E85 fuel in an AMG?
 

I was lurking on the Club Lexus site for the ISF and there is a thread where members have used a blend of E85 and premium fuels. Those that have done this say that they get better fuel mileage as well as power across the board due to timing advance. Now as I recall the manual stated to never use greater than 10% ethanol and never use methanol. Given that ethanol is not as efficient at producing energy as gasoline I'm not sure that this is true.

So my question: Has anyone tried this in their C63 and if so what were the results?

Eurocharged just released their ethanol setup. It requires some hardware as well as some software but is said to give about 40-50 whp. Stock setup...the car won't run or might even be damaged.

+1

Mercedes cars are not built to handle more than 10% ethanol. Exceeding this can cause trouble with the fuel system.
A stock tune will not do anything to take advantage of the higher octane.

Aside from the valid concerns stated above, Ethanol has 25% less energy per unit mass than gasoline, so an E85 blend will deliver only 85% of the energy that gasoline does - which means that in order to produce the same power, you'll end up using 20-25% *more* E85 than gas. That is a decrease in fuel economy, not an improvment. If you're now getting, say, 200 miles per tank of gas on average, all other things being equal you'd only get 150 miles on E85.

Thanks for the replies. As Diabolis has confirmed, the ISF crew using this blend should not see more power or better fuel mileage but could very well damage their engines as ethanol is corrosive to some of the engine parts including the fuel injectors. Hope nothing bad come of it for their sakes as those engines are about $25k for a new one.

E85 makes much more HP as long as you tune and have the pump/injector capacity.
And our fuel systems have been 100 percent safe for Ethanol for many, many years.

An old but still valid and fairly concise article on E85 vs. gas:

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-...ernative-fuel/

I used to use Q16 race fuel at 16.00-18.00 a gallon..
E85 makes the same power for 2.00 a gallon.
Crazy stuff.

Assuming that the engine design allows for it, you could *maybe* get a 4% power increase with E85 over gas assuming that you make all the right changes. I don't know that I'd call 4% much more, but it is an increase. As for our fuel systems being 100% safe, that's 100% safe with a 10% Ethanol conent, not 85% Ethanol content. Our existing fuel pump and injectors can't deliver 25% more fuel, which you'd need just to get the SAME power out of E85. There are may variables at play.

Been there done that (and thought that way). Got three empty 54 gallon drums of Q16 to show for it.
E85 is magic. You can really extend your IG ADV with this stuff. Much more than 116 octane. Prolly due to the cooling effect of using so much of it!
Twenty-ish percent more power in a Miata 1800cc NA engine.

Q16 is an oxygenated race fuel, so you're already getting 5-10% more power vs. say, C16... and yes, you can definitely advance the timing a LOT. :) And, you're 100% correct about the cooling effect - Ethanol has much greater latent heat of vaporization than gas, which basically super-cools the intake charge and thus increases the air density (like in water-alcohol injection). However, to get the maximum benefit from either Q16 or C16, ideally you'd need a reworked mill with a 14:1 or higher CR, and/or forced induction... the M156 is a NA lump with a 11.3:1 CR, so IMHO there's hardly any point in going the E85 route on a C63 once you take into account the costs of the conversion vs. the potential gains... and with our 66L fuel tanks, you'll be looking for a gas station every 20 minutes. :(

There is that!

I work in the fuel industry - I have an industry document on my other computer that discusses a potential E20 fuel standard (current limit is typically 10%). If I remember correctly, it states that 50% of MY2016 vehicles can handle 20% ethanol, but only 15% of cars on the road can do so, and I recall that it stated that Mercedes explicitly stated not to exceed 10% ethanol for its vehicles.

Will try to remember to post the specifics tomorrow morning.

tell me how eurocharged gained additional 30 to 35 wheel over standard 93 octane with their new flex fuel kit nothing else but e85 and the v6 e85 tune that's substantial to me also eurocharged said the stock injectors and pump are good for 550 whp so no change is needed for this

I have heard or seen that as well.
The thing is our fuel systems are either Ethanol safe or not.
I don't believe there is any leeway for that sort of thing.

tell me how subaru Mazda bmw performance cars run e85 for thousands and thousands of miles with no issues. Those cars arnt any more or less designed for e85. Those manufacturers also state 10 percent max and they have no issues. Eurocharged has been running e85 on there 2012 c63 with no issues as well. I think we will be fine.

From page 356 of the Canadian manual for 2013 C Class.

"Only refuel using premium-grade unleaded
gasoline with a minimum octane rating of 91.
Reformulated Gasoline (RFG) and/or
unleaded gasoline with additives can be used.
The concentration of additives in the fuel,
however, must not exceed 10%, e.g.:
Ethanol
TAME
ETBE
IPA
TBA
For MTBE, the concentration should not
exceed 15%.
The concentration of methanol in gasoline,
including other additives, must not exceed
3%.
Using mixtures of methanol and ethanol is not
permitted. Gasohol, a mixture of 10% ethanol
and 90% unleaded gasoline, may be used.

It also has a number of restrictions and directions re when you cannot get premium unleadeds such as quantities to add to the tank, restricting revs, watch the loading etc.

Interesting document the Owner's Manual.

I keep a PDF version in my computer for quick reference rather than go out to the car every time I want to check something.

By your logic, George Burns smoked his entire life, and lived to 100 years old, so therefore smoking must be healthy. Certainly, we must know more than those who designed and built the vehicles we drive.

Just because you've heard stories about guys who are running high alcohol concentrations without apparent issue, doesn't mean it won't catch up to them one day. The long-term issue with ethanol is incompatibility with materials used in the fuel systems. Those issues can take time to manifest themselves as materials degrade. Everything seems fine until one day your fuel system is shot.

Do what you want. Based on my industry experience and automotive knowledge, my tank won't see anything beyond 10%.

Okay, so the memory isn't as sharp as it used to be, but general message is the same.

• Document discusses a 15% ethanol standard, not 20%
• 75% of MY2016 vehicles are warranted for E15, but only 18% of established fleet
• All 2016 vehicles from the following manufacturers are capable of E15: Ford, GM, Toyota, Volkswagen, Jaguar, Land Rover
• Most 2016 vehicles capable of E15: Honda, Mercedes Benz, Lexus, BMW
• Definite 'No' from: Nissan, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Volvo, Subaru

So, we have a number of manufacturers, including Mercedes, clearly stating that at least some of their 2016 vehicles cannot handle 15% ethanol - and you've got guys driving vehicles several model years old that are confident that E85 in their vehicle won't cause damage?

No thanks.

I'd be concerned about this happening with that much ethanol.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...ecc7ecf3e1.jpg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...78864df3e3.jpg

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...cf69ae4a01.jpg

It always fascinates me how some amongst us seem to feel their experience out strips people who design, build and test to destruction these high performance engines.
Gas, particularly for our American friends, is the cheapest thing you will ever put in your car. If you cannot afford the pennies difference between premium and premium with 10% (or if the 2016s can handle 15%) alcohol maybe it is time to drive something else.

First of all, I can't find anythign about their "flex fuel" kit on their site... so please point me in the right direction. Second, fuel injectors and pump can only move a certain quantity of fuel per unit time. They may be good for 550 hp when you're squirting in gas. If they are squirting in E85 which has ~25% less energy per unit volume than gas at the same temperature, they would be good for 410 hp at the most... so yeah, they would require replacement. If they are squirting in water, they would be good for 0 hp.

I'm on the other side man! I'm saying that our fuel systems are 100 percent safe for Ethanol. There might be some issues with water and rust though.

Let's just get one thing straight right away: ethanol is not an acceptable fuel on its own merits. It is mixed with gasoline and pumped into vehicles in the USA for purely political reasons. The USA has more corn than it knows what to do with, and the agricultural industry lobby is putting massive pressure on politicians and the EPA to mandate ever increasing dilution of gasoline with corn-derived ethanol, nicely marketed under the whole "envirnmentally friendly renewable energy" guise.

Ethanol production from corn only reduces greenhouse emissions by 2-3% at best (and once you take into account that your mileage goes down by at least 3% even with E10 that we currently have), the net result is zero. If envirnmental friendliness and sustainability is what we're really after, the best thing to make ethanol from is... hemp. Yup. Making ethanol from hemp would result in a 50% greenhouse gas emission reduction, not to mention various other benefits of hemp over corn... even excluding the pleasurable nefarious ones. :) For an intersting read on ethanol production from corn vs. hemp, see http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...257504411.html... not to mention hemp's superiority over corn when it comes to production of paper, textiles, biodegradable plastics and animal feed. If eco friendliness is what we're after, hemp is a *much* better source for ethanol production. Just sayin'... we've got to stay loose, you know. Let it cool... let the coolness get into our vertebrae. :cool:

AND, in other parts of the world where E85 has taken hold, fields that once produced edible crops have been taken out of production in those grains and converted to non-edible feedstocks for ethanol.
The consequences are of course that people once had a source of cheap food now are faced with buying more expensive foods and in many cases it has pushed daily diets to starvation levels because people just cannot afford the replacements.
The law of unintended consequences in full bloom and for what.

And there is that too.

https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w204/643402-black-friday-ec-version-6-info.html

The first post by eurocharge talks about it. It was also discussed first in the v6 wish list post. I also contacted Adam at eurocharge atx via email with questions about it. Here is the deal like all you have said it requires more fuel to maintain proper air fuel ratios this is what the flex fuel controllers do. Eurocharge has extensively tested it on our cars and they respond great to e85 with the controller. Like most have said manufacturers recommend 10 15 what ever. This is due to the fact that with out a proper flex fuel kit or tuning your cars a/f ratio would be way off and engine damage would occur. This is due to the computer thinking it still has regular gas and not increasing the fuel amount being delivered. As far as the fuel system being able to handle it. They have to put the propor components to handle ethanol already since most all gas contains it. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure they don't have rubber hoses and hardware that can only handle 10 percent then ones that can handle 50 then ones that can handle 85. It can either handle ethanol or it can't. Now in regards to long term engine damage i don't know about that. What I will say is if people don't think adding a tune or headers or supercharger doesn't increase the wear on components they are lying to themselves. It's hard for me to believe that other car ma cacturers can handle e85 but an Amg can't. Evo, sti, mazdaspeed, m series, 335i to say a few all run it google it. My buddy ran e85 in his wrx for 65,000 miles when he finally sold it and it ran flawlessly. I personally don't think that motor is better then a handbuilt Amg. Now on another thought flex fuel designed vehicles they are out there. Per the manufacturer can put either gas or e85 in it. Those vehicles have the same type of vehicle you can buy same motor but none flex fuel gas only. Do you really believe the internal motor or any of those parts are any different. And regardless most have said e85 is corrosive and damaging so it wouldn't matter anyways. Those manufactures warranty those vehicles the same as the rest. Why if e85 is so damaging? I understand what most have posted on the science behind it. I like to look at real world examples and there are a ton of them proving e85 can be used. How long that is the ??

I ran E85 in my evo for 3 years never had a problem, stock lines, stock tank, I am pretty sure we can at least run a blend (E40) in these cars with a flex fuel kit.

That first post briefly mentions a tune for running E85, but doesn't say much else. The tune is the easiest part of the equation - you can advance the timing a lot with ethanol - but this doesn't address a number of other much more significant issues.

As for the rest of your comments, I am afraid you're either projecting here or are just plain confused. I never said anything about whether the C63 will fail after 1 mile on E85 or whether it will run for 1,000,000 miles. All I said was that *IF* the OEM injectors are able to squirt enough gas for "up to 550 hp", it does not necessarily follow that the same injectors can squirt enough E85 for the same engine to produce 550 hp, because you need to squirt in 25% more E85 than you do gas to achieve the same power output. If the person - whoever it is - that claimed that the injectors are good up to 550 hp meant 550 hp on E85, then with gasoline they should be good up to 680 hp.

And, I also stated that the M156 mill is not the best motor from a design standpoint to make the best use out of high octane fuels, but I never said anythign about its suitability to run either ethanol, E85 or Q16 / C16 race gas.

As for what you're actually claiming now... I don't even want to get into that particular debate, but for the record, just because something will work with a little bit of a certain substance, it does not mean that it will work with a lot of that same substance. Back in 1985, some cheap Austrian wine makers added a little bit of antifreeze to speed up the fermentation and add some body to the wine. No one ever died or even got sick as a direct result of ingesting said small quanitiy of antifreeze, and to this day I might still use the "taste test" to figure out whether something that dripped from a car is water, oil or antifreeze... but if I were to drink a pint of antifreeze, I'd almost certainly die. Ethanol is not a universal panacea and does not work in all instances and applications. There are cars where it won't damage anything and others where it will damage stuff, and there are engines where it can offer a significant performance improvement and there are others where it won't. My grandfather's old 300D ran great on Jet A (Kerosene) with a little bit of ATF or two-stroke oil added in, or for that matter on cooking oil (which made it smell like french fries)... but I wouldn't use that in my ML even though it may actually run on it.

The antifreeze thing doesn't apply but ok. I'm repeating what eurocharged said about the fuel system being able to support e85 with no additional changing out. They said 550 not me. Point is this you have no idea if it's good or bad or if it will work. You said it yourself. Eurocharged who is a reputable company on here says it does and will. It would be bad pr for them if they said all this and running the e85 map blew motors. Seeing so many other cars running this with great results and no signs of negatives. I will give it a go and I'll post my dyno. I bet more will jump
on board if this is everything they say it is.

(Diabolis) That was a lot of words. I'm not really tracking sixty percent of what you wrote though.
If a fuel system can handle Ethanol, your injectors are big enough and your fuel pump has enough capacity.. Done deal.

...Many very big ifs...

Four total.
Have a nice thanksgiving!
Vince

While we are on a very good topic.... All the very fast N/A C63s like Dads, Dodger, Mthis etc. What fuel were they running when they did those times?
It says 100 Octane, but do you think they added any additives?

I don't understand the logic in this. "Big enough" (meaning capable of delivering enough fuel) and "compatible with" are 2 different things. Diabolis is saying the fuel system can't deliver enough fuel (liquid) to run e85. Sure the injectors and pump and hardware might be compatible with ethanol meaning that they won't fail in the presence of ethanol. That's doesn't mean they can deliver enough e85 to run. Example: a shot glass and a pitcher might both me made of glass, but that doesn't mean the shot glass gives me enough water to run a marathon. Both hold the water and are fine but the capacity to delivery the liquid is not. So it's not what i would call a "done deal." I don't know enough about the EC ethanol setup to comment. I know what they claim and have no reason to doubt it, but I don't know what mix of ethanol they are using either. Could be e40. That would make more sense to me. But I don't know enough about the capability of our fuel system or their blend of ethanol.

I tried e85 with out a tune. I did 10% ethanol with 98oct Aussie fuel. And with out a tune it doesn't work. Car still runs fine, but ecu pulls timing. Car runs cooler and ecu adds fuel but doesn't make more power.

I am still chuckling at this debate. Why does it matter if they run on E85? If you can afford these cars is gas really the issue unless E85 is all you can access. Gas is the cheapest thing about operating these cars in my view.
Up here in BC getting gas without 10% alcohol is pretty difficult on a day to day basis. We get 91 and 94 octane with 10%.
If 481 or 507 HP ain't enough I got no comment.

People want the power that usually comes with e85. And for many, myself included, 507 hp is not enough. It gets addicting. You need a bigger and bigger hit.

I am confused by your reply.
Ounce for ounce E85 has less power than straight 91 Octane gas.
The theory is that ethanol burns to CO2 and water so that reduces other GHGs. I think what you are saying is you need to increase fuel flow to maintain the power. It is not coming from the fuel.

What I'm meaning to say is, if you have an engine that can supply enough e85 to reach it's full potenial on e85, it will make more power than when it runs on 93 octane. It will burn significantly more e85 than 93 octane, but it will make more power. That assumes that the tune is optomized and the fuel system can supply enough e85. This is why guys with heavily modded cars, especially forced induction cars, that have much more capable fuel systems (pumps and injectors) can utilize e85. So yes, you are correct in saying you need more e85 vs 93 octane to maintain the same power level.

Can our fuel system deliver enough straight e85 to make more power with a tune? Diabolis says no. Can it deliver enough e40 or some other lower blend? I think eurocharged is saying yes which is why they are claiming 30-40 whp more with their ethanol system.

E85 does not provide any boost in power. It has a higher octane rating, so you MAY be able to take use a more aggressive tune, which would make more power. E85 does NOTHING on its own.

Actually, it isn't for the combustion byproducts that ethanol is preferred - it's theoretically due to the source of the fuel - the crop that ethanol is derived from consumes CO2 when grown, so the net carbon footprint is supposedly smaller.

However, there are studies that are calling this into question, given the CO2 generated in the planting, growing, harvesting and transporting of the crop that the benefits, if any, are unclear. Europe has significantly scaled back its ethanol mandates given recent evidence. However, the farm lobby in NA is very strong, and we're still charging ahead with this flawed fuel.

This is the truth

If you read my following post, you will see how I elaborated on having a tune to take advantage of e85.

^ This.

This is also true... but the corollary is that if you have a tune that is able to take advantage of a 100 octane fuel, all other things being equal you'll get more power running race gas with the same octane rating as you would with E85. As chrisridebike8 suggested above, ethanol blends can be used to produce more power as ethanol is essentially an oxygenating agent. VP100 - http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp-100-fuel or the newer VP101 (halfway down in http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp-drag-racing) - is a perfect example of the power gains that can be achieved with a relatively low ethanol content (the exact percentage is not listed but it is below 10%) and race gas blend. VP claims up to 14% more power on some turbocharged engines over 91 octane gas... but you will definitely need a tune. And, again, it doesn't come without problems... there's an informative article to read at http://www.stangtv.com/tech-stories/...genated-fuels/ that addresses both the benefits and potential shortfalls.

i I feel like you don't know what you are talking about. You can utilize the same power from e85 as you can race gas in fact e85 is typically 105 octane. The difference is it requires more fuel to supply the same power just the way it works but power is the same due to being able to take advantage of the octane rating. It has everything to do with the octane. The reason why e85 is attractive over race gas is e85 can be run on a regular basis due to it being at least for me under 2 bucks a gallon vs 6 to 7 for race gas and I get the same benefits and power on a daily basis.

Lots of really wrong information here.
And it's getting worse, not better.

That happens because (a) I really can't further simplify things down to your level, and (b) what you are saying is both contradictory and wrong.
Completely agreed with you here... just keep in mind that all of the wrong information was posted by you and AMGonFire. If you don't want it to get worse, the two of you need to stop - otherwise we're going to end up with an even bigger mess.

😆👍🏻 Your confused it's ok nothing I said is contradictory or wrong I don't think you understand how e85 works. You seem to think race gas will net more results compared to e85 because it has less ethanol. It's all about the octane I don't think you understand that. I'm not here to get in an argument with anyone on these forums. You think your right that's fine no need to insult me.

AMGonFire - it is *NOT* all about the octane. The octane rating only measures the fuel's resistance to knocking or pinging during combustion and how fast the fuel burns. Nothing else. A higher octane fuel is less explosive and actually burns slower than a lower octane fuel... which is why you're wrong. It's not about the octane - it's about the energy density per unit volume of the fuel, which is lower in ethanol by about 25%-30% than gasoline with the same octane rating.

you keep repeating the same thing over and over. Iv already said yes e85 requires more of it to make the same power as race gas volume to volume. Not disagreeing with you there. Guess what I will use 30 percent more e85 vs your car on race gas. But guess what I will make the same power utilizing the high octane just like race gas. It is all about the octane because you need that resistance to knocking when you are advancing the timing. 105 octane race gas vs 105 octane e85 with a tune for both will net similar power gains. This is why it's used 2 bucks a gallon vs 7, race gas power all the time, readily available. It's hard to find race gas.

Where did you find 105 octane for $7?!:eek: 100 octane is like 9 here. And when I ran MS109 (with a tune for it) it was $13.75/gal. I'd run race gas more often if it were $7 around here

You win and I give.


"ethanol is essentially an oxygenating agent" - Nope, not when lit on fire.


Had to leave one fact for you though.

If that is what you were saying all along, then I apologize because that is correct... except that we're now at the little practical problem. As you yourself said, you will need to use 30% more E85 than you would race gas with the same octane rating to make the same power. The problem is that the stock fuel rails and injectors on the C63 can not deliver 30% more fuel than they do now at redline / WOT. You would need bigger fuel rails and injectors (something similar to the ones that Weistec uses with their S/C kits).

LOL... you might want to fact-check your "fact" with VP Racing fuels and everyone else that uses it as an oxygenating agent... or just Google it. Here's a link to a Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygenate. :rolleyes:

well it's being done already with no upgrades been saying this from the start. The magnossen supercharger kit appears to retain the stock injectors and pump only when upgrading to stage 2 smaller pulley and injectors required they do 500 plus wheel with the stage one

about 40 minutes from my house random gas station just stumbled upon it last time I saw it was a year ago though was 7.68 something like that.

The e85 argument is easy for the w204 c63... Ready?

Can it be done? Yes. Is it worth it? No.

See, that was easy.

Pouring e85 in the tank isn't what gives you power. It's the timing/tuning. Trying to squeeze every bit of power out of your stock system is just going to cause problems. For e85 to work you need pumps/rails/injectors to support the addition fuel required which is just not feasible or worth it in the w204 and that's just the start.

I'm not as much of a Debbie downer about e85 as some in here, either. I ran it in my FBO n54 135i. My JB4 (Tune) was capable of supporting multiple maps on the fly. I could literally change tunes while cruising down the road using OEM controls on the steering wheel. One of which was set to make adjustments for fuel and being a direction injection system it supported this. And yes, there was a very noticeable difference when I put in e85. The differences being lower mpg's but more power, mostly torque, because of the way it works. I also have easy access to e85 so if I felt like it I could just throw some in, change maps, and off I went. You do get some looks though when you put e85 in and then drive to another pump to top of with 93. But this is a completely different car.

The only time e85, in my opinion, reasonably makes it into the discussion here is on boosted builds that have already gone the extra mile to make power and do so in a way where the car can support it.

The M156 has been around long enough that you guys aren't going to find any new mind blowing advancements in power. Furthermore, the road to more power is simple and well documented at this point which is something like this:

Filters / Tune --> Headers --> Supercharger. Those are you options with this car. After that if you still need more look to saving weight, better suspension, and better tires. If you go that far you've probably spent close to half (if not more) than what you spent on the car itself. But this e85 conversation that comes up every so often here just needs to fade because although it always leads to some fun posts it always ends with the same result: nobody uses it or if they do not as intended.

Eurocharged in Toronto dyoned a bone stock 507 at 418 rwhp (which assuming a 20% drivetrain loss, is 501 crank hp - so the number is more or less correct). Assuming that all of the power gains claimed by Magnuson are due to a directly proportional increase in fuel delivery, it is still only 20%, not 30 - and they *DO* include upgraded fuel rails in their S/C kit. Weistec supplies new rails and injectors with their stage 1 kit for the M156. So - if both Magnuson adn Weistec supply upgraded fuel rails (and at least one of them also supplies higher flow injectors) to achieve a 20% increase in fuel flow, I'd love to learn how you're going to squirt in 30% without touching the fuel delivery system. Again, what am I missing?

Amen. :bow:

weistec does not supply bigger injectors until the stage three blower and yes with a stage 1/2 my car makes 580whp. So with stock injectors and pump it handles it just fine but even with the bigger rail it is very close to maxed out. Now as for the E85 yes the system will handle it with the eurocharged kit "think GM flex fuel" so once the module is in you can run 91 93 e85 or a mix of whatever you want or tune specifically for the e85 more so for track application i.e. 1/4 mile is where it comes in Great because you can make more power for cheap and not care about your miles per gallon.

finally someone on here that gets it

OK... I was looking in their Stage 1 kit instructions (http://weistec.com/media/productfile...6sc_c_s1s2.pdf), page 27 item (m): "Installing new fuel rails and injectors onto supercharger unit buy using 4mm Allen bit and 1/4" drive. Aluminum finish spacers will be used between manifold and fuel rail.", but I don't have a S/C kit myself so that could be wrong. Anyway - both Magnuson and Weistec supply at the very least new fuel rails. So - the addition of an ethanol controller ONLY without upgraded fuel rails, not to mention a tune - which the Eurocharged post says is optional (!) - is not going to do squat.

PurpleHeart how is eurocharged doing it? Have you seen their kit. I know you frequent these forums.

many people on here have sworn by faster 1/4 mile times at the track by just adding race gas I understand the idea of needed to tune for the potential but many have said the m156 loves race gas the same would apply then to the e85 the controller adds the necessary increase in fuel least that's how the gain of 20 wheel with no tune that eurocharged is saying I going on what they have said

Whatever you say, brother... I am completely wrong and the car will make 700 hp on E85 (and at least another 150 hp on top if you fart in the direction of the nozzle while fillign it up with E85) without touching the fuel delivery system. I am wrong and you are right. OK?

:wall:

Why hard to believe? Manufacturers make cars differently...

Also, your buddies wrx wasn't stock, was it? Let me guess, he probably had something like larger injectors + a 255 walbro in there...

The motor isn't "better" than your AMG handbuilt motor. But, e85 isn't damaging the motor it is actually cleaning it and burning "better." The corrosion and damage is limited to the fuel system.

At the end of the day a w204 is just a c-class with a big v8. It's not as exclusive as you may think.

Refer above, but again, e85 isn't damaging the motor. The increase in power from properly supported e85 systems may wear a motor more rapidly but the e85 isn't doing it alone.

Your "real world" examples are apples and oranges. Just because a Mazda does something doesn't mean an Mercedes will and vice versa.

Of course the follow up to that is saying something like "show me an apples to apples comparison" which would be something along the lines of comparing an e85 M156 to a non-e85 m156. That being said you can't find this comparison because it doesn't really exist... And there is a reason for it.

Using race gas does NOT require more fuel. Using E85 does - by as much as 30% - which the stock fuel system (it appears that the rails are the bottleneck) can't deliver, and certainly not without a tune. But again, you must be right because you read it in that one post by EC, and we all know that they can't possibly ever make a mistake or say something that isn't true.

I have not. And I just went to EC's website and typed in "e85" in the search and got nothing back. I also don't really care about some simple mention of it in an EC tuning thread.

Again, nobody is denying that it can be done. And sure, if EC is doing it then great! EC, e85, and c63's have been around for almost a decade. Ask yourself, out of the thousands of c63 members here, many of whom run tunes, how many run e85?

Lastly, if I were you I would remain skeptical of advertised numbers that come from companies. Love EC to death, done business with them before and would continue to do so. However, I don't remain blind to the fact the auto industry has a very convoluted way of advertising numbers and the numbers games.

i agree on skepticism. As far as running e85 previously there haven't been any tuning option or flex fuel kits till now. Maybe I'm wrong. I never saw any in previous post on this forum. New modifications come out all the time e85 isn't new but I think it is for this platform. My whole entire point in this thread was this other platforms have good results with it. I get they are diff motors but my point being non of those motors where designed to run e85. Yes the wrx had pump and injectors correct. But those motors are doing fine with it. Why wouldn't ours? No reason it wouldn't. It's been proven this car makes more power on race gas. Eurocharged has a flex kit out that seems according to them only to make good reliable power. I'd like to see real world examples not just eurocharged but at this point I might have to be that test dummy.

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄 broken record


i get it needs more fuel for e85 please prove to me with actual hard core data that stock injectors don't flow enough for it not what you think that the pump and injectors can do

Diabolis no the stage 1/2 kits only come with bigger rail I run a 2 and you re use the factory injectors as a side note I also spray methanol injection 50/50 mix and it works incredibly well, with 93 in and the meth it's more like running 100 octane and yes it's safe and good for the motor because I'm NOT tuned for meth it's just a safety feature. As for the E85 is it worth it probably not for a daily driver option at least anywhere with a cold winter the mixture is garbage in winter. But as for race applications I can see it being something worth looking into especially with boost the extra power and cheap availability makes it in many ways a better option than let's say ms109 or higher octane gas and it all comes down to price. As for the kit at $2000 plus install and tuning it's really not worth it I would tell someone to buy headers first but if they were fully built motor and blower or turbo etc.. the e85 could be the extra bit that gets your times down then the cost may be worth it I have seen 100 HP difference on boosted cars just by switching from gas to E85.

Never said our motor wouldn't be fine. It's the fuel system. Like I said, if anything, it'll actually clean things up a bit from burning better (cleaner). But corn fed cars do suffer from sediment build up within the fuel system which is where the problems come from. This includes from tank to injector nozzles that get gummed up.

This is an example of what will happen to your injectors:
Attachment 364430

Now, imagine that over time the injector starts clean and slowly builds up. The car will slowly, but surely, run worse and worse over time. How much time/miles? Depends on too many variables and "If's" but you will end up there 100% of the time.

Race gas vs. e85 which has also been brought up... Don't want to dive it too much here but yeah the results between the two may be similar but if you're running e85 you need more supporting mods in place than race gas because of the amount of fuel flowing. Bottom line, an amount of flow is required using e85 that the stock system does not properly support.

Also -- Go look at all those other platforms doing fine with it and you'll likely notice those platforms either start with turbo's and/or direct injection. By now you know the c63 is neither. You keep asking why the c63 can't do it and it is because it wasn't built to do so. AMG engineers weren't thinking to themselves "How can we build this car to support modified cars running high ethanol?" I can't offer any other words than that.

I need a link to this $2k system that was mentioned as well. Can't find any mention of it anywhere from EC and it has been asked for a couple of times sooo...

I circle back around to my point where e85 can make sense on a c63. One that is boosted and heavily modified to a certain point. But 99.99% of c63's aren't there and never will be there. Most are just DDing the car or a weekend warrior and if you're either of the two e85 truly is not worth it.

That all said, I don't know what kind of value people put on a couple extra hp vs cost and some of y'all are some crazy dudes.

link?

Edit: $2k + install + tune... Yeah, if that's the case I'm not worried about trying to convince people not to do it. Plenty of members here running budget oil changes, brake pads, all season tires, and eBay CF bits that barely fit. You're exactly right, just tell people to get headers instead. Proven easy power.

I don't have a link but call Adam at Eurocharged Austin he can get you squared away the Austin location is the one that developed it and are who quoted me at 2k for the module. And also explained how it works and I must admit I'm intrigued and I fully agree with your statement above. :y

Edited last post but will just comment here that EC could use a little refresh. I mean, they have the black Friday tune special in the c63 section but other bits still mention the v4 and the entire website has no mention of e85 according to the search feature.

Is the module the only hardware involved?

Ohhhh... I just found out where AMGonFire set himself on fire... in the priceless musings of a newbie at Eurocharged TX at https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...ishlist-7.html. The assumptions are freakin' hillarious... "MB makes a C300 for the Brazil market, therefore all W204s everywhere must be E85 compatible...", "E85 is not really 85% ethanol... it is 50% or whatever-the-hell-it-suits-us to-be" and a friend who sent him a pic of the sticker on a gas station that reads "consult the manufacturer for use of gasoline mixed with ethanol on mid-1980 and older vehicles"... therefore the M156 must be fine to run on ethanol. What a freakin' joke - and you're asking me for proof? This is a dude at the same shop that made 30 hp with the intake spacers. Yeah... credibility-r-us!

I'm off to make real use of some ethanol - by consuming it in a finely distilled beverage (and while I don't drink gasoline, I'll make sure to consume at least 30% more... the real question is whther it will pour out of the bottle at a sufficinetly high rate. To AMGonFire and everyone else that drank the Koolaid - enjoy the massive power gains on your C63 with your E85 kit! Annd make sure to add intake spacers for even more powaaaaaaaah!!! :rolf::rolf::rolf:

again no idea what you are talking about. Those quotes are not from me. I am far from a noob. Your defensive insultive response tells me everything you have said has come out of your rear end with no merit thanks for that proof I figured so

[QUOTE=PurpleHeartAMG;6979086]Never said our motor wouldn't be fine. It's the fuel system. Like I said, if anything, it'll actually clean things up a bit from burning better (cleaner). But corn fed cars do suffer from sediment build up within the fuel system which is where the problems come

Also -- Go look at all those other platforms doing fine with it and you'll likely notice those platforms either start with turbo's and/or direct injection. By now you know the c63 is neither. You keep asking why the c63 can't do it and it is because it wasn't built to do so.

You keep taking random things I said on this post. I was not specifically speaking to you. Other people on here I was responding to. I am aware of the cleaning effects of e85 but I have not seen anyone with gunk buildup on injectors not saying it doesn't happen just kinda goes against the whole cleaning aspect. I have seen e85 with direct injection and it doesn't fair as well in those it does gunks up the pump. Not sure if it's the type of delivery that causes it. Also none of the cars that currently run e85 where designed to run that either. It's the same. To me if it truly gets the gain eurocharged says 2k for 30 wheel not bad in my book. I'm not paying for install I can do all work on my car. I know they produced it they can say it makes 80 wherl and chumps like me will be like really lol I'm skeptical just think it's a cool idea

Honesty I'm not sure what's included in the package and yes the EC site need a bit of updating to say the least.

Buddy - I am not talking about you... I am referring to DavesMeanE's posts in the thread I linked above where you get your information that you're regurgitating here. Reading comprehension 101. I have no basis to form an opinion about whether your posts are dumb or not, as you simply don't take the time to read and process what the rest of us are saying. You read the first four words in a sentence, rearrange them as you wish, and fire back based on this partial information. Yeah, I know... I do sound like a broken record. It's now skiping on the groove that says "read the posts before you decide to fire off another round." :nix:

When I quote bits it's so you know what I'm responding to, but I read it all and take it all in.

Anyway, it's not like e85 is scrubbing bubbles and cleaning it's way through. It just burns better which causes less build up beyond the injector. Just separate motor and fuel system in your mind as two separate things. From tank to injection site and injection site and on. While the injector may be gummed up I bet the manifold on looks good. And that was just an example from a different car (I believe evo) which is a relatively simple and inexpensive car to get e85 running in and that guy was having all kinds of issues.

He was also trying to squeeze every last bit of power out of his car which is what people would be doing here adding in e85.

e85 actually works great in direction injection cars. As I said, I ran it in mine and never had any issues. I didn't even have an issue with the HPFP that a lot of bmw's suffer from.

Nobody is going to sit here and stop you, either. Just caution there is a lot more that goes into it than a simple module in order to truly be worth it on this platform and that's all I can say about it. If you end up having a go be sure to report back. Willing to bet even if you did it yourself the cost will exceed $2k and not by a little. Again, I'm not against e85, I just don't think it is smart to do on this car especially as an add on to cars running just a tune/intake. Money can be spent much more wisely to get gains.

Cool, thanks. I was basically just going down the road to see if EC swaps out rails or injectors along with the module. Or if they are basically just selling a flex fuel module and a more aggressive tune catered to higher octane.

my guess is there has to be something more than just a module like you said new bigger rail or something that adds the extra fuel needed. If I was going to run E85 I would do a bigger tank pump and something like a 6an line to to the motor with bigger injectors rail etc. but that still brings massive cost into the equation. So I guess if I was going for 8 second passes in the 1/4 then ok,a good reference would be JRCART I'm pretty sure he runs E85 in his CLK black series

JR could also buy 5 c63's for what he has put into that car.

I bet EC uses Weistec's fuel rail or something like it.

But yeah, we've really said what can be said on this. Cheers :y

I agree cheers to you too!

Agreed enough said thanks for the input all

Man - I just browsed through this thread again, and forgot how absolutely wrong **Diabolis** is... I hope nobody listens to anything that guy is vomiting...

LOLOLOLOLOLOL!

Far as I understand - That fastest C63's out there are all running the flex kit. There's also some fellas out in Australia running very fast on Ethanol. This isn't the 80's... There is literally no better fuel option for making more power, increasing reliability, and keeping your oil temps down.

Thanks

Dave

Thats what I'm saying! Diabolis 🙄. First hand bases the e85 kits rocks hitting the track Tuesday. Thanks Dave for great customer service and a great kit!

Regardless of anyone being wrong, I hate seeing these threads... because there isn't commercially availabile E85 in Hawaii. All across platforms, I've been reading about great results from properly built flex kits and the exaggeration of fuel system failures. Im glad to see it working out for guys with the m156 platform. Now we just need to add a couple bars of boost to the equation.

That's a FACT! Loves the boosts!

Just go in with your best buds and order some drums from you VP/Ignite rep ;)

Thanks

Dave

Sure thing!

I can almost feel the trolls coming... it's going to be a "who's-who" of the M156 TrollGang.:rolf:

I hope i'm wrong...

Thanks!

Dave

You know that's funny Dave. What's even funnier is this math - bear with me a second.

I'm just going to use some junk numbers from memory here, so don't quote me on any of this. It's just for demonstration purposes.

I've been trying to reconcile the data above from Diabolis and other sources that show E85 not having much of an effect on high compression ratio high hp NA engines like ours, with what Dave's showing us here. I mean, I have a "100 Octane" map already, and given the miles I drive don't mind filling with it when needed. I know for a fact that stuff is not going to harm my engine a bit or cause any other unwanted side effects like deposits or decreased range, or cost me $2k in hardware to do.

So Dave rolls out an E85 kit that magically gives ~50whp more than their V6 tune.
Then just a month or two later, he rolls out a magic Unicorn tune that gives ~40whp over their V6.
Well that timing strikes me as..... interesting.

I'm sitting here wondering if the major "E85 gains" here are a result of whatever sorcery EC is doing on the intake side to get the big gains on their new tune, rather than the E85 itself. Or is it any more than just a simple "Race Gas Tune" which I have already and it's working just fine without ****ing up my fuel system. Want the same gain, just get a "Race Map Tune" and fill up with some. Presto, I saved everyone $2k. Why anyone on a non-FI C63 would run this stuff over just good-old race gas is beyond me. :crazy:

Maybe I'm just bored. Maybe I'll have another think about it this afternoon - I still have some reading left. Either way, there's zero chance I'd run E85, if only because I don't feel like trailering my fuel along with me wherever I go. Plus if I already run race gas (which is demonstrably better in all the ways that are important to me), and have my car cooled the proper way with coolers already, then there's just zero point for me. Unless I'm curious to see first-hand what the long-term effects are of using E85 in a system not designed for it (i.e. C-class Brazil "flex fuel" cars are designed differently in order to use it). That sounds like a lot of fun.

I'm not sure I even know where to begin...

I guess I'll start by having you putting on your "100oct" tune, and filling up with E85. Report back how that works for you!! LOL

Those with little understanding like to poke fun and throw out wild hot air....

The E85 system and the "unicorn" tune are two completely different things. We sell kits to operate on anyone's tune. Or NO tune for that matter. Ethanol will pick up power on a bone stock car. Just because it's better. Add a little timing and it gets even more amazing.

Unicorn tune is a revision, as we are always developing things. It works on E85 cars, or gas cars the same way.

E85 gains are more than anything a function of percentage. It's simple. The more power you have - the more power you'll get by simply switching to E85. If you want to run faster and cooler at the track, you would use it. Simple as that.

Thanks!

Dave

BLKROKT is probably fun at parties.

E85 kits are developed for a large majority of cars. We use it in Autocross when we can because it burns a lot cooler than traditional fuel. The BRZ guys love the stuff. It's proven for YEARS that it makes WAY more power, even in NA applications. It's especially useful in high compression engines where more advanced timing can be utilized, and the AKI of Corn is superb for the price.

Stop being a douche and enjoy the development that continues to happen for our cars. You may be happy shelling $7/gal for 110, but I'd rather pay $2.50/gal for 115 and run a lot cooler.

​​​

I go through over 50gal of fuel on a typical 2-day track weekend. It would be 1.5x as much in E85 I guess.

Are you going to buy me a truck and trailer to carry all my fuel along with me? This isn't cute little 30sec autocross runs champ. It's absurd to even consider.

If the reason for your aversion to E85 is strictly based on your personal fuel consumption at the track, I would suggest not making ridiculous speculations like previously stated, Chief. Even at 50% more fuel consumption, which you pulled out of your ass it's more like 30-35%, you're still spending much less money with equal or greater performance gains.

With oil coolers, you're removing heat more efficiently from the system. It still runs hot. With E85, you're not introducing the heat in the first place. Makes sense to me. But what do I know, I just drive around parking lots.

Not saying anything but this was in a pinging thread...


​​​​​​​...... FIGHT!

Regardless of anything else, 2k for basically 20-30hp (seems to be what the gain is for 99% of people over their previous set ups) seems like a lot... You'd probably pick up the same with ported heads or a TB upgrade for about the same price.