mr747

This makes sense if you are running a stock tune and your throttle bodies are opening up 75% then thats correct with a tune they will open up to a max of 88%

If you are down 10 degress timing and 13% throttle makes total sense why you are losing 70hp

Its very possible mate

Why dont you go see MSL? or go get a tune from Kleeman

You have alot of patience mate

Celicasaur

Part of my wonders if I've somehow got a stock C63 file on my car, but then I think I read somewhere that the C63 opens around 65% before a tune or PP option. I'd have thought being an E, it should open to 88% regardless of a tune. I think to rule out any doubt, I need to get a guy to come and log my car with a Mercedes Xentry tool and do some full throttle pulls. However supposedly the Xentry at full throttle will show 78%, whereas aftermarket tools show 88%.

MSL are really far from me (100 miles), hence why I'm going the slow route to diagnosing the issue. I appreciate your wisdom buddy I'll update once I've managed to get another more conclusive scan carried out.

chrisridebike8

100 miles for a day on the dyno is nothing. Thats maybe 2 hrs drive on a freeway. You went through all the trouble of putting in cams and now you are being lazy with the tuning? Just go do it right

Celicasaur

For what it's worth, the car had a eurocharged custom tune applied with the cam install.

This is more a case of trying to find out what the legacy issue has been with my car, rather than just getting another tune for the sake of it. For all intents and purposes, I'm sure MSL would use the same V5 or V6 tune that my car once had before, however - regardless of the outcome they'll still want their money after the tuning session won't they?

Hence, this is why I'm trying to be methodical about finding out specifically what the issue is, before shooting in the dark for a possible solution.

BLKROKT

From what I can tell, all you've been doing is "shooting in the dark". I mean, no offense meant here because I know how much it sucks to have irritating car issues like this, but between this thread and any of the multiple others talking about the same thing, people have given you a multitude of things to try checking or replacing in order to be organized and systematic about tracking down your issue (see post #15 above for example). To date, it doesn't seem like you've done any of it, and instead just continue to theorize about the same thing over and over again (TB). I think the best advice that was given was to turn your car back to stock, including removal of the crazy cams, and start over again, first getting your car in perfect running order stock and then adding things and checking as you go.

But that costs money. And apparently you don't want to spend money. So you're just going to have a broken car and keep lamenting that it's down on power and throwing up another idea on what it might be every week or so without actually solving anything. You're not being methodical. Being methodical would be stripping the car down to stock and starting from a clean slate once you make sure the car is running perfectly.

You posted this thread with the purpose of helping people "come out of the woodwork", like there's some secret problem nobody's talking about. Well nobody responded. This isn't some massive model-wide problem, it's just your car because you haven't taken the necessary steps to resolve whatever the issue is - whether caused by the aftermarket parts or not.

You want it fixed? Do it right. Or just live with it. Because without someone here working on your car, and without data or dyno charts, and without codes, and without real data logging (iPhone photos of your speedo or whatever doesn't count), and without symptoms other than 'down on power', what else do you think anyone can really do for you? It's just throwing darts. You need someone to actually dig in there and get their hands dirty, not theorize on a forum.

Seriously, I'm not being cranky here man. But do yourself a favor and either bring it to someone who knows what they're doing, or strip all the aftermarket stuff off and then systematically add back on until you get to a happy place. All of this theorizing on an Internet forum has gotten you absolutely nowhere.

And I don't mean any of that with disrespect or anything, I want you to get this resolved. It sucks, I get it. It's just that I think you're approaching the whole thing incorrectly, and in the long run you'll save yourself from a lot more time and frustration by just starting over.

Vladds

You can log the throttle opening without xentry, I used the innovate Ap.
You need to have some kind of OBD2 logging capabilities, it's an essential tool there days.


As far as Xentry logging, I just got mine to work, I will take a look at what it reports vs what the innovate reports for throttle opening.


But I agree that you should get the car running as it should, before adding mods, troubleshooting can be difficult otherwise.

Celicasaur

Fair play man. Here's a genuine response below as I guess on the forum it looks like I'm just going on about the throttle bodies, but there's been other work done, so for the record here it is:

• VVT camgears checked for correct operating range by Eurocharged
• Throttle body opening checked by Eurocharged (but sadly not with the engine running as it was raining outside and wouldn't have been safe etc)
• Mercedes software update including removal of the Eurocharged tune
• Intake manifold removed and inspected for any damage to the intake flaps on the inside + new M159 intake gaskets
• PCV valve replaced at the advice of Eurcharged because it got clogged on a customer car and was worth ~40hp once replaced
• Re-dyno'd at 465hp crank

It got to the point where me and the guy at Eurocharged UK were staring at the car and the only thing he could suggest was to consider more severe issues such as lack of compression etc because he's all out of ideas. It's not like I haven't been taking my car to an expert, man. And if he's stumped....then naturally I'm going to try and work it out for myself with the help of the MBWorld community. The compression theory doesn't make sense because if the car was down on compression by that much to cause such a big power loss, it would be running like garbage and really rough, smoking etc

Also...you guys have asked for me to post the dyno on numerous occasions - yep, that's true. I've spoken on the phone with the guy at Eurocharged UK and emailed him a few times to remind him, but there's only so much I can pester the poor guy. If he isn't sending me the dyno graph....there's not a lot I can do about it

On the last dyno that I had done, he overlaid my dyno plot with the C63 that has the cams and the shape of the curve for both cars was identical, albeit mine was around 70hp vertically lower down from 2000rpm all the way to fuel cut. It was based off this that we thought it's as though the car isn't being run at full throttle. He said to me that it's not an easy thing to investigate via the ecu maps because there are 200+ different tables and it could be any one of them that's making the car hold back.

I have spoken at length many times with Kleemann (and even almost drove all the way to Denmark, but changed my mind at the last minute) and he suggested to verify full throttle with the car under load as he's experienced it before on C63's. He also said not to rule out something as bizarre as collapsed cats because he's seen that also. He said to get the ignition timing logged as it should be at least 24 degrees at high rpm. Lastly, he advised to replace the o2 sensors because at my mileage (85k) it's possible for them to be untrue. I haven't replaced them yet because I'd like something more concrete to go on, or at least have ruled out the obvious issue of the throttles not opening fully.

And lastly going back to the suggestion of removing the cams. If I had gotten my car back and it was significantly slower, I'd have known there was a major problem with the cams right away and I'd have probably had them removed there and then. The fact of the matter is, my car came back the same from the install and tune. I was disappointed, but it wasn't slower....just wasn't anything special to justify the work carried out. The car was always a bit lacklustre in terms of power, but I just put it down to it being 'a heavy E63'. It's only since the install that I've had the car dyno'd, been in various C63's and my friends C63 with the cams to know just what the M156 is like when it's on song. I've not removed the cams because I know they can work and they work very well. besides, if the cams really was the problem, the power of the motor under 5000rpm surely wouldn't be down by exactly the same amount as the top end would it? You know as well as I do that's not how a bad cam profile would affect the power output.

With all that being said ^ I'm going to email Jerry and ask if the V6 tune can be flashed to my car from MSL and I'll pay MSL for their time to dyno my car and have a look to see if these throttle bodies really are opening fully once and for all. I do want this sorted, but time is never on my side and I don't like the idea of giving my car to a workshop for weeks on end in order to solve the problem as it's my favourite car to drive. I understand your frustration as a fellow enthusiast, but I appreciate your advice/help nevertheless because you and many others know more about the platform than I do and it'll probably be via wisdom from one of you guys that gets this thing working as it should


And just lastly....I've had a guy from the UK email me randomly via the UK MB forum and his car is a C63 with Eurocharged tune and fully decatted exhaust. It made 560hp last year. This year it's making a whisker above 500 and he hasn't a clue what's wrong. He isn't running Kleemann cams. Hence the reason for me making this thread for all M156's in general because I think it's a rare but unsolved problem for the motor.

Thanks man. I've ordered a bluetooth OBD2 thingy from ebay which should enabled me to sync the car to my phone. However, as mentioned above, I may well just go and see my sister in Birmingham over xmas and drop by at MSL to get my car logged on their dyno.

I'll be interested to still know though what Xentry shows as full throttle on your car vs the Innovate app.

Celicasaur

For the purpose of updating this thread and M156's in general down on power...

I spoke to MSL this morning. They did a W211 E63 recently. Stock was ~450hp...after decat and tune it was ~510hp. Typically this ends up being 560hp on most C63s.

There's definitely something, but we don't know what it is.

BLKROKT

Does your VIN end in a multiple of 23? Every 23rd car off the line had a crank imbalance that caused a ~40hp deficit, but Mercedes hid the report and killed anyone who worked on those cars so nobody would ever know. I bet that's it.

kimeran

I think this is when you apologize for being a k*ob and let the OP carry on with his discussion?

Celicasaur

I'm not sure what I've done to make you take needless jabs at me, but regardless of what you think of me - for the sake of the forum and in the hope that this thread might actually help someone in the future, I'm going to ask for you to kindly not troll this thread. Please...don't.

Mag1c Carp3t

So on a stock tune the car is not down on power?

hachiroku

most people here do not have aftermarket camshafts...is your tune built for the "camshafts". Cams dollar per hp is totally not worth it for the M156...i'd rather supercharge. Also you'd generally do headers before the cams.

if your tune is a general tune, and not specific to the camshafts, you will have major run issues as you'll run lean.

Celicasaur

No, no...on a stock tune the car is down on power and even after a tune and decat it's still down on power. No kleemann cams to blame on this one.

And it's not like it's a case of somebody going to a dyno that reads differently. The same dyno shows the expected figures for most C63's when they go there and have the usual tune + headers or tune + decat combo.

That's nothing more than an internet urban legend tbh. True for ancient cars that run off carbs, but on our modern engines with maf and o2 sensors....the the 20 or so hp that you would gain from cams is perfectly manageable by the stock tune. I remember when people said that the motor would blow up on my 2zz when i ran 12.3:1 pistons and stage 3 cams via the stock ecu...it ran just fine. My E63 is currently on the stock MB tune and on the last dyno session, the AFR was checked at Eurcharged - the operator was happy with it. All that happens is the extra airflow gets logged by the maf in a similar way to how it would do if the air temp dropped by 20 degree's or so on a stock motor (crude example for illustration) and then the ecu will pick the necessary fuel data from the map.

Vladds

So the person that looked at your car with the Xentry seems to give you ..... Different .... Information.
1. Xentry does not record logging data. So the person driving the car out (you were told can't be done cause of rain) to tell you the throttle opening angle under load, using this particular test rig , would not be able to do much with it.
When you think about it, Xentry was not designed so that the end user can explore what has been done with the tune of the car and how the tune works. But it can test if the throttle electronics work as designed.

2. Xentry has two sets of live data feeds. Idle and full load. The only parameter shown in the full load is knock control. So in idle all the throttle parameters are shown. To test what the throttle is doing, you need a driver and a Xentry operator and you need to use the idle parameter section while underway.

3. Now I'm curios what they told you about the adjusters.
Did this person seem to have the engine of your car on and held by him revved before he told you that the adjusters are ok? Or did he just have your car off clicked in the section and concluded that they're fine, because there's no code?

As far as what Xentry shows, it shows the angle of the throttle plate front and rear.

What happens is standard testers read standard obd2 parameters. In addition, every car has proprietary ones. In this case, I think the angle is proprietary and the generic does not read it.

The tuning shops probably discuss throttle in terms of angle and the "common people", discuss throttle percentages. This is probably why there is confusion.

When I talked to Renntech, their first question was "what's your throttle opening angle?", which I obviously could not answer at that time.

Celicasaur

Yes this is true. While not entirely concrete, my friend had to keep an eye on the screen when I went full throttle. We did several pulls in high gears though and he was confident with the numbers that he reported back. Hopefully next week I'll be able to rule this out by getting the throttle opening logged safely on a dyno via Xentry to rule out any doubt (doubt of aftermarket % expression vs oem tools)

I don't understand what that means, but thank you - I'll mention it to the dyno operator next week. From what I remember, the voltage at the closed end of the throttle body is ~4.35v and when it hits full throttle at high rpm, it should show ~4.35v (there's a metal strip inside each of the throttle bodies that has a fine pin scrape against it in tandem with the throttle plate opening over the course of it's ~80% angle range)

Here's one of the pics of the tool in action above 6000rpm. Yes, not sure how conclusive it is. The signal 1 and signal 2 accelerator pedal sensors are full pedal movements to full throttle without kick down and then with kick down. Either way, it seemed happy that at least the pedal was at 100% from inside the cabin of the car.



I think he simply looked at the range at idle and confirmed them to be ok. He said that if they're way out of sync (ie, a bad install) it should show up right away. I'm aware that this isn't conclusive though and doesn't prove they're getting to the correct angles at all rpm. He gave it a bit of a static rev and said the numbers appear to be ok.

I suppose this is the grey area about the iCarsoft i980 tool that was used. We don't know for sure if the angle is absolute or relative. If what you're saying is true, then the 78% shown for my car would explain it (ignoring the picture above).





But yeah, as mentioned above, I'll take mr747's advice and go n see MSL next week, pending a Tuesday slot and if I can get the day off work. I've explained the situation and said that I'd like them to dyno my car as it is and overlay it vs a strong N/A C63 with around 560hp. I've explained that I'd like to have the throttle opening logged once and for all. I also will ask if they can verify the peak maf and o2 sensor voltage against a stock car, to see if one of my sensors are failing. I'll get them to check ignition advance values too.

Lastly, I've paid the upgrade fee for the latest Eurocharged V6 tune, so we'll have the tune applied also to see if it makes any difference.

Vladds

The Dyno rig has its own obd2 and external sensors capabilities.
So he will get the info that you need.

As far as xentry, it has a dedicated test routine for the solenoids and the cam adjusters.

If the operator was to not use the dyno rig to look at your parameters, but use the dealer xentry rig to put the car through a battery of tests, then the test for the adjusters mainly looks like this:
On the test screen you have to wait till the coolant temperature reaches 80 Celsius, which unlocks the testing procedure.
Then you rev the engine in idle to between 2700-3100 (or so) RPM. Then you keep the rpm in this range in neutral.
Then you click the "actuate" button.
There is a green range of cam angles and a live reading.
If the live reading cannot be in the green range, then you need to replace the solenoid of the adjuster.
The question that I am trying to answer is if the adjuster is lazy and it does eventually take the angle in range, whether that means to replace the adjuster and leave the solenoid alone.

Since the solenoid does work, there is no code thrown.
Without the xentry rig, the dyno rig can probably not perform this operational test.

Celicasaur

Great info ^^^ I'll be sure to ask the guy at MSL about doing this test.

Regarding the issue of a lazy adjuster, I don't think it would be slow enough for us to still notice the readings any slower. VVT changes on engines are pretty much instantaneous in general. I do wonder though, if a camgear is rattling on cold start and leaking oil, could the seals inside the big solenoid not be replaced, much like how they do with the S62 BMW E39 M5 motor? I can't remember what this car looks like under the hood, but I remember seeing a very similar system...I think.

C3Duece

Celicasaur

I spoke with the chief at MSL again today and he advised that while he can perform the test on the camgears, he offered a word of warning that if something is actually wrong with them, performing the test could knock them way out of sync and cause all manner of other issues.

Out of interest, does anybody know what the maf voltages should be (at WOT) for a healthy C63 with around 500hp (crank)? I figure while I'm there, I might well check the maf voltages across the range (if he can even do that with his tools) and compare. If my maf voltage is lower than normal, it will be useful to know.

Similarly, if healthy O2 sensor readings are known, please share them.

Booked in for dyno and attempting to diagnose the issue tomorrow. Will also have the V6 Eurocharged tune applied.

Vladds

I think the maf voltages could be in the xentry live parameters.
As far as the test.
Once the test is completed, as a result you will have 4 unexpected cam position codes.
Once you clear those, you will need to do a teach in of the cams, all done with the xentry and almost part of the test.

And yes, they get knocked out of position, it is not instantaneous and in the end of the day you have an idea whether they're lazy, going way out of bounds at first, then catching up, or not.
Which in turn may give you a clue whether they should be changed or not.
If they do need changing and you change them, this going out of bounds business, then catching up, will end and being "on the cam", as opposed to behind with the cam timing, may have an effect.
I would not relay upon information that pertains to BMW vanos, to know what the m156 adjusters will do.

Edit: I think I understand what the guy meant. In the case of an OEM cam, the valves won't hit, even if the cam lags behind as revealed by the test.
But with your cams, all bets could be off.

Celicasaur

Thanks Vladds. In the end I decided not to have the camgear adaptations reset because they said that if it does cause an issue, I'm quite far from home and it wouldn't be worth the hassle. I agreed. What they did do was do a test at idle via xentry and they seemed within the correct operating range (the one I saw was 27 degree's on an intake cam and the permissible range was 26 to 30). I asked about the special test that you mentioned and they said they weren't aware of it and they would only be able to reset the calibration.

Regarding MAF voltages, they weren't able to show me directly, but they were kind enough to send me the logs of some data pulls. I'll need to extract the data and compare maf voltages with somebody here perhaps.

So. Some numbers. untuned, the car was at 403whp. V5 tune was at 412whp and V6 tune was 416whp.



To Jerry's credit, he tried very hard to eek out what he could and he sent over quite a few revisions to the tune, which ended up with the best result being 421whp. With a correction factor of 18%, that puts it at 496hp. Seems like the AFR was leaned out nicely to within safe limits....looks like 12.9:1. The blue line is a C63 that they had a few days ago with Evolve headers and V5 tune ~460whp. The red one is my baseline from when I arrived today.



I'm guessing the throttle mystery can be laid to rest now, because Jerry would have solved that or at least mentioned if it wasn't opening correctly.

All of the guys were stumped, but one thing that everyone kept saying was how quiet my car was. I asked if it was because the E class is quieter/more refined than a C, but they insisted that an E class should be considerably louder than what mine was. Two of the techs put their hands by my tailpipes when idling and said that usually on a C class, the pulses are hard felt and super hot...mine apparently isn't. Not sure how much truth there is in that, but I'm just relaying what I was told. They also commented on the lack of pops n bangs that should have been happening on the dyno. But I wasn't concerned with those.

I was asked to give Jerry a call when I got home, but I've just got home and it's too late now. I'll have a chat with him tomorrow about next steps. I think I need to make a call on either getting my DPE headers fitted, or opting for the cheap n easy decat option to see if it at least makes a big enough difference to justify getting the nice headers fitted.

Well, at least it looks pretty in it's slow state





Thoughts on the tune - sure it's a little nicer to drive and a bit more responsive. I like the improvement on light throttle inputs. Full throttle....yeah slightly better and nicer, but nothing to write home about. Mind you, I only went full throttle a few times in my local area, so maybe I'll have a better play tomorrow.

thesaintusa

Are your cats clogged? Obviously not completely clogged.

If it sounds quieter and is down on power perhaps something simple like that?

Back in the day when I was daily driving my RX-7, this issue you describe sounds like a car with bad cats.

Celicasaur

It's entirely possible ^ I had Wiestec and Kleemann analyse the logs and they're suggesting the cats too along with a couple of good C63 experts.

I'll try and get the headers fitted next week, pending MSL's capacity and if Jerry is available to adjust the tune (last thing I want is to run overly lean after removing the cats etc)

thesaintusa

Reading the thread for the first time, this is what I would think as a problem, especially if the car otherwise runs fine.

Might be a good idea to sort out why you are 'down' on power instead of adding headers to the mix (although they would remove your primaries for that).

Alternatively, as you car gets amazing gas mileage, perhaps instead of limp mode, your car is in super economy mode without you knowing it.