whoover

Don't forget that AMG didn't go from the M156 to TT 4.0 because they thought it would perform better. They were forced to shrink displacement by European consumption and carbon laws. It wasn't "where can we go next for absolute performance?" It was "what can you do with four liters?"

Ingenieur

M3/4 3.0L 425 hp 406 lb.-ft

33% more displacement
18% more HP >75 hp
18% more torque >70 lb ft

Than the new M3/4
What is the problem?

BHimself

If this is anything like a 911(the car AMG says its going after), it wouldn't be inconceivable to think this is just the "base" Carrera variant. I'll be curious what it's performance pack/Turbo/GT2 fighter variant could be tuned up to.

As far as the parallels to the C63 side, its my guess they will drop a couple psi, find something around that 470-480 mark for the base config and that combined with the 205 being a lighter car & perhaps better transmission will be what they're aiming for. At that point, it'd all be software driven so I would expect it to be easy changes for them/Mb Marketing.

It doesn't sound like the 205 chassis will be that dramatic of a change/improvement from the 204 chassis as it was going from the w203 to w204, but the 204 is/was already a dang good car, it's now down to the little things.
(Like actively cooled seats for those of us in places that are too darn hot)

Regardless, AMG's don't get slower. Can't wait to see how it all comes together!

whoover

They're calling it 510 hp. The kW spec is probably conservative. 85/425 is 20%. Not much better. But max hp is at 6,250 rpm and redline is 7,200.

BMW max output is at 7,500 and redline is 7,800. The AMG prime directive is low-end torque. And it's not clear that the BMW engine would provide the AMG experience.

But AMG needs to keep at it, for sure.

edwardsflight33

It will definitely be a performance and luxury upgrade. If the base comes in around 480ish, that will keep those who buy the car just for the numbers happy. The "S" model will probably be over 500. Tuners will take it even higher. Still, it won't sound as nice as the 6.2L.

My last 2 cars have had Heads-Up Displays and I truly miss that feature. I believe the w205 is going to have it. Add the ventilated seats to the mix and it will be a nicer place to be than the w204.

When it comes time to replace the 507, I'm definitely planning on getting the next C 63, or the AMG GT if I win the lottery. Not planning on winning the lottery though (I don't even play).

zibby43

Here's some more detailed information:

"Like the 6.2 that came before (and is still in the C63 AMG), the 4.0L M178 will make at least 510 horsepower and 479 pound feet of torque. Those numbers are almost exactly the same as the 6.2 in the Edition 507 C63. The displacement shouldn't really come as a shock, either. Audi uses a 4.0 V8 in a number of high performance models like the S8 and RS7, getting as much as 560 horsepower out of the mill. Look for AMG to change that power output depending on the application."

http://jalopnik.com/this-is-amgs-510...ium=socialflow

whoover

I can't believe the first version of this engine will be identical in both the AMT GT and C63 replacement. I would be surprised if the C got the dry-sump version. I'd be amazed if it got the identical tune.

jrcart

Gotta love bench racing.....I have a lot of inside information on the new AMG GT. First off the M177 will be the 4.0L in the C class and the M178 shown in the video above will only be available in the AMG GT. AMG contacted me a little over a month ago and asked if I was interested in getting one of the first GT's, I said for sure. I am not at liberty to share much information, however some of you guys are going to be suprised when you see the laps times for the GT, I am told it is as quick around most tracks as a stock SLS BS. The GT is going to be very light weight. This car is aimed directly at Porsche and once you guys see the final figures on this car and how it stacks up on paper next to a 997 you will all be changing your tune.

My only wish is that they would offer it in 4-Matic AWD but it is not available, at least not for the first couple years.

jrcart

It's not, M177 will be in the C, it is not a dry sump. M178 is for the AMG GT which is dry sumpred, coated cylinders and lighter pistons and rods. C will be mated to an MCT while the GT gets a DCT.

zibby43

Absolutely agreed. Of course the engines won't be identical. Nor will they have the same tunes. There will be different parts and components.

But this has given us a great preview of what the M177 will be like. Much will be shared in terms of overall design architecture and displacement. Just like the M156 and M159.

AMG isn't going to be engineering two entirely distinct and separate motors (that both happen to be 4.0L biturbo V8 power plants) for the GT and W205.

ab0bab0i

I'm guessing C63 will get a detuned motor with ~460-480hp.

JumpinJim

Why not? Every other manufacturer has done it. Even AMG with the M156/159. BMW uses a 4.4 tt in the 550 and the M5. Same base engine, yet they're quite a bit different in performance and ability, far more than just a tune thanks to different internals etc. Same with the new M3, it shares the same base engine as the 335, yet quite different. Audi is the same with the S7 and RS7, same base 4.0 tt engine yet one has bigger turbos, different intake, etc etc. If AMGs new 4.0 tt was going to be the same in the GT and 205 it wouldn't have two different model designations. There's going to be a bigger difference than just a tune between the two. Expect hardware differences like smaller turbos, smaller intercooler, internals, etc.

zibby43

In essence, you just repeated exactly what I said above.

Let me break it down - substantially similar engines with same architecture and displacement - different internals for engines with different designations/power outputs/tunes.

The W205 will have the M177, the GT the M178. Both 4.0L biturbo V8s. GT will have dry-sump lubrication and higher power output. Future differences are yet to be determined.

Ingenieur

The m156 is a great engine but not necessarily great engineering
It is a large lump with relatively high comp ratio

The new engine
Is 35% smaller
Has 7% lower compression
Almost a 40% mechanical disadvantage in the torque equation
Yet it makes more power/torque and uses less fuel hence lower emissions
THAT is engineering
Time moves on
It's a program I'm on board with (like we have a choice)

This is a good thing not a 'conspiracy' or step backwards

rory breaker

So....faster, lighter, better mpg...

What are we complaining about again going from 6.2 to 4.0?

estrellajon

I guess sound?

Ingenieur

Only numbers

Complain
The displacement is smaller and has different torque delivery characteristics


No complain
the timing numbers get smaller (et, 0-60, etc)
We don't focus on those lol

zibby43

Good question.

rory breaker

Right, completely understand power curves however it's premature to speculate on how it feels...bench racing per above.

Furthermore, delivery means less to me than the actual performance figures. Fables of turbo lag are of no concern to me, I know better.

So yes, lighter, faster, better mpg...sounds awful

Ingenieur

And to top it off
No one's even smelled one yet, let alone drive one!!!

Ingenieur

I wasn't saying worse, only different...or maybe not
Wide torque band, very flat
Which means linear power delivery...proportional to rpm,....smooth
A really nice engine to drive, elastic, flexible
LIKE A LARGE DISPLACEMENT V8

glennhl

Pretty interesting turbo packaging. Probably very efficient because of the short exhaust and intake routing. But what worries me is the underhood temps, could get pretty darn high unless they have some excellent insulation around the turbine housings and exhaust pipes.

RL1

yeah that is a big loss for me

RL

Mike3

cant believe there are people on this forum who are not worried about sound.

JumpinJim

I think it's pretty safe to say those big front intercoolers won't make it into the C. The GT has a really long nose to fit those into, but the C is not as gifted in that department.