Brake cooling ducts and modified front bumper
05-27-2018, 06:46 PM
#151
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2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
I ran the fronts at 46psi hot and that seemed to work great. Much less rollling onto the sidewalls and wear looks good on the new set (they were also pre heat cycled this time). No apparent damage and I’ll keep running them at this pressure. Looking to move to a dedicated set of wheels with full slicks in the near future, or as soon as I can figure out how to install a trailer hitch.
I should have listened to this ^. I think I’m fine at 46psi for now but it’s a suboptimal pressure for grip.
For track duty, a PSC2 255/35 is probably too wide on an 8.5" rim, especially on a heavy car like the 63. You'll be rolling over the outer sidewall while the inner one would be folding under the rim. Aside from handling issues, at worst you could pop the outer bead or get a blowout on the inner sidewall where the carcass will fold under.
Last edited by BLKROKT; 05-27-2018 at 08:39 PM.
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BLKROKT (05-28-2018)
05-28-2018, 12:58 AM
#153
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W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
LOL. I just picked up a lightly used set of 19x9s & 19x10s CCW wheels from another member here (I think you may have bought a bunch of the other goodies he was selling) for this reason. Yeah, I have a built C5Z track rat that is considerably faster and cheaper to abuse, but man do I love that M156 singing at full chat and pulling like a freight train. Every now and then I'll do a session or two in the C63 and it is still completely intoxicating. I don't know what it is about that car, but it has imprinted on my psyche and I keep craving it...
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BLKROKT (04-17-2019)
05-28-2018, 01:28 AM
#154
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LOL. I just picked up a lightly used set of 19x9s & 19x10s CCW wheels from another member here (I think you may have bought a bunch of the other goodies he was selling) for this reason. Yeah, I have a built C5Z track rat that is considerably faster and cheaper to abuse, but man do I love that M156 singing at full chat and pulling like a freight train. Every now and then I'll do a session or two in the C63 and it is still completely intoxicating. I don't know what it is about that car, but it has imprinted on my psyche and I keep craving it...
05-28-2018, 04:16 PM
#156
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The ones above? No. Snapped frikin tire cords which peeled away the sidewall. Both fronts. The scary thing is that they were still holding air fine. Was running them HARD at Watkins Glen and noticed the cord sticking out between sessions. 42psi is not enough pressure for the 255/35-19’s on a 4100lb car pulling 1.4g in turns on 8.5” wide rims. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 46psi hot seemed to be alright last weekend, but VIR doesn’t have as many high g turns. We’ll see how they hold up at NJMP next weekend.
Never ever skip the between track sessions check on your cars. That could have ended really badly.
Never ever skip the between track sessions check on your cars. That could have ended really badly.
05-28-2018, 04:39 PM
#158
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I’ll get them sent back eventually, but right now I’m still just annoyed by the whole thing.
05-28-2018, 04:48 PM
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C63 amg Custom 67 Camaro GLK 350 4matic 2017 AMG GTS
I talked to Michelin 2 weeks ago and the guy on the phone was a bit of a dïck. He said if I’m lucky I might get some credit for tread left. I told him that was totally unacceptable and that this should never happen to their top-of-the-line racing tires (which were properly inflated, the right load rating and on a rim width within their spec), and he basically said “oh well”. There’s a convoluted process to get them inspected by an authorized dealer and sent back (on MY dime) and I’ve just been way too busy with life to bother. Tire Rack immediately passed the buck as soon as I said that I had been using them on track - I mean, that’s what they’re for what did they expect?
I’ll get them sent back eventually, but right now I’m still just annoyed by the whole thing.
05-28-2018, 05:04 PM
#160
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I hate to say it, but you probably won't get any help from Michelin or any tire company on something like this. If it was a brand new tire you might have recourse but tire companies especially with their race tires know that these tires will be put to the limit therefore they feel that their customers will know that the abuse they encounter on the track is theirs alone. If I was Michelin I would want to see this tire as a way to make the next model better. What spec is this tire? Is it Mercedes Spec? Porsche Spec?
The tires are XL load rated
295/30ZR-19 MICHELIN PILOT SPORT CUP 2 XL
255/35ZR-19 MICHELIN PILOT SPORT CUP 2 XL
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Mazspeed (05-28-2018)
05-28-2018, 10:12 PM
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Yeah I get that and fair enough. That’s basically where my head is at now a month later. Stuff happens. But I’ve never seen that before and neither had anyone who’s looked at the tires so far. I thought they’d do something out of goodwill, but it will take me jumping through their hoops to see I guess. I’m not really that bothered about it anymore. I just don’t want it to happen again.
The tires are XL load rated
295/30ZR-19 MICHELIN PILOT SPORT CUP 2 XL
255/35ZR-19 MICHELIN PILOT SPORT CUP 2 XL
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BLKROKT (05-28-2018)
05-28-2018, 10:49 PM
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I’m looking for a 102y spec. I can’t find it right now. They must be out. In fact I can’t find a 295 size on tire rack right now either. If you can find a 102y load index it will be a stronger tire for the weight.
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BLKROKT (05-28-2018)
05-28-2018, 11:15 PM
#163
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Thanks Maz. The Trofeo R’s are 93Y/100Y and Porsche certified in the sizes I run which isn’t actually better than the MPSC2’s at 96Y/98Y (strangely Tire Rack doesn’t carry them in 295 anymore and they’re not on the Michelin site either). Will keep looking but I really need a front tire that’s closer to 100Y, and it doesn’t appear that any 255/265 width tires fit that bill. I probably just need to go to a 9” or 9.5” rim in front and that should support the sidewall much better.
AND/OR I really need to get more sidewall. If I move up to 9.5F/11R rim widths (1” more, will require more fender work), I could run the Trofeo R’s in 265/35 (98Y) and 305/30 (102Y) or the MPSC2’s at the same. Both are N0 XL rated for Porsche and/or MO1 for Mercedes which have a higher weight rating than the regular spec and weigh about 1lb more also. They run 26.3” diameter which is 0.3” more than I have on now, but my suspension is adjustable enough to deal with that if I can get the wheel offsets right. I think that was the diameter of the OE sizes anyway. I think that’s the ticket, thanks bud.
AND/OR I really need to get more sidewall. If I move up to 9.5F/11R rim widths (1” more, will require more fender work), I could run the Trofeo R’s in 265/35 (98Y) and 305/30 (102Y) or the MPSC2’s at the same. Both are N0 XL rated for Porsche and/or MO1 for Mercedes which have a higher weight rating than the regular spec and weigh about 1lb more also. They run 26.3” diameter which is 0.3” more than I have on now, but my suspension is adjustable enough to deal with that if I can get the wheel offsets right. I think that was the diameter of the OE sizes anyway. I think that’s the ticket, thanks bud.
Last edited by BLKROKT; 05-28-2018 at 11:53 PM.
05-29-2018, 01:31 AM
#164
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Jim,
I didn't see this before. It could have indeed ended up badly... it's a good thing you caught it.
I am indeed tempted to blame this on the narrow rim width for the tire size, not the load rating. For track duty with a 255 front tire on the C63, I'd be looking for a 9.5" rim if it will fit and a 10" for a 265. Porsche uses a 12" rim for a 305 PSC2 and a 9" rim for a 245 on the GT3 which is lighter to boot (especially at the front... but that 305 on the 12" rear gives you an idea of what they think is an appropriate rim size), so if you're going to spend the money on a set of rims for track duty you might as well size them properly.
Someone once told me that the Mercedes MO tires have additional belts / plies or some other type of reinforcement to increase the sidewall stiffness over the identical "regular" tires, and I know that the PSC2 now comes in a 255/35ZR19/XL (96Y) MO1. I don't remember who it was and I have no idea if that is indeed the case, but the fact that the MO tire weighs an extra ~1.5 lbs over the regular one suggests that they may not have been talking out of their butt. You might want to try getting those for the fronts next time - but wider rims would still be a must.
Cheers,
Doug
I didn't see this before. It could have indeed ended up badly... it's a good thing you caught it.
I am indeed tempted to blame this on the narrow rim width for the tire size, not the load rating. For track duty with a 255 front tire on the C63, I'd be looking for a 9.5" rim if it will fit and a 10" for a 265. Porsche uses a 12" rim for a 305 PSC2 and a 9" rim for a 245 on the GT3 which is lighter to boot (especially at the front... but that 305 on the 12" rear gives you an idea of what they think is an appropriate rim size), so if you're going to spend the money on a set of rims for track duty you might as well size them properly.
Someone once told me that the Mercedes MO tires have additional belts / plies or some other type of reinforcement to increase the sidewall stiffness over the identical "regular" tires, and I know that the PSC2 now comes in a 255/35ZR19/XL (96Y) MO1. I don't remember who it was and I have no idea if that is indeed the case, but the fact that the MO tire weighs an extra ~1.5 lbs over the regular one suggests that they may not have been talking out of their butt. You might want to try getting those for the fronts next time - but wider rims would still be a must.
Cheers,
Doug
05-29-2018, 01:50 AM
#165
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Jim,
I didn't see this before. It could have indeed ended up badly... it's a good thing you caught it.
I am indeed tempted to blame this on the narrow rim width for the tire size, not the load rating. For track duty with a 255 front tire on the C63, I'd be looking for a 9.5" rim if it will fit and a 10" for a 265. Porsche uses a 12" rim for a 305 PSC2 and a 9" rim for a 245 on the GT3 which is lighter to boot (especially at the front... but that 305 on the 12" rear gives you an idea of what they think is an appropriate rim size), so if you're going to spend the money on a set of rims for track duty you might as well size them properly.
Someone once told me that the Mercedes MO tires have additional belts / plies or some other type of reinforcement to increase the sidewall stiffness over the identical "regular" tires, and I know that the PSC2 now comes in a 255/35ZR19/XL (96Y) MO1. I don't remember who it was and I have no idea if that is indeed the case, but the fact that the MO tire weighs an extra ~1.5 lbs over the regular one suggests that they may not have been talking out of their butt. You might want to try getting those for the fronts next time - but wider rims would still be a must.
Cheers,
Doug
I didn't see this before. It could have indeed ended up badly... it's a good thing you caught it.
I am indeed tempted to blame this on the narrow rim width for the tire size, not the load rating. For track duty with a 255 front tire on the C63, I'd be looking for a 9.5" rim if it will fit and a 10" for a 265. Porsche uses a 12" rim for a 305 PSC2 and a 9" rim for a 245 on the GT3 which is lighter to boot (especially at the front... but that 305 on the 12" rear gives you an idea of what they think is an appropriate rim size), so if you're going to spend the money on a set of rims for track duty you might as well size them properly.
Someone once told me that the Mercedes MO tires have additional belts / plies or some other type of reinforcement to increase the sidewall stiffness over the identical "regular" tires, and I know that the PSC2 now comes in a 255/35ZR19/XL (96Y) MO1. I don't remember who it was and I have no idea if that is indeed the case, but the fact that the MO tire weighs an extra ~1.5 lbs over the regular one suggests that they may not have been talking out of their butt. You might want to try getting those for the fronts next time - but wider rims would still be a must.
Cheers,
Doug
Thanks again
05-29-2018, 02:51 AM
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Jim,
I am indeed tempted to blame this on the narrow rim width for the tire size, not the load rating.
.
Someone once told me that the Mercedes MO tires have additional belts / plies or some other type of reinforcement to increase the sidewall stiffness over the identical "regular" tires, and I know that the PSC2 now comes in a 255/35ZR19/XL (96Y) MO1. I don't remember who it was and I have no idea if that is indeed the case, but the fact that the MO tire weighs an extra ~1.5 lbs over the regular one suggests that they may not have been talking out of their butt.
I am indeed tempted to blame this on the narrow rim width for the tire size, not the load rating.
.
Someone once told me that the Mercedes MO tires have additional belts / plies or some other type of reinforcement to increase the sidewall stiffness over the identical "regular" tires, and I know that the PSC2 now comes in a 255/35ZR19/XL (96Y) MO1. I don't remember who it was and I have no idea if that is indeed the case, but the fact that the MO tire weighs an extra ~1.5 lbs over the regular one suggests that they may not have been talking out of their butt.
Porsche runs the 102y MO1 which is a higher load rating for the tire than the 96y. I don’t know about the extra belts, never heard that, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Also if you get the Porsche version of the Trofeo R tire at 102y you also get a touch more tread. It’s still a shaved tire, but not as shaved. It’s also about $15 each more pricy that the normal Trofeo R. Get them heat cycled. It makes a huge difference.
Last edited by Mazspeed; 05-29-2018 at 02:56 AM.
05-29-2018, 02:44 PM
#167
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Have any of you guys tried running the Toyo 888r tyres around a track on your C63's.
Front 245/35ZR19LOAD / SPEED(89Y)
Rear 265/30ZR19LOAD / SPEED93Y
They have a lower load rating. But they are supposed to be a semi slick racing Tyre.
Front 245/35ZR19LOAD / SPEED(89Y)
Rear 265/30ZR19LOAD / SPEED93Y
They have a lower load rating. But they are supposed to be a semi slick racing Tyre.
05-29-2018, 02:49 PM
#168
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Loved them on my 996TT, but the load rating is too low for the C63. You’d be asking for trouble unless you like tire failure.
05-29-2018, 02:53 PM
#169
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Yeah, definitely don't want tyre failure.
What is the minimum load rating I should be looking at for front / rear for track use.
What is the minimum load rating I should be looking at for front / rear for track use.
05-30-2018, 03:29 PM
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The tire load rating is essentially a result of the tire size and the carcass construction. For any given tire size though, all of them appear to have the same rating (in either the SL or XL categories). All 245/35ZR19 XLs for example appears to have a 93 load rating... can't find any tires that are different. Porsche also uses their own tires with reinforced sidewalls (theirs are N0, N1 etc.) but I don't know what 102Y Trofeo R Mazspeed is thinking of (had one set of those too.. much too expensive and again not ideal for the car). Furthermore, you've never going to find anything even remotely resembling that load range... the 265/45R20 for my ML that I used to tow the old race car with uses 108H tires... that's for a 5200+ lbs curb weight + occupants / cargo + trailer tongue weight. 93 load rating would be sufficient. The OEM 19" 235 fronts only have a load rating of 91 (but they are MO reinforced).
I ran a set of R888s when I first got the C63 but on my 18" rims. At the time it was pretty much the only R-comp that would fit, but after I got familiar and comfortable with the car itself and started pushing it a litle more, they were far from ideal. Even at 245F & 265R they were still too wide for the OEM 8" & 9" rims, and while the 18" in those sizes have a load rating of 93, the car is too heavy for them, you have to run them at too high a pressure for them to provide optimal grip and then you push the tire temps past the optimal window and they get greasy as well... no bueno.
The car is simply too heavy for the grip of a proper R-comp, let alone a race slick... you will either have to over-inflate them or they will always roll under no matter what. The ideal tire would be something like the PCS2s, but in 18s if you haven't changed the front brake rotor diameter. Best bang for the buck would be to buy a set of old C63 18" rims - those are now a dime a dozen (and for track duty you don't care if they are cosmetically challenged for as long as they are not bent or previously repaired) and a set of Nitto NT05s in the OEM 235/40R18 95W XL & 255/35ZR18 94W XL sizes. Load rating is perfect, both the rims and the tires are cheap, and you'll likely have as much grip as you can realistically use on a car like this. Or maybe get a set of aftermarket 18x8.5 or 18x9 F that clear the brake calipers and 18x9.5 or 18x10 R and go with 245/40R18 97W XL & 275/35ZR18 99W XL Nittos. Yes, 18s - not 19s. There is no advantage to 19s over the 18s even if have money to burn.
I ran a set of R888s when I first got the C63 but on my 18" rims. At the time it was pretty much the only R-comp that would fit, but after I got familiar and comfortable with the car itself and started pushing it a litle more, they were far from ideal. Even at 245F & 265R they were still too wide for the OEM 8" & 9" rims, and while the 18" in those sizes have a load rating of 93, the car is too heavy for them, you have to run them at too high a pressure for them to provide optimal grip and then you push the tire temps past the optimal window and they get greasy as well... no bueno.
The car is simply too heavy for the grip of a proper R-comp, let alone a race slick... you will either have to over-inflate them or they will always roll under no matter what. The ideal tire would be something like the PCS2s, but in 18s if you haven't changed the front brake rotor diameter. Best bang for the buck would be to buy a set of old C63 18" rims - those are now a dime a dozen (and for track duty you don't care if they are cosmetically challenged for as long as they are not bent or previously repaired) and a set of Nitto NT05s in the OEM 235/40R18 95W XL & 255/35ZR18 94W XL sizes. Load rating is perfect, both the rims and the tires are cheap, and you'll likely have as much grip as you can realistically use on a car like this. Or maybe get a set of aftermarket 18x8.5 or 18x9 F that clear the brake calipers and 18x9.5 or 18x10 R and go with 245/40R18 97W XL & 275/35ZR18 99W XL Nittos. Yes, 18s - not 19s. There is no advantage to 19s over the 18s even if have money to burn.
05-30-2018, 03:37 PM
#172
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I agree that the Trofeo R is a very pricy tire. I have had good luck with the Porsche spec units for the C63 but as you stated the car is too heavy for optimum track use. But I think it's the best tire for the C63 if you can find the 100y or 102y NO spec tires. I don't see them on tire rack right now, but they seem to come and go. I also agree that the 18s would be a better choice for track use.
05-30-2018, 04:47 PM
#173
Doug and Maz - sound advice.
Unfortunately, 18" won't work up front for those of us with the RB 390mm rotors, as mentioned.
Seems we have lots of trade offs with this car, unless we drop significant weight.
Unfortunately, 18" won't work up front for those of us with the RB 390mm rotors, as mentioned.
Seems we have lots of trade offs with this car, unless we drop significant weight.
Last edited by MBNRG; 05-30-2018 at 05:09 PM.
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05-30-2018, 06:37 PM
#174
I'm still shocked that many consider this car for track duty. I've driven my fair share of cars on track (some meant for it, others not) and after driving this car, I wasn't too impressed. Yes it'll get the job done, but its so damn heavy (I am biaised, I have an S2000 track car; 2400lbs). A car this heavy goes through consumables so fast. Not to mention the cooling issues. This is an autobahn car / highway cruiser. For track purposes, ///M cars are the way to go. Dont get my wrong, the C63 is one of the best daily driver but by no means a car meant to see track duty. Keep in mind that I like to do 30-40mins full tilt, not 2-3 laps at 7/10 and then a cool down. Its just not a car suited for my track-driving style.
Not sure I can agree with the above statement of running NT-05s as dedicated track tires but then again, I have not done a lot of research in terms of whats available in this segment.
Not sure I can agree with the above statement of running NT-05s as dedicated track tires but then again, I have not done a lot of research in terms of whats available in this segment.
05-30-2018, 07:10 PM
#175
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If you upgrade the C63 properly - with particular focus on cooling, suspension and brakes - the car can be a very capable track toy. For 30-45min sessions easy. I’m preparing it to go into NASA TT2, and I already know for a fact that I’ll be very competitive there (my best lap was ~1sec off the TT2 class winner at VIR and 1sec faster than the fastest S2000 from the TTU class btw).
Last edited by BLKROKT; 05-30-2018 at 07:57 PM.
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