PACougar

I can see this is pointless, I wish you the best of luck. My offers still open if you ever make it out here.

Mazspeed

I don't like things that cannot be explained by science. It has nothing to do with "liking" something. If I felt this could give me half the gains you say, I would buy it, but logically it cannot.
What you have written is facts to you, not to me. Not even close in fact. You cannot account for anything else and have not tried. Why is that? Don't you want to know why you got those "gains"? I would.

PACougar

First of all, facts aren't exactly open to interpretation. Lol. Second, we haven't had a chance to do more testing, it wasn't our car we were testing.

glennhl

So when is someone going to do another back to back dyno run to verify the big gain? And I'm hoping this back to back run uses stock filters as the baseline. No one has dared say it, but maybe the AFE Dry filters are the problem? Someone said they could have been dirty, but the car's owner said they were clean.

And one other thing really bothers me. Someone stated that they ran back to back with and without stock filters and showed no gain. That kind of discredits the claim that moving the filters up removes a blockage.

Mazspeed

That was interesting. I would have guessed a bit of power being robbed just due to the change in flow patterns. Great find.

Mazspeed

You have provided absolutely no facts as to why this would have gained any power at all. None. Zero. Zilch. You provided no facts as to your testing methods and you never even questioned something that makes no sense to the average car guy, let along someone who builds and tests cars. The only fact you have given is that you say it gave more power when you did a filter and spacer swap. That's it. Too me, you didn't test enough and come up with a conclusion as to why. Zero facts

Mazspeed

Yep. That goes to show total flow. A good clean filter will net good results. A bad dirty clogged filter will inhibit air flow and total air volume passed into the intake. Not having a filter is allowing all the total flow the system can handle.

gaspam

lol yeah with his $2000 Carbonio intake (now thats a total joke- im sure it produces mad power) and his 11.57 @121 signature run surely he's the expert and we should take his advise.... if we want to spend a lot of money to go slow

i wonder if he is out bashing up his headers right now to make the more power he thinks it will make

funny how he had no problem believing just changing to ROW airbox picked up 22 whp (basically by just removing some flow restriction) but have major problem believing same concept here (removing filter inlet restriction)

https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...dyno-test.html

thesaintusa

Not to be the devil's advocate but it isn't up to a dyno operator to explain why something makes a difference.

We are entitled to our opinions but not entitled to the facts.

The discussion can be answered with a repeat of a dyno, even using the same 'magical car' that was originally presented.

My question is 'what will be our responses (mine included) if there is a satisfactory video showing a pre and post dyno with and without the filters that shows gains?'

It isn't our position to understand them, just to accept them if there is a gain. I assume headers make more power because they flow more. But I don't need to understand that to accept the power gain. It is what it is.

I think that the people who know most about dynos can comment, but 3 runs (stock with new filters -> spacer and filters -> stock with new filters) would that answer the skeptics?

As for the car that showed no gain without the filters at all, one could easily discount that dyno run (with no gains) to the same logic that is being applied to the UPD intake spacers.

I have no stake in the game, do not own a set of spacers and have never put my car on the dyno.

But my current dilemma is do I get my heads on my Subaru worked on when they will take much less metal off than this supposed obstruction of the stock filter. Using the same logic why would I port and polish the heads if the amount of metal removed is minimal?

Mazspeed

Delete your account!

Mazspeed

Thanks

gaspam

actually i think you should as you are spouting lots of false psuedo science... when are you going to get back to your BS dyno manipulation response you were supposed to get back to me on?

you're too stupid to know the difference between a load dyno and inertia dyno... serious stay away from cars (or keep paying people to build them for you), because you talk a lot about things you really dont understand

Mazspeed

The only reason why I don't have a real conversation with you as I have with PACougar is for a few reasons. He sounds educated. You clearly are not.
He is treating others with respect during a disagreement. I respect that. You're just a ******** who spouts out crap and garbage while trying to put down others. I just don't take uneducated children like you seriously. You're the kind of keyboard cowboy who talks a big game on the computer in your mom's basement, but if you had to see a person whom you were wildly disrespectful on the computer, you would cower and hide like the child you are.


Just calls it like I sees it. Now go to bed!

gaspam

lol nice response, but in reality the reason you didnt reply is because you know your wrong and have no comeback to you links you posted to try and show people how you can manipulate a dynojet, yet all your links were for everything but dynojet! lmao

oh and the keyboard warrior callout... lol, yeah i would run like a little biatch... sure... tell ya what, i train at ATT so you can stop by anytime you are in south FL and you can see me cower... we can friendly spar wearing head/shin gear if you like or just mat rolling gi or nogi w/ no sparing if you like

and actually you started the disrespect way back in the thread, not me Mike Bassi <--- my uneducated @ss got skills

Mazspeed

You want some answers on how to manipulate a chassis dyno, and this goes for ALL dynos? Ok here goes.


This is from Hot Rod magazine:


There are many ways to produce inaccurate results. Some methods are malicious; some are from poor test procedures. We’ve discussed how myriad environmental factors can affect the results. Obtaining consistent, accurate results in the first order requires controlling these variables to the extent possible. “If nothing is controlled, it’s all bull,” says Jeff Burt. “The more things are controlled, the more accurate the test will be.” At a minimum, the facility should accurately correct for atmospheric conditions, which is standard practice for engine dyno-testing.
Varying the tie-down method or tension from run to run can significantly alter the results. Other ways to skew results include changing tire pressure, testing the car when the engine is very hot or cold, lying to the software about estimated wheel slip, hacking the software in general, moving the external dyno cooling fans closer or farther from the air inlet, and placing the temperature sensor in unusually cold or hot air so it skews the correction factor.



Although hydraulic and eddy-current dynos have the potential to be the most accurate, their myriad test regimens make them more vulnerable to the whims of unscrupulous operators. The strain gauges must be correctly calibrated. Vehicle weight, drag coefficients, and other variables must be correctly entered into the software if load testing is combined with vehicle simulation mode. Dynojet claims it’s harder to fudge the numbers on a pure inertia dyno: “Since the mass is fixed, the actual measured results will be the same every time. If you looked at a dyno test as an experiment, the dyno would be the control,” with the car, vehicle dynamics, and atmospheric conditions the variables. “On our dynos, the atmospheric conditions are sampled automatically, and there aren’t any other user inputs that could skew the results one way or the other.”
However, repeatability does not necessarily mean accuracy. Some experts maintain that inertia-dyno data may not actually represent the true power and torque produced by the vehicle being tested. For dead-nuts accuracy, the load-bearing dyno remains the standard. Just be suspicious of extremely favorable correction factors, power gains that don’t make sense based on empirical evidence, or unusually high numbers. According to SuperFlow’s Bettes, “A very good method of evaluation is to have the speed versus time plotted or to graph engine speed versus time. Another indication is the evaluation of how much fuel flow was used, and looking at brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC) numbers. If in doubt on the correction process, one should ask to see the correction factor and its arithmetic components."


You can cheat the numbers by inputting different correction factors.


By the way, it didn't take a genius to find my name from the link I have on my profile to my Camaro in Super Chevy. Not exactly Sherlock Holmes.

Mazspeed

A tutorial on it.
http://blog.vittuned.com/dynojet-fudging-tutorial-101/

gaspam

all you just proved is the same thing before... that load bearing dyno's can be manipulated (Vehicle weight, drag coefficients, and other variables must be correctly entered into the software if load testing is combined with vehicle simulation mode), which we all agree on... and is completely unrelated since we are talking about inertia dyno dynojet graphs in this thread, and even your pasted quote says the same thing... that the dynojet cant be skewed (again other than the 2 tricks i noted earlier in the thread)

gaspam

omg you're killing me... this is the same 2 ways to manipulate a dynojet that i mentions already a few times ... you can run in a different gear but i will clearly show up in the graph with one curve peaking earlier than the other and falling of at lower rpm (just as it does in the graphs in your link)....

and we already discussed the weather station and yes you can hold a heater to it, but it will be easily noticed on the graph

and besides all that conspiracy theory, do you really think an independent shop is going to go through all that effort to fudge a dyno for a product they dont even make, on a customers cars? for what, so they can come on a forum and zing you? PA isnt making any money of the spacer kits so whats in it for him to waste his time trying to manipulate a dyno?

now i really am off to bed as all this conspiracy theory thinking has got me sleepy lol

Mazspeed

Other than the 2 tricks to manipulate the dynojet? Isn't 1 enough? Isn't what you input into the computer or the vast number of things you can do to give false readings enough?


Face it, it can be done. But that's not even the fricken point here even though I just proved a dynojet can be manipulated. The point of this entire thread is how is this spacer going to give a 20+hp advantage across the board.

Mazspeed

I am not talking about PA, but there are lots of people and vendors out there that get paid to do that very thing.
Do you trust a doctor with a lab coat on TV to tell you about the latest big pecker pills that will do wonders, or the hundreds of paid people who pay big money to have some pitchman say lies on TV for a product. It's done everyday. You don't think some small company would pay some shop with a dyno to make false readings to make a product look good? It's done everyday.

BLKROKT

So funny how you low-IQ Bros always have the same response. "Come to my gym where I'm pumping dudes and I'll show you what's up." Lol you all just love rolling around on a mat with all them sweaty mens around. I'm cool with that man, whatever. But I'm taken, sorry.

Real scary guy. Seriously I'm shaking here.

Go eat some protein powder and get back to squatting bro.

BLKROKT

Of course, now it's impossible to even follow this thread unless mazspeed and I quote everything, because you guys are retroactively editing all your posts so you don't sound quite as stupid. Nice.

BLKROKT

Bought for 1/4 of that genius. It was worth a shot, and it's probably made fractional power versus ROW. It's a bigger airbox so it must be super-powerful... duuuh you're arguing yourself here guy (different shape after the filter, different neck, made of different material with different cooling properties - these are the variables that realistic people account for). It's called a smart purchase. And I don't remember giving any advice. And unless you've gone faster, then you just look stupid bagging on me.



Thanks for stalking.

Here's my post from that thread:

And here was my response to the ROW thread:

Explain to me how these responses are different? I expressed skepticism for both. Reading comprehension not so good huh? It's ok go pump some iron.

Jasonoff

Just so there's no hard feelings...

BLKROKT

That was classy. What are you going to do with that bit of info, find him and go beat him up? For what other reason would you possibly post that unless it's a thinly-veiled threat (definition: obvious) that "you know who he is"? Over a car forum discussion? Get a life psycho. Look me up anytime.