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-   -   E85 fuel in an AMG? (https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w204/644451-e85-fuel-amg.html)

stratman 11-20-2016 05:03 PM

E85 fuel in an AMG?
 
I was lurking on the Club Lexus site for the ISF and there is a thread where members have used a blend of E85 and premium fuels. Those that have done this say that they get better fuel mileage as well as power across the board due to timing advance. Now as I recall the manual stated to never use greater than 10% ethanol and never use methanol. Given that ethanol is not as efficient at producing energy as gasoline I'm not sure that this is true.

So my question: Has anyone tried this in their C63 and if so what were the results?

chrisridebike8 11-20-2016 05:09 PM

Eurocharged just released their ethanol setup. It requires some hardware as well as some software but is said to give about 40-50 whp. Stock setup...the car won't run or might even be damaged.

looney100 11-20-2016 07:48 PM

+1

Mercedes cars are not built to handle more than 10% ethanol. Exceeding this can cause trouble with the fuel system.
A stock tune will not do anything to take advantage of the higher octane.

Diabolis 11-21-2016 05:12 PM

Aside from the valid concerns stated above, Ethanol has 25% less energy per unit mass than gasoline, so an E85 blend will deliver only 85% of the energy that gasoline does - which means that in order to produce the same power, you'll end up using 20-25% *more* E85 than gas. That is a decrease in fuel economy, not an improvment. If you're now getting, say, 200 miles per tank of gas on average, all other things being equal you'd only get 150 miles on E85.

stratman 11-21-2016 05:30 PM

Thanks for the replies. As Diabolis has confirmed, the ISF crew using this blend should not see more power or better fuel mileage but could very well damage their engines as ethanol is corrosive to some of the engine parts including the fuel injectors. Hope nothing bad come of it for their sakes as those engines are about $25k for a new one.

compaddict 11-21-2016 05:37 PM

E85 makes much more HP as long as you tune and have the pump/injector capacity.
And our fuel systems have been 100 percent safe for Ethanol for many, many years.

Diabolis 11-21-2016 05:42 PM

An old but still valid and fairly concise article on E85 vs. gas:

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-...ernative-fuel/

compaddict 11-21-2016 06:00 PM

I used to use Q16 race fuel at 16.00-18.00 a gallon..
E85 makes the same power for 2.00 a gallon.
Crazy stuff.

Diabolis 11-21-2016 06:03 PM


Originally Posted by compaddict (Post 6975419)
E85 makes much more HP as long as you tune and have the pump/injector capacity.
And our fuel systems have been 100 percent safe for Ethanol for many, many years.

Assuming that the engine design allows for it, you could *maybe* get a 4% power increase with E85 over gas assuming that you make all the right changes. I don't know that I'd call 4% much more, but it is an increase. As for our fuel systems being 100% safe, that's 100% safe with a 10% Ethanol conent, not 85% Ethanol content. Our existing fuel pump and injectors can't deliver 25% more fuel, which you'd need just to get the SAME power out of E85. There are may variables at play.

compaddict 11-21-2016 06:16 PM

Been there done that (and thought that way). Got three empty 54 gallon drums of Q16 to show for it.
E85 is magic. You can really extend your IG ADV with this stuff. Much more than 116 octane. Prolly due to the cooling effect of using so much of it!
Twenty-ish percent more power in a Miata 1800cc NA engine.

Diabolis 11-21-2016 07:03 PM

Q16 is an oxygenated race fuel, so you're already getting 5-10% more power vs. say, C16... and yes, you can definitely advance the timing a LOT. :) And, you're 100% correct about the cooling effect - Ethanol has much greater latent heat of vaporization than gas, which basically super-cools the intake charge and thus increases the air density (like in water-alcohol injection). However, to get the maximum benefit from either Q16 or C16, ideally you'd need a reworked mill with a 14:1 or higher CR, and/or forced induction... the M156 is a NA lump with a 11.3:1 CR, so IMHO there's hardly any point in going the E85 route on a C63 once you take into account the costs of the conversion vs. the potential gains... and with our 66L fuel tanks, you'll be looking for a gas station every 20 minutes. :(

compaddict 11-21-2016 07:05 PM

There is that!

looney100 11-21-2016 10:41 PM


Originally Posted by compaddict (Post 6975419)
E85 makes much more HP as long as you tune and have the pump/injector capacity.
And our fuel systems have been 100 percent safe for Ethanol for many, many years.

I work in the fuel industry - I have an industry document on my other computer that discusses a potential E20 fuel standard (current limit is typically 10%). If I remember correctly, it states that 50% of MY2016 vehicles can handle 20% ethanol, but only 15% of cars on the road can do so, and I recall that it stated that Mercedes explicitly stated not to exceed 10% ethanol for its vehicles.

Will try to remember to post the specifics tomorrow morning.

AMGonFire 11-21-2016 11:21 PM


Originally Posted by Diabolis (Post 6975475)
Q16 is an oxygenated race fuel, so you're already getting 5-10% more power vs. say, C16... and yes, you can definitely advance the timing a LOT. :) And, you're 100% correct about the cooling effect - Ethanol has much greater latent heat of vaporization than gas, which basically super-cools the intake charge and thus increases the air density (like in water-alcohol injection). However, to get the maximum benefit from either Q16 or C16, ideally you'd need a reworked mill with a 14:1 or higher CR, and/or forced induction... the M156 is a NA lump with a 11.3:1 CR, so IMHO there's hardly any point in going the E85 route on a C63 once you take into account the costs of the conversion vs. the potential gains... and with our 66L fuel tanks, you'll be looking for a gas station every 20 minutes. :(


tell me how eurocharged gained additional 30 to 35 wheel over standard 93 octane with their new flex fuel kit nothing else but e85 and the v6 e85 tune that's substantial to me also eurocharged said the stock injectors and pump are good for 550 whp so no change is needed for this

compaddict 11-21-2016 11:42 PM

I have heard or seen that as well.
The thing is our fuel systems are either Ethanol safe or not.
I don't believe there is any leeway for that sort of thing.



Originally Posted by looney100 (Post 6975626)
I work in the fuel industry - I have an industry document on my other computer that discusses a potential E20 fuel standard (current limit is typically 10%). If I remember correctly, it states that 50% of MY2016 vehicles can handle 20% ethanol, but only 15% of cars on the road can do so, and I recall that it stated that Mercedes explicitly stated not to exceed 10% ethanol for its vehicles.

Will try to remember to post the specifics tomorrow morning.


AMGonFire 11-21-2016 11:49 PM


Originally Posted by compaddict (Post 6975666)
I have heard or seen that as well.
The thing is our fuel systems are either Ethanol safe or not.
I don't believe there is any leeway for that sort of thing.


tell me how subaru Mazda bmw performance cars run e85 for thousands and thousands of miles with no issues. Those cars arnt any more or less designed for e85. Those manufacturers also state 10 percent max and they have no issues. Eurocharged has been running e85 on there 2012 c63 with no issues as well. I think we will be fine.

Alex.currie44 11-21-2016 11:54 PM


Originally Posted by stratman (Post 6974434)
I was lurking on the Club Lexus site for the ISF and there is a thread where members have used a blend of E85 and premium fuels. Those that have done this say that they get better fuel mileage as well as power across the board due to timing advance. Now as I recall the manual stated to never use greater than 10% ethanol and never use methanol. Given that ethanol is not as efficient at producing energy as gasoline I'm not sure that this is true.

So my question: Has anyone tried this in their C63 and if so what were the results?

From page 356 of the Canadian manual for 2013 C Class.

"Only refuel using premium-grade unleaded
gasoline with a minimum octane rating of 91.
Reformulated Gasoline (RFG) and/or
unleaded gasoline with additives can be used.
The concentration of additives in the fuel,
however, must not exceed 10%, e.g.:
Ethanol
TAME
ETBE
IPA
TBA
For MTBE, the concentration should not
exceed 15%.
The concentration of methanol in gasoline,
including other additives, must not exceed
3%.
Using mixtures of methanol and ethanol is not
permitted. Gasohol, a mixture of 10% ethanol
and 90% unleaded gasoline, may be used.

It also has a number of restrictions and directions re when you cannot get premium unleadeds such as quantities to add to the tank, restricting revs, watch the loading etc.

Interesting document the Owner's Manual.

I keep a PDF version in my computer for quick reference rather than go out to the car every time I want to check something.

looney100 11-22-2016 05:38 AM


Originally Posted by AMGonFire (Post 6975672)
tell me how subaru Mazda bmw performance cars run e85 for thousands and thousands of miles with no issues. Those cars arnt any more or less designed for e85. Those manufacturers also state 10 percent max and they have no issues. Eurocharged has been running e85 on there 2012 c63 with no issues as well. I think we will be fine.

By your logic, George Burns smoked his entire life, and lived to 100 years old, so therefore smoking must be healthy. Certainly, we must know more than those who designed and built the vehicles we drive.

Just because you've heard stories about guys who are running high alcohol concentrations without apparent issue, doesn't mean it won't catch up to them one day. The long-term issue with ethanol is incompatibility with materials used in the fuel systems. Those issues can take time to manifest themselves as materials degrade. Everything seems fine until one day your fuel system is shot.

Do what you want. Based on my industry experience and automotive knowledge, my tank won't see anything beyond 10%.

looney100 11-22-2016 07:43 AM

Okay, so the memory isn't as sharp as it used to be, but general message is the same.
  • Document discusses a 15% ethanol standard, not 20%
  • 75% of MY2016 vehicles are warranted for E15, but only 18% of established fleet
  • All 2016 vehicles from the following manufacturers are capable of E15: Ford, GM, Toyota, Volkswagen, Jaguar, Land Rover
  • Most 2016 vehicles capable of E15: Honda, Mercedes Benz, Lexus, BMW
  • Definite 'No' from: Nissan, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Volvo, Subaru

So, we have a number of manufacturers, including Mercedes, clearly stating that at least some of their 2016 vehicles cannot handle 15% ethanol - and you've got guys driving vehicles several model years old that are confident that E85 in their vehicle won't cause damage?

No thanks.

Jasonoff 11-22-2016 08:16 AM

I'd be concerned about this happening with that much ethanol.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...ecc7ecf3e1.jpg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...78864df3e3.jpg

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...cf69ae4a01.jpg

Alex.currie44 11-22-2016 10:26 AM

It always fascinates me how some amongst us seem to feel their experience out strips people who design, build and test to destruction these high performance engines.
Gas, particularly for our American friends, is the cheapest thing you will ever put in your car. If you cannot afford the pennies difference between premium and premium with 10% (or if the 2016s can handle 15%) alcohol maybe it is time to drive something else.

Diabolis 11-22-2016 11:07 AM


Originally Posted by AMGonFire (Post 6975655)
tell me how eurocharged gained additional 30 to 35 wheel over standard 93 octane with their new flex fuel kit nothing else but e85 and the v6 e85 tune that's substantial to me also eurocharged said the stock injectors and pump are good for 550 whp so no change is needed for this


First of all, I can't find anythign about their "flex fuel" kit on their site... so please point me in the right direction. Second, fuel injectors and pump can only move a certain quantity of fuel per unit time. They may be good for 550 hp when you're squirting in gas. If they are squirting in E85 which has ~25% less energy per unit volume than gas at the same temperature, they would be good for 410 hp at the most... so yeah, they would require replacement. If they are squirting in water, they would be good for 0 hp.

compaddict 11-22-2016 11:14 AM

I'm on the other side man! I'm saying that our fuel systems are 100 percent safe for Ethanol. There might be some issues with water and rust though.


Originally Posted by AMGonFire (Post 6975672)
tell me how subaru Mazda bmw performance cars run e85 for thousands and thousands of miles with no issues. Those cars arnt any more or less designed for e85. Those manufacturers also state 10 percent max and they have no issues. Eurocharged has been running e85 on there 2012 c63 with no issues as well. I think we will be fine.


Diabolis 11-22-2016 12:06 PM

Let's just get one thing straight right away: ethanol is not an acceptable fuel on its own merits. It is mixed with gasoline and pumped into vehicles in the USA for purely political reasons. The USA has more corn than it knows what to do with, and the agricultural industry lobby is putting massive pressure on politicians and the EPA to mandate ever increasing dilution of gasoline with corn-derived ethanol, nicely marketed under the whole "envirnmentally friendly renewable energy" guise.

Ethanol production from corn only reduces greenhouse emissions by 2-3% at best (and once you take into account that your mileage goes down by at least 3% even with E10 that we currently have), the net result is zero. If envirnmental friendliness and sustainability is what we're really after, the best thing to make ethanol from is... hemp. Yup. Making ethanol from hemp would result in a 50% greenhouse gas emission reduction, not to mention various other benefits of hemp over corn... even excluding the pleasurable nefarious ones. :) For an intersting read on ethanol production from corn vs. hemp, see http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...257504411.html... not to mention hemp's superiority over corn when it comes to production of paper, textiles, biodegradable plastics and animal feed. If eco friendliness is what we're after, hemp is a *much* better source for ethanol production. Just sayin'... we've got to stay loose, you know. Let it cool... let the coolness get into our vertebrae. :cool:

Alex.currie44 11-22-2016 12:39 PM


Originally Posted by Diabolis (Post 6976044)
Let's just get one thing straight right away: ethanol is not an acceptable fuel on its own merits. It is mixed with gasoline and pumped into vehicles in the USA for purely political reasons. The USA has more corn than it knows what to do with, and the agricultural industry lobby is putting massive pressure on politicians and the EPA to mandate ever increasing dilution of gasoline with corn-derived ethanol, nicely marketed under the whole "envirnmentally friendly renewable energy" guise.

Ethanol production from corn only reduces greenhouse emissions by 2-3% at best (and once you take into account that your mileage goes down by at least 3% even with E10 that we currently have), the net result is zero. If envirnmental friendliness and sustainability is what we're really after, the best thing to make ethanol from is... hemp. Yup. Making ethanol from hemp would result in a 50% greenhouse gas emission reduction, not to mention various other benefits of hemp over corn... even excluding the pleasurable nefarious ones. :) For an intersting read on ethanol production from corn vs. hemp, see http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...257504411.html... not to mention hemp's superiority over corn when it comes to production of paper, textiles, biodegradable plastics and animal feed. If eco friendliness is what we're after, hemp is a *much* better source for ethanol production. Just sayin'... we've got to stay loose, you know. Let it cool... let the coolness get into our vertebrae. :cool:

AND, in other parts of the world where E85 has taken hold, fields that once produced edible crops have been taken out of production in those grains and converted to non-edible feedstocks for ethanol.
The consequences are of course that people once had a source of cheap food now are faced with buying more expensive foods and in many cases it has pushed daily diets to starvation levels because people just cannot afford the replacements.
The law of unintended consequences in full bloom and for what.


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