MB.
When BMW had issues with the s54 they gave out 7 yr 100k mile warranties. I expect something like this from MB.
05-17-2012, 02:07 AM
#40
Member
It will be interesting to see how my situation ends up getting handled. 51k KMs, 6 months out of warranty. Serviced on the button by the MB dealers including a service about 6 weeks and 2.5 K KMs before failure. I have had some sort of what seems like a catastrophic engine failure on one side. No compression and engine coolant in a number of cylinders. On my "good" side it already had one heat bolt failed so I would say I was driving a time bomb anyway. Hopefully some good will by MB. It may not apply directly to other situations and countries but we may get a guide on how MB in general will support these types of premature/unusual failures when out of warranty
05-17-2012, 02:48 AM
#41
Super Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 832
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
(a)'12 C63 P/P, LSD, 19" m/spoke,comfort pack. (b)Astra SRI.
It will be interesting to see how my situation ends up getting handled. 51k KMs, 6 months out of warranty. Serviced on the button by the MB dealers including a service about 6 weeks and 2.5 K KMs before failure. I have had some sort of what seems like a catastrophic engine failure on one side. No compression and engine coolant in a number of cylinders. On my "good" side it already had one heat bolt failed so I would say I was driving a time bomb anyway. Hopefully some good will by MB. It may not apply directly to other situations and countries but we may get a guide on how MB in general will support these types of premature/unusual failures when out of warranty
Cheers, Pickles.
05-17-2012, 03:04 AM
#42
MBWorld Fanatic!
Guys. A sticky has been set up to handle all these comments. Let's use it so the topic doesn't vanish way down on the board.
05-17-2012, 03:13 AM
#43
MBWorld Fanatic!
My guess is that MB has already tested many of the old style head bolts that have been pulled from engine assembly as well as normal parts stock. They know what to expect...we don't. The situation reminds me of the infamous Ford Pinto case - and no, I'm not comparing deaths to engine replacements or drawing parallels between our concerns and those of the Ford victims - that I case-studied in B school. These are very different cases. Nonetheless, apparently the Pinto case revealed to the public-at-large a corporate decision-making process heretofore unknown.
Abstract
The cases involving the explosion of Ford Pinto's due to a defective fuel system design led to the debate of many issues, most centering around the use by Ford of a cost-benefit analysis and the ethics surrounding its decision not to upgrade the fuel system based on this analysis.
ANALYSIS
Although Ford had access to a new design which would decrease the possibility of the Ford Pinto from exploding, the company chose not to implement the design, which would have cost $11 per car, even though it had done an analysis showing that the new design would result in 180 less deaths. The company defended itself on the grounds that it used the accepted risk/benefit analysis to determine if the monetary costs of making the change were greater than the societal benefit. Based on the numbers Ford used, the cost would have been $137 million versus the $49.5 million price tag put on the deaths, injuries, and car damages, and thus Ford felt justified not implementing the design change. This risk/benefit analysis was created out of the development of product liability, culminating at Judge Learned Hand's BPL formula, where if the expected harm exceeded the cost to take the precaution, then the company must take the precaution, whereas if the cost was liable, then it did not have to. However, the BPL formula focuses on a specific accident, while the risk/benefit analysis requires an examination of the costs, risks, and benefits through use of the product as a whole. Based on this analysis, Ford legally chose not to make the design changes which would have made the Pinto safer. However, just because it was legal doesn't necessarily mean that it was ethical. It is difficult to understand how a price can be put on saving a human life.
Abstract
The cases involving the explosion of Ford Pinto's due to a defective fuel system design led to the debate of many issues, most centering around the use by Ford of a cost-benefit analysis and the ethics surrounding its decision not to upgrade the fuel system based on this analysis.
ANALYSIS
Although Ford had access to a new design which would decrease the possibility of the Ford Pinto from exploding, the company chose not to implement the design, which would have cost $11 per car, even though it had done an analysis showing that the new design would result in 180 less deaths. The company defended itself on the grounds that it used the accepted risk/benefit analysis to determine if the monetary costs of making the change were greater than the societal benefit. Based on the numbers Ford used, the cost would have been $137 million versus the $49.5 million price tag put on the deaths, injuries, and car damages, and thus Ford felt justified not implementing the design change. This risk/benefit analysis was created out of the development of product liability, culminating at Judge Learned Hand's BPL formula, where if the expected harm exceeded the cost to take the precaution, then the company must take the precaution, whereas if the cost was liable, then it did not have to. However, the BPL formula focuses on a specific accident, while the risk/benefit analysis requires an examination of the costs, risks, and benefits through use of the product as a whole. Based on this analysis, Ford legally chose not to make the design changes which would have made the Pinto safer. However, just because it was legal doesn't necessarily mean that it was ethical. It is difficult to understand how a price can be put on saving a human life.
05-17-2012, 08:10 PM
#45
Member
05-17-2012, 08:18 PM
#46
Super Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 832
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
(a)'12 C63 P/P, LSD, 19" m/spoke,comfort pack. (b)Astra SRI.
I'm VERY interested to follow your story.....as I guess we all are....but your "story" is a bit closer to home for me!
Please keep us posted &... Good Luck, Pickles.
06-19-2012, 07:36 AM
#48
Please keep us updated I am an 09 C63 owner with 40,000km's on the clock and have reached warranty maturity. I did however extend my Mercedes Road Care Assistance whatever that is?
Hope I don't have to jump in the ring with MB Australia on an engine problem....Cheers
James
06-19-2012, 11:02 AM
#49
MBWorld Fanatic!
so unless i get a low coolant/check coolant light... merc won't bother checking anything... and if i do have a dealer look into it and they fine "nothing"... i'll still have to pay for the diagnosis...
is this correct? because there is not an official bulletin to look at this possible problem
is this correct? because there is not an official bulletin to look at this possible problem
