iShootYou

I would like to know how people are accessing the ecu to tune as well

Properstyle

It honestly wont if more don't come in the market, alot of the attitudes of you are not at this shop you don't know. It henders growth, the tools used to adjust parameters are quite different but are there.

On BMWs and BENZ the whole file must be adjusted. I.e. Down loaded from the ecu and all maps touched. this is super time consuming, while getting my m3 tuned bt TTFS tech I was there for 6 hours as he made adjustments. Doing a run on the dyno then down loading the file and making the changes based on dyno reading etc. So it really doesn't surprise,e that there aren't more doing it.

vs when I have my z tuned I plug my laptop ina dn the tuner makes adjustments on the fly while the car is running.

Merc63

You can't tune. That's the whole problem and why you don't see guys running e85 and trying different things. You have to get a canned tune or find someone to custom tune that is local.

Properstyle

He is not talking about THE OWNER, he was asking how shops are going about tuning the car.

The answer to his question is by downloading the ecu map and having to manully make changes to the map on another computer and then reload it back to the ecu. That is NOT why you dont' see people running e85. Guys running e85 aren't tunning the car thme selves unless they have been taught by someone else to do so and have bought the softward license. We are all going to a local tunner to have out cars adjusted.

Some shops are putting the ecu on a bench to make the changes others are using hand helds to pull the files off the ecu and load them to a laptop.

iShootYou

Yes you can get a tune on the car, what your saying does not make sense. A eurocharged v5 tune is a tune but it's not a personalized tune for you car so is any other one you get for your car.

iShootYou

Exactly thanks for explaining that

Merc63

Holy Christ read what I said. Yes v5 is a canned tune.

This is just never ending.

iShootYou

How do u think they make that tune? They pull the ecu on a car make the tune and sell it. They are fully capable of making the tune personalized for your car if they have your car

layzie12g

My buddy is working on getting is software up and running for Benz. His Dyno Dynamics is almost ready also for you Seattle area people. He has been doing BMW stuff for years. I'm not sure if its the program or the interface that is expensive, but I want to say it was well over $5,000. Then teaching yourself to use it is the time consuming part.

Someone could come out and tell us the program and the interface to use, but none of the tuners will because its how they make their money. That will change soon. With how many people are becoming active with these cars it is just a matter of time.

http://ecmlink.com/

This tuning software is an Eprom chip for DSMs and Evos running a DSM Ecu. This is hands down the best software I have ever used. Its amazing what you can do with it. It is about as user friendly as this kind of software can be. Anyone care to share exactly what the tuners do with their tunes? I'm must curious if they use the knock sensors to tune the supercharged cars like you would with a DSM. Using an AEM EMS you can tell the ECU how much timing to pull and how much to richen the mixture depending on voltage detected by the knock sensor. I have never tuned an NA motor. I know the Honda tuners tend to use timing per boost levels based on previous experience and do not rely on a knock sensor.

I'm curious if these tuners even touch the timing maps. I wouldn't be surprised if the boxed tunes were just leaned out factory fuel maps, speed limiter removal, and maybe a couple other minor things. If your putting boost to an NA motor or running higher boost levels by changing pulleys on an E55 then maybe the timing is pulled by the tuner.

Southways

All fields are accessible but figuring out the right set & the ramifications of changes is the real challenge. Most maps have tentacles.

No, it's way harder than rocket science because there is a lot of readily available data & formal classes for rocket science ... and the info is typically not encrypted & is in English rather than German shorthand.

1. Expensive is relative, but the raw cost of hardware & software we use is >$10,000. The cost of learning it depends on how much you value your time, but allow at least 200 hours to get familiar with it assuming you have experience with similar tuning products ... then add the cost of any broken engines.
2. Anybody relying on knock sensors to tune should not be allowed behind the keyboard. Period.
3. There are thousands of fields that need to be examined & hundreds tweaked when recalibrating for a supercharger, especially when applying for CARB certification. Even something as simple as "leaning out a couple of fuel maps" can take several hours of testing to ensure cold start, cruise, PE, VE, idle, WOT etc. are not compromised ... & they usually are. Tentacles.

roadtalontsi

while properstyle has made some actual good posts in this thread i dont get this one.

Supra's have v160's they dont get upgraded, only rebuilt when damaged or worn out. not power related. Im confused seeing as you have a 2jz'd 300zx why you'd use that as an example. Did you cheap out and get the r154? Another comment i'm intrigued at is 1200cc injectors - 694whp at 90% duty cycle. Are you running an auto, non locking coverter - high stall? I hope so because otherwise you've got issues somewher (tune, fuel supply to injectors, fpr)


Now back in slight support. I have no idea what these said posts and previous discussions saying that e85 has no gains or benefits? I recall a thread with people debating over running race gas with a stock ecu if it has a benefit. No one had solid evidence other than one guy who's e.t. was trapping 2-3mph higher with race gas. It's a no brained that a race gas or e85 tune would be beneficial to any c63 regardless of modifications. Even at rpm points where the engine is not octane limited on max brake torque, lower cylinder temps and less mechanical stress would be put on the engine. We're already pushing 11.3:1 compression thats near insanity on pump gas to begin with. A proper tune with lots of camshaft adjusting could net serious gains. As far as blown applications go - yea you're correct jrcart's clk is running e85 or e90 whatever it is.

Fuel systems arent really all that pricey but that's not really the issue. It all boils down to the root problem.... not making power. Putting power down, be it hooking (c63's cant fit big tires) or getting the power from the engine to the tires without toasting the transmission. I know the stage 3 kit comes with bigger injectors they appear to be bosche ev2 style injectors that are somewhat common in the after market so going bigger wouldnt be an issue. I've never discussed how big they are or the limits of the stock fuel system with Weistec since Im not on stage 3, however if steve says it's near tapped out at stage 3 i'd believe it. The problem with adding pumps inline is you dont want them running all the time. The stock fuel pumps (yes there are 2) are pulse width modulated with separate control modules for each so that you aren't heating up the fuel excessively in the non return fuel system. I would agree the stock lines probably aren't up running e85 size/volume wise. The wiestec kits come with an upgraded larger rail which could probably work fine for e85. I doubt the tank or any internal components of it wouldn't hold up to e85 either, they are designed with 10% ethanol in mind already, most are plastic.

Bottom line is the owners of these cars aren't on the same level as other tuned cars. They expect perfect drivability, reliability and hassle free ownership. These are things e85 doesnt fall in line with, and nor do standalone ecu's. They also dont care about having 1000whp. Once the prices drop even more I'm sure the tuning and products will further evolve. I've already started to see some really bad c63's in poor taste that are ragged out p.o.s.'s getting some good diy and homemade garbage modifications. Im not saying going e85 is that direction but alot of the diy is alot of garbage. Not many people can afford to do things right or have the knowledge. Just look at the evo/sti/supra/240/honda crowd. Lots of terrible diy and c63s are in the 20$'s now.

BLKROKT

Thank you. That was me trapping 4mph more with race gas as as the only variable factor on the same day. Not hard to figure that one out you'd think.
Some were saying that our compression ratios aren't even high. That was funny.

layzie12g

That is the EXACT response I would expect from a large company. Tuning these cars is obviously way too difficult for anyone to even attempt to do.

****ING BULL****!


Not using a knock sensor as a reference point for tuning a forced induction engine is leaving me a little speechless. Not exactly sure if we misunderstood each other or what. I've tuned a lot of fast cars in my life. 80% of them make more power per liter (pump gas) then then any M156 EVER will, and to this day they are still running. For all the people interested, I'll send some screen shots of the software and interfaces my friend uses to gain access to the Mercedes ECU. He has access to 63s, 55s, and he owns a couple V12 cars. His BMW tunes are sold world wide.

I've been assembling engines and tuning cars for years. Is tuning a German car going to be as easy as ECMLINK or AEM EMS? I'm sure it will not be. For you to say "harder then rocket science" is ****ing ridiculous. I don't find that being a great way to promote your product or company.

Southways

You have seriously misunderstood me. I have not suggested any such thing & we happily sell our kits (for less) without any calibration, encouraging others like you to develop tunes for their own applications and/or modifications. What I was attempting to convey is that changing a single set of parameters in one area of a ME9.7 will typically have ramifications in multiple other segments.

You asked:
If a sensor detects knock, the event has already occurred and integrity is compromised. The challenge of a good calibrator is to only use the sensors to catch anomalies, not to use them as a reference. Knock = stress and/or damage. I stand firm on anyone relying on knock sensors to tune should not be tuning.

I thought it was obvious that the comment was tongue-in-cheek & not meant to be taken literally - I was making a point that there is not much information or training available for the intricacies of these systems, unlike the multitude of educational institutes teaching "rocket science". Sorry if you found that offensive.
However, a good friend of mine is an Aerospace Engineer (rocket scientist) - worked on jet propulsion control systems. He watched as I tuned his car and stated that the complexity of the modern car is way more intense & multifaceted than the systems used for "rockets".


My previous post was not about promoting product or company - it was intended to answer questions and assist in understanding the depth of the details required in calibrating these types of systems.
Feel free to start a fresh separate thread on calibration software available (or becoming available) for this platform.

layzie12g

I'm by no means implying I know more about tuning then you or your company does. Let me just make sure we are clear on this.

Knock sensors using ECMLINK or AEM EMS are always going to detect engine "noise" as engine rpm/load increases. This is usually done on a 0-5V scale, as I'm sure you know. Spotting the abnormality in the "knock profile" is the way a turbocharged car should be aggressively tuned unless your using race gas, E85, or E98.

Tuning on these fuels is a different story. You will reach a mechanical limit or melt things by adding too much timing because no "knock" will be present. No one should attempt to tune a car without knowing the basics of how the software and vehicle work.

I'm going to assume the fuel/timing maps are not load/cell based like every other tuning platform I have ever seen. Early DSMLINK was very simple. It used sliders to adjust fuel and timing on an rpm scale. The vehicle went in to open loop at WOT. Very easy and very straight forward. The software evolved to the point where you can take your MAS car and remove the airflow sensor and run the vehicles strictly in speed density. This is when it the software changed to a cell/load based map system.

The BMW fuel and timing maps use load/cells. If a company invested time and money in to making a tuning option for these cars it would increase the aftermarket potential 10 fold. I know so many import/domestic people that like German cars, but would never own a car they can not tune. For this I can not blame them.

Can you post a screen shot of a fuel or timing map?

Properstyle

To start only 6spd turbo model supras have v160/v161s with is less than 11 percent of those made from 93-2002. Next Majority of turbo factory body supras are 5 spd AUTOs so yes there is a trannny upgrade there. Next majority of those that own a higher hp supra are running it at the drag strip or the airstrip runs like the half mile event. The fastest and most consistent supras are AUTOs. Now since you did open you self up for this the v160 is no bullet proof it has synchro issues that are quite common from 3-4th gear which are your pulling gears in a supra.

I have a r154 and have been beating the living hell out of it for quite some time now with no issue. I didnt cheap out on a single disk clutch like most do and end up breaking the trans from the shock. I run a multi disc clutch. I also ran a 154 because it bolts up in line with the trans tunnel and without having to modify or beat the tunnel walls to make room.

I wasn't cheap at all about buying a 300zx I've owned a few of them soley because my mother had one before she past away when I was nine. Now when it comes to performance a 300zx slick top body is both more rigid an 400lbs lighter than a turbo supra targa. This added with the fact I prefer the exterior lines of the 300zx z32 more than I do the mk4 supra. Cost is not really a care.

In regards to fuel I run stock Base static pressure on my car. I could easly cheat the injectors by increasing this stock pressure but that is not wise to do as that effects the entire rage of the map and simply decreasing injector inpluse does not correct it. the car would have to be returned for driveablity and wot all over again. There is also quite a possiblity that the car was spinning on the rollers as it was only on 275/35 18s ra1s. to say there is an issue with the fuel setup becuase you think 90 percent is too high at just at 700whp is kinda foolish espsically on e85. duty cylce can be higher because the tuner likes tuning on the rich said or safety, it can be hight from a rpm over run etc. It's not just cut and dry.

You have to keep in mind a 2jz is not a v8 smaller displacement motors will always require more fuel than a v8. added with this most don't reallize just how much fuel 30-40 percent increase is. Now finally there is no such thing as tuning to a set af-r. Some motors in one configure want more fuel while others are ok with less. I had one vg build that loved being rich, having a 10.9 afr the motor made more power than it did at 11.5, the number of variables that affect this would make a book.


A inline pump does not need or have to run at all times which I've already stated. I'm sure a can bus port can be used to turn this pump on when needed based on load, PSI being reach, speed, or rpm. or a pressure switch ,etc There are always more than one way to do anything.

While I agree that alot of DIYers just throw stuff together majority of how most shops get started is from diy. These are facts, yes you have those that just had the money to start off in a shop but the talent and drive to do what they do starts from doing it them selves first.


Lastly to listen to someone say that the fuel system was nearly tapped out just because they run a stage three kit(which only has upgraded injectors which based on the hp jump from stage 2-3 are liklely less than a 20lb increase. but can't speak to any of the following , injector duty cycle, pressure drop, lean conditions etc. would be foolish, they are only going off hear say from the person supplying parts that makes money off of everything they buy. If I can tell you, you need a whole new fuel system and you buy it with out asking for logs or actually data to make a smart choice that will be money in my pocket all day. Regardless of what you want to believe this is how business make money.

4ramin

question,
who is doing the tuning on the system?

Southways

Kits can be purchased with a tune or without.
The supplied tune is very conservative and will be CARB legal for all MY's, loaded by OBD2 using Android "MyPersonalFlasher". It has been developed in conjunction with OETuning and PowerTorque.

RNS-11Z

Hi south ways

Any more news on this kit?

Thanks
H

LVSpeedemon

I'm curious as well. I don't see the kit on Maggie's website yet. Haven't seen any useful posts on this thread in a while.

Southways

Two of the installs in Melbourne Australia...
Several more currently underway.

LVSpeedemon

That's very nice, but where can someone like myself in the US buy a kit?

Southways

Drop a note to Sales@magnusonproducts.com (direct the enquiry to Andrew).
I don't know if we have anyone in CO, but Andrew will head you in the right direction.

LVSpeedemon

Thanks for the tip. With having Kleemann only an hour & a half away from me, I think I can have it tuned for our altitude too.

Edition1c63

I'm surprised you guys haven't found a shop to use out here in colorado. Isn't finish line a magnuson dealer? Addicted tuning would have been the main prospect as Bill tuned porches,lambos, nobles, Ferrari's and gt-rs but he moved to Dubai. Elite performance and finish line I think would be great if they had the tuning software. Sniper maybe?