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I'm sure it can be. The chassis is quite good, more than enough power and brakes are fairly sized, the basics are there, just needs upgrading but parts for this car aint cheap. Any car can be quite capable if you throw a lot of money into it. I just think there are better bases to start with if a track car is part of the car's future. Take a look at what happened with your tires. That would probably not happen with a car under 3200lbs.
As long as your having fun, that's what counts.
Maybe if you'd turn ESP off, you'll get that 1sec lol
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
Originally Posted by gtracer
I'm sure it can be. The chassis is quite good, more than enough power and brakes are fairly sized, the basics are there, just needs upgrading but parts for this car aint cheap. Any car can be quite capable if you throw a lot of money into it. I just think there are better bases to start with if a track car is part of the car's future. Take a look at what happened with your tires. That would probably not happen with a car under 3200lbs.
As long as your having fun, that's what counts.
Maybe if you'd turn ESP off, you'll get that 1sec lol
Jim I was thinking about your tires this morning so I decided to find a video that might help in this problem. You cannot have this happen again because the next time might be BAD. Get a camera on your tires if possible to see what happens.
I want to see what your tires do. Temp of track/day tire pressure also should be included. This video would be a huge help in fixing your potential issue.
Load index of 98y 1653lbs per tire. 100y 1764lbs to 109y would be best.
I can't find tyres here with such a high load rating.
I can get 235/35R19 for the front with a 91 rating. Either Toyo R888R, Michelin Sports 4s or Cup 2.
For the rear, in a 265/30R19, the best I can find is the Michelin Cup 2, which have a rating of 93.
The standard load rating for the car is 91 all around.
I can't find tyres here with such a high load rating.
I can get 235/35R19 for the front with a 91 rating. Either Toyo R888R, Michelin Sports 4s or Cup 2.
For the rear, in a 265/30R19, the best I can find is the Michelin Cup 2, which have a rating of 93.
The standard load rating for the car is 91 all around.
Yeah with racing season and spring track days people probably grabbed them up. I can't find them anywhere either. The Toyo R888R is a good tire if your car is 3200lbs and under. But it's no good for a 3500lb car and up. Cup 2's or Porsche spec Trofeo R's are your best bet, but would go 245 front. I am running 265 35 19 98Y NO Porsche spec.
Yeah with racing season and spring track days people probably grabbed them up. I can't find them anywhere either. The Toyo R888R is a good tire if your car is 3200lbs and under. But it's no good for a 3500lb car and up. Cup 2's or Porsche spec Trofeo R's are your best bet, but would go 245 front. I am running 265 35 19 98Y NO Porsche spec.
Thanks.
Ok, I had a look and the Cup 2 245/35R19 tyres have a 93 load rating, so getting better.
I assume the 245 fits on the stock rim with no issues, and no rubbing.
This is the tire you want for the rear. https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=P+Zero+Trofeo +R&sidewall=Blackwall&partnum=635YR9P0TRXLN0&tab=S izes
I don't know what rims you have, I take it stock 507 wheels? I would think the 245 and 265 should work fine but not exactly sure the width of those rims. I don't see a 98y spec front tire right now. I would try and match them up if you can. But if you need them now, get the Mclaren P1 spec with the 6/32 tread depth. It will match the Porsche tread depth at 6/32. Normal Trofeo R tires are only 5/32. In fact after checking again, they only have the P1 spec tire right now, just 2 links for it. Not sure why that is. Also get these heat cycled.
P.S I just called tirerack and they no longer carry anything other than a 93Y for the 245 35 19 tire for the Trofeo R. No more 98Y for that size. I would like to get a camera on that tire during cornering to see if the deflection is ok on a 93Y. Typically it's a higher PSI tire so it should be ok. It's just on the border there.
Now that I relook at everything. The Sport cup 2's might be the ticket as far as weight load, but you would have to go to a 255 in the front and 275 in the rear. The Trofeo R runs wide, but the Cup2's at 255 is 0.4 of an inch wider in the front than a Trofeo R's 245, and I have no issues running the 245 Trofeos in the front. Has anyone run the 255 cup 2s in the front other than Jim? 275's should fit in the rear. But your rims may be a factor as they call for a 9 inch and 11 inch for a 255 to 275 Cup 2.
My question for Jim is, you were running 46psi in the tires, I see that the Cup 2 is a 50psi tire. Was that tire pressure hot or cold when you took the reading?
Sorry to beat this thread to death, just thinking out loud to figure out a perfect tire and setting and wheel combo.
2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Maz, it’s pretty simple. We know what’s happening to the tire, camera not necessary. There is only one course of action.
1. Get wider track-dedicated rims. 10” front and 12” rear
2. Get proper load rated PSC2 N0/MO1 tires. 265/35 front (98Y) and 305/30 rear (102Y)
3. Cut fenders. Put on wider ones (LW or OEM BS).
4. Forget the trailer hitch idea. Build roof rack to carry wheels.
Maz, it’s pretty simple. We know what’s happening to the tire, camera not necessary. There is only one course of action.
1. Get wider track-dedicated rims. 10” front and 12” rear
2. Get proper load rated PSC2 N0/MO1 tires. 265/35 front (98Y) and 305/30 rear (102Y)
3. Cut fenders. Put on wider ones (LW or OEM BS).
4. Forget the trailer hitch idea. Build roof rack to carry wheels.
Well yeah, that will do the trick.
Would make for a fun project.
2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Originally Posted by Mazspeed
Now that I relook at everything. The Sport cup 2's might be the ticket as far as weight load, but you would have to go to a 255 in the front and 275 in the rear. The Trofeo R runs wide, but the Cup2's at 255 is 0.4 of an inch wider in the front than a Trofeo R's 245, and I have no issues running the 245 Trofeos in the front. Has anyone run the 255 cup 2s in the front other than Jim? 275's should fit in the rear. But your rims may be a factor as they call for a 9 inch and 11 inch for a 255 to 275 Cup 2.
My question for Jim is, you were running 46psi in the tires, I see that the Cup 2 is a 50psi tire. Was that tire pressure hot or cold when you took the reading?
Sorry to beat this thread to death, just thinking out loud to figure out a perfect tire and setting and wheel combo.
Maz, see above bud. I’m already on 255/35 front and 295/30 rear. You’re mixing up the weight ratings front rear. The problem is that the front rim - and probably the rear too - are too narrow at 8.5” front and 10” rear to properly support the tire sidewall at the optimal tire pressure for grip the way I have the car setup (~41psi hot). The sidewall is too soft and rolling over the rim in high-g turns which is then actually cutting into the sidewall (pressure too low, weight rating too low, tire flexing/rolling).
The way I’m offsetting this temporarily is to strengthen the support by running 5 more psi hot @ 46psi hot. This is sub-optimal for grip, the tires are getting too hot and I’m near the top of the range, but at least the car weight is better supported and the sidewall doesn’t have to bear the full brunt.
The only solutions are to either:
a) Stop driving the car so hard on track. Unlikely.
b) Go to an 18” rim with a bigger sidewall tire with sufficient weight rating, but with my BBK that’s not possible. I’m not giving up those brakes.
c) The only real solution is to go wider on the rim and get tires with more than enough weight rating and either N0 or MO1 in 19”. Wider rim will put less stress on the sidewalls and less chance of rolling as the loads are distributed over a wider area. And I can drop the pressures back to where I have optimal grip again. Wider tires have more air = more support = better weight rating.
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
All other things being equal, the heavier the car and/or the sticker the tire, the wider the rim sizes you need to properly support the tire carcass without rolling.
When you're looking at tire specs, for every tire you'll see an approved rim width range, and again, on heavy car like the C63 you need to be at the maximum width. For example, the 245/35ZR19 Trofeo R requires a rim width of 8.5" - 9.5". On a Lotus Elise or a Mazda Miata you may be able to use an 8.5" rim, but on a C63 you will need a 9.5" wide rim... that is for the FRONT rim with a 245 tire. The stock 19x8 and 19x9 rims are much too narrow for this car to be used with anything but OEM sized STREET tires with a ~300 treadwear rating... you can't use the factory 19" rims with grippier track tires because you can't get any tires in the proper size and load rating.
2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Sunday project. Need more front aero. This probably won’t be to everyone’s liking. Dive plane prototypes roughly based on the Camaro ZL1 1LE. mocked up and test fit. This was out of 3/16” ABS plastic, should probably go to 1/4” for the final version.
2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Nope. I’ll go out to the track to test out. If I like how they feel, they’ll stay. If not, will remove. I didn’t have a wind tunnel for the rear wing either, and I know that works and I know what the adjustments feel like. Same with these - I’ve got my wide front tires sticking out into the wind, and a bit more understeer now with the wing, so I figured they’ll do something. We’ll see at Summit Point later this month. Will be adding a big front splitter later this summer too.
What times were you running at VIR? And how were the oil temps vs air temps? Last time there on the full course... I was runnings low 2:20s - hitting 275° Oil temps...
2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Originally Posted by Duffer4126
What times were you running at VIR? And how were the oil temps vs air temps? Last time there on the full course... I was runnings low 2:20s - hitting 275° Oil temps...
Best of 2:05.79 on the Full course at HyperFest last month when I hit everything just right without traffic. Most laps around 2:08-2:10. Oil temps are great since I put in the 44O kit. High of 260 on a 94 degree day and beating on it. Normally stays in the low 250’s.
2:05s - Great time for any car non full race build.... I’m running a stock 507 except for brakes... but i’m coasting before the ‘5’ markers on the straights to keep the temps down... no threshold braking for me most laps... yea I need the 440 kit... I added the block off plate for oil cooling, new wheels and tires for three days at VIR July 27th - 29th
Tore the car down and am redoing everything except the engine. First step was to get the RSR Studio rollcage in along with Schroth 6-point harnesses and Sparco Evo II seats. Also installed my Voltphreaks battery and stripped out much of the interior from the doors back. All-in, as she sits now it’s probably 200lbs lighter than the 3900lbs she weighed last year.
Part of the reason this is taking so long is that I’ve found a lot of damaged components from 4 years of track abuse. Every time I take something off, I find something broken or about to go. So we’re making this bulletproof and here’s some progress.
- new front hubs
- refinished wheels
- Hella horns
- new RacingBrake front rotors
- new Motorsports Hardware wheel studs
- new Ozmo titanium lug nuts
- SDS front thrust arms (existing bushing frozen, going to make removal/install someone else’s problem)
- and a thousand different bolts and other hardware that I wanted to replace
Something important to point out for anyone tracking their car. Although I didn’t notice any degradation in braking, my front calipers were COOKED. Every dust boot was cracked, ripped or melted, and some grit made its way into 3 of the cylinders and scored the sides. I’ve taken my calipers off the car and am rebuilding with the RacingBrake kit which includes stainless pistons, new oil seals and high-temp blue silicone dust boots. I’ve stripped them down and repainted, still need to clear, then the rebuilding begins. Zeckhausen Racing also came to the rescue with all new caliper hardware and bleeders.
I also noticed that my RacingBrake stainless steel braided brake lines were all totally rusted out at the fittings. Stay away from “zinc plated fittings” because they’re garbage, should have gotten stainless. So those are all gone and being replaced by custom Goodridge UK lines with stainless fittings.
Got my dust shields welded up with ducts, so start routing them this weekend. Will be removing secondary air injection system to do that. Should be fun.
Will be updating regularly as I near the finish line here. Car is going to be completely different, can’t wait.
Will post pics shortly, site won’t let me upload. Will also go through the caliper disassembly and rebuild process.
2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
New dust shields with 3” hose adapters welded on for silicone ducts (below)
New RacingBrake BBK front rings torqued to the existing hats with new hardware, SDW thrust arms and HardBrakes Ti shims along with new caliper hardware
New hubs and studs
Ozmo Engineering Ti lug nuts
Cooked caliper
Close up of destroyed dust boots
More. Notice that my stock red P31 calipers have the hats on the pistons like the silver ones. They shouldn’t. Odd.
Every dust boot, all 12, were bad. Here’s a piston. 2 of these were gouged too. These are easy to pull out by hand, no compressed air needed.
Gouged cylinder walls. I had to polish these out although the piston rides in the oil seals so probably unnecessary.
New paint on top with decal. Used VHT Real Red. 3 coats with wet sanding between with a ScotchBrite pad. Needs to be cleared next. Probably a bit darker than OE but whatever they look sharp compared to before.
Silicone 3” high temp brake duct from Pegasus Racing. Will remove the secondary air injection and cut up some blockoff plates from aluminum stock for the intake ports.
2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Here’s a list of what’s left.
1. Repaint calipers and clear with new AMG stickers. Rebuild brake calipers with new RB components, hardware and new bleeders.
2. Get thrust arm bolts out. Install SDW front thrust arms. New arm and strut hardware from ECS. (bolt is crazy seized in the KMAC bushing so I said fck it and it’ll be someone else’s problem once the car is out)
3. Install new dust shields, front hubs and wheel studs with new hardware.
3a. New Tarett caliper studs and nuts: https://www.tarett.com/items/996-997-991-products/996-997-991-engine~trans~brakes~electrical/brake-caliper-stud-kit-bcsk-detail.htm
4. Front brake pads Carbotech XP12, Ti shims and brake fluid twice full flush.
5. Change rear diff oil
6. Remove secondary air injection hoses pump etc. Fab up intake manifold blockoff plates from aluminum stock.
7. Install Revotec air intake on grill mesh. Route front brake ducts to new dust shields. Cut fender liner hole and trim excess. Might just toss the liners as they’re 6lbs each and I’m rubbing through them anyway. Removing the liners will probably allow me to run 12” rims in back and maybe 10” front. Reinstall 996 GT3 Cup air guides on LCAs.
8. Install new MAP sensor in intake manifold
9. New headlights to go in (finish film, Optilens and ground first). Install second ground (brown) wire.
10. Install LifeLine LED Rain Light behind rear diffuser grill and Sparco tow strap for rear
11. New tie rod ends (ordered - will install with SDW arms before alignment)
12. KMAC subframe bushings (ordered - someone else with a lift can deal with the install)
14. Raise KW ride height (measure then add 2”) - can’t even get my car out of the garage until this is done which is a real pain in the dïck. Had to buy the Mercedes spring compressor tool for the rear. Look into moving spring perch from chassis cup to LCA to make adjustments easier. (https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w204/754051-extended-rear-spring-perch-coilovers.html)
That should get the car out of the garage
15. Find someone to weld on and hang Magnaflows. 3” from resonators back, hang mufflers right under diffuser. Notch/dent trunk spare tire area as needed. Right now there are no mufflers and the car sounds crazy loud like a diesel truck. My neighbors hate me.
16. Get the SDW arms and KMAC subframe bushings installed
17. Get car aligned and corner balanced.
18. Have someone go over the entire car to make sure I didn’t *** something up.
List to be revised as I find more stuff. It was twice as long until a couple weeks ago.
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
Nicely done Sir Jim! Yes, the calipers do suffer from the heat, and even with the RB rotors enough heat gets transferred to the hat and wheels that I managed to cook the paint on the centers on my CCWs after a couple of track days earlier this year. Am particularly interested to find out how are you going to route the brake cooling ducts... that would be a worthwhile upgrade on mine that only sees occasional track duty.
05-30-2018, 08:57 PM
lol
