kimeran

I have a very similar issue, but mine is a PFL.
It only used to do it when changing from 4th to 5th under certain throttle positions.
Sent it back to Merc a million times, they couldn't replicate the issue, and it showed no errors. Only happened in C mode.

Does the MCT have a torque convertor?

JimGnitecki

No, the MCT has wet clutch plates instead of a torque converter, for (slightly) improved fuel mileage.

Jim G

mwetter

To SuckaGDog, I don't think you need to worry about a direct correlation between this issue and a tune from EC. My car has never had their tune and still exhibits the symptoms. As I stated earlier, my car did have a custom dyno tune from another tuner so I can't say it is not related to being tuned, but I can say it is not specific to EC tunes.
A bunch of replies have been arguing about who is going to cover warranty claims. I hope we can get past that and just try to track down the cause and solution.

Diabolis

For those of you that are still not getting what should be plainly obvious to everyone, let me spell it out for you. Engineers at company A (let's call it Mercedes as an example, but it certainly applies to many others as well) spend hundreds of millions of dollars designing, building, analyzing various problems and failures, redesigning and rebuilding a car transmission or an engine until said transmission or engine works according to their specs and is reasonably reliable. Then company B (let's call it Eurocharged as an example, but again it certainly applies to many others as well) writes a tune that improves the performance of said engine or transmission (and notice I didn't say "improves the engine or transmission" - they make no physical changes to anything, only push the same hardware to operate beyond the design limits imposed by the manufacturer) based on their tinkering with a handful of cars. They then market their tunes as "free horsepower", but what they don't tell you in the same big capital letters is that there is no such thing as free anything, and that any extra performance they may be able to get must come at the expense of something else. You either need to beef up the design itself at a considerably greater cost, or sacrifice longevity.

Now, of the buyers of said tunes, maybe 10% realize and understand this. The remaining 90% are gullible people who haven't learned that you can't get something for nothing, gobble up the marketing bull and spend a couple of bucks on a tune that promises to magically unleash all this hidden performance, and then b!tch, whine and moan when something goes wrong with the the car. These are the same people that believe in the miraculous properties and amazing value of aftermarket oil additives, Ronco knife sets and the Abdominizer.

There's a line in the movie Blade Runner when Tyrell says "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly, Roy" to one of the androids, and actually dates back to Lao Tzu in Tao Te Ching. In other words, when you push something to perform harder without beefing up the design itself, it wears out quicker and/or breaks sooner. The graphs for a simple light bulb look something like this: http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/images/lamplife.gif. I would like to draw your attention to the blue line (Power) and the red line (Life), expressed as a relative percentage of their design specification. For a light bulb, running it at 110% of the rated power shortens its rated life to only 33%. Sure, the actual percentages may be different for an engine or a transmission, but the exact same principles certainly apply. Want that extra 45 hp from your C63 anyone with just a tune? No problem... but don't complain when your engine starts burning oil and the transmission starts slipping. Another famous saying when it comes to auto performance is "Power, Longevity, Low Cost - Pick Any Two". Everything has a life span, and all other things being equal, it is inversely proportional to how hard you use it.

Does that adequately explain whether a tune can or can not affect anything after you remove it? Bentz69 - can your nose still bleed and your mouth still hurt after I have stopped punching you in the face?

BLKROKT

And you forgot to mention that, like insurance fraud, warranty fraud raises the costs to all consumers. So next time you go new car shopping or ***** about how expensive dealership service is, you can give partial thanks for that to anyone who doesn't take responsibility for their own actions and tries to pawn things like this off as a "warranty repair". It all adds up (see: Econ 101 Chapter - "There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch")

jay rick

Do you have any kind of tune?

bentz69

Will the whiners and non-helpfuls take your gripes and pointless analogies to PM. Ok? Thanks

Back on track.... Anyone else care to contribute some positive info as to what may be causing the issue? Or what they have tried already to solve the problem?

EC suggested that the MAF’s are losing their calibration data during the flash process. They suggested disconnecting the battery for 8 hours and on the first startup, let the car idle for atleast 5 minutes them do some light driving.

Although that didnt work, the issue seems less noticable in C mode but its still there.

They now suggested to clean the MAFs with MAF cleaner. So its worth a shot I suppose but I doubt it will work.

A comment EC made that I found interesting was, "ironically, everyone with the problem has modified intake systems." EC doesnt seem to want to acknowledge the problem but instead point fingers at other things.

kimeran

Car was 100% stock P31 when I experienced the issues

kimeran

People like you live on the Merc forums as well
There are some douchebags like you on the BMW forums as well.

Are you actually gonna sit here and blame the high dealership prices on the guys that claim from motorplan for their modded cars?

Explain to me, I send my car to Merc for a faulty wiper mechanism, and Merc cancels my motorplan when they find headers on the car and refuse to replace my wiper mechanism. My headers and wiper mechanism have no relation whatsoever. That's general business practice to you?

Merc robs you and me just as much, if not more than the guy trying to claim from motorplan for his modded car.

Diabolis

I have no horse in this race, but the douchebag here is you for condoning illegal behaviour that ends up costing everyone money, not BLKROKT for pointing it out. And, Merc would never refuse to absorb the cost for warranty work on your wipers because you have headers installed. However, if you end up stripping the threads on the block because said headers are a little off, they indeed have every right to refuse warranty repair on the same (even after you end up putting the OEM ones back on). The OP flashed the ECU and has a problem directly related to engine operation. If the problem he has was with the wipers or headlight ballasts failing, he would indeed have a point and we'd be advising him (well, at least I would) that one has nothing to do with the other, which is clearly not the case here and which you too apparently failed to grasp.

mwetter

Back on subject...

Mine is also a completely stock 2102 p31 with a recent factory reflash to the ECU to get it back to stock and any updates as I bought used. I will own the possibility that a previous owners tune might have stressed a system on the car that is still present, but IMHO this does not feel like a "slipping clutch" or other mechanical failure. It really acts more like the computer trying to "smooth out a shift" or "feather throttle tip-in". The symptoms were not there with the 3rd party tune (not EuroCharge). Possibly something Benz added to a recent update to help cure another complaint that only manifests at a specific RPM and throttle position? The only physical change to the car that correlates sine 40k trans fluid flush. I suppose the wrong amount of fluid or some debris could impact the the valve body and allow some strange behavior. Anybody else with this issue have a recent fluid change?

bentz69

That's really what I was thinking at first and I've been looking for more forum members to either confirm or deny that it happens on their car with the mct.


The only thing I have to go by in stating that its "not normal" is 2 different MB techs have driven with me while I replicate the problem and they don't think its "normal".....but on the other hand, they have never seen this issue before and they admit that the 2012+ C63 doesn't typically come into the shop.


The one common thought that the techs and even shop foreman at the dealer feel is the issue is somehow software related and not mechanical

BLKROKT

Believe it or not, I actually might say something helpful here. I was thinking about this..... flash, reflash, flash to stock, flash to EC, reflash to stock, etc. You know, all that writing and rewriting of the ROM could conceivably have corrupted one or both ECU tune codes, couldn't it have? I've had one tune on my car for 2+ years, my EC V5 "Race" file, and never have any drivability or other issues that frequent flashers (no, not the perverted kind like jasonoff) seem to develop.

Might be worthwhile to contact EC and just have them send you a brand new tune to load on. And/or just try going back to a (new) V5 tune - V6 seems to give some people a funky experience anyway and, no knock on EC they're great, but might not be fully-cooked if you know what I mean. Could be something that simple.

I don't know if the constant flashing causes any sort of hardware issue, or if you need to wipe the ECU and load clean code first or what, this is all just a hunch. But all it takes is just a couple of those 1's and 0's to get miswritten along the way, and I bet that could manifest in any number of weird ways. Tunes essentially are just a hack of the ECU, and no matter how much we like our tuners they don't have the resources or same quality control as a Bosch or Mercedes do.

Check this thread. There may be something to this idea of corrupted files or tune "residue". https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...shing-ecu.html

JimGnitecki

I'm a semi-retired contract IT project manager, and I can tell you that with software, what BLKROKT says can indeed occur.

Most often, a software problem that arises in a sequential multi-update situation is related to configuration files that are sometimes NOT flashed over because they contain information that either a human user, human technician, or a software module itself, has "customized" to their/it specific needs, or has been using to "log" settings or parameters.

The re-flash, or planned corrective or improving "update", deliberately ignores these configuration files in some cases, so that the customized or logged information is not lost as a result of the re-flash/upgrade.

However, this sometimes results in incompatibilities that can range from minor inconvenience, through flaky behaviour, up to an outright crash of the software, when certain combinations of simultaneous variables are hit that the programmer never anticipated might occur.

Also, in some cases, a human software programmer that is modifying existing code "takes some short cuts" to make things easier, or extends the OEM capabilities by adding code modules that the OEM code does not know about and cannot always handle for every single combination of events that might occur.

In software development, we usually try to uncover these "bugs" and "incompatibilities" by exhaustive testing. But small coding firms simply don't have the resources to test as thoroughly as big OEMs.

Even the big OEMS sometimes basically admit they cannot handle all the changes that have been independently inserted by multiple programmers and firms, because the software is too complex and has too many semi-indepdent modules sourced from multiple suppliers. In those cases, an approach to upgrades that is often specified is that a series of patches and code upgrades to different modules must be applied in a prescribed order, as that is the only order that the OEM, even with its large resources, has actually tested. This is the case even on some commercial software systems whose cost runs in eight figures for the raw software.

We shouldn't be surprised if small tuning shops, with a handful of employees in total, prove to have only pretty basic testing capabilities. Glitches can occur. Unfortunately, on a vehicle, some glitches have the potential to do serious mechanical harm to hardware that is costly to repair or replace.

Simple example: The OEM for an automatic transmission with wet clutch plates tests to determine the acceptable rate of computer-managed progressive plate "lockup" under differing throttle conditions, so that starting from a dead stop is smoooooth for conservative drivers and soccer moms, but much quicker at high throttle openings and high rpm. The quicker action at high throttle openings and high rom is to prevent the incredibly high heat that results when clutch plates are "sanded by each other" for too long before fully locking together. The OEM has to ensure that BOTH of 2 things occur:

1. That the rate of lockup is fast enough to prevent overheating followed by rapid slipping and clutch damage symptoms

2. That the rate of lockup ios NOT so fast that both the clutch plates AND other drivetrain components in the load path are shocked with high instantaneous loads, and self destruct from THAT instead of burning up via heat! (I once had a tranny supplier supply a tranny that shifted so abruptly that on a normal pull away from a traffic light in city traffic, the rear tires broke loose each and every time. Fun for a few tries, but very destructive for a DD)

Naturally, the OEM assumes OEM engine power and torque when doing the required testing.

Do you think a small tuning shop has the resources to figure out the right progressive rate of lockup for a DIFFERENT tune than OEM? Even for a STOCK vehicle? And, how can the small shop POSSIBLY test for every reasonably possible combination of mods done by every individual owner?

Big shops like Roush and Shelby HAVE to do proper due diligence and testing, ebcause they have OEM contratcs, and if they screw up, they lose those big contracts. But small tuning shops?

Jim G

bentz69

Interesting thread....my sequence of events went like this


1)stock tune/stock car - no issues that I can honestly remember (as far as shifting BUT Im not 100% positive)


2)stock tune/row boxes/afe filters - no issues that I can honestly remember (as far as shifting)


3)flashed EC v6/row boxes/afe filers - shifting issues in C, S, S+ (surging rpms between 2-3 and 3-4 shift ONLY under partial throttle AND the car must be fully warmed up, doesn't happen when cold)


*made EC aware of the issue* - they suggested a battery disconnect overnight but it didn't work
4)flashed stock tune with only rev limiter removed (tune file EC gave me for a "blind" test) shifting issues in C, S, S+ (surging rpms between 2-3 and 3-4 shift ONLY under partial throttle AND the car must be fully warmed up, doesn't happen when cold) BUT was much less noticeable


5)flashed back to stock original tune still on the mygenuis. - shifting issues in C, S, S+ (surging rpms between 2-3 and 3-4 shift ONLY under partial throttle AND the car must be fully warmed up, doesn't happen when cold) BUT was much less noticeable


*brought the car to the dealer*
6)dealer did a shiftpoint adaptation relearn but the computer would only allow the procedure to be done in C mode. - problem no longer occurring in C mode but still happens in S and S+


*brought the car back to the dealer again*
7)dealer did a wetclutch relearn in C and S mode. They also updated the tcu software. No more surging rpms in C mode but still happened slightly in S and S+.


both trips to the dealer also resulted in NO codes found in the ecu or tcu. Fluid level in the trans was within spec and if I remember correctly, something about testing the flow was done and it was within spec as well.


drove the car for a about a week (maybe 250 miles)


*advised EC of the updated tcu software, I reset the mygenuis to stock, sent the cars id to EC and they sent me back a new V6 file*


This is where I currently stand...
8)new v6 file/row boxes/afe filters - BASICALLY BACK TO #3 - shifting issues in C, S, S+ (surging rpms between 2-3 and 3-4 shift ONLY under partial throttle AND the car must be fully warmed up, doesn't happen when cold)


So Im not sure what to make of all this but the tune certainly livens up the car even though the issue persists

JimGnitecki

bentz69: Read my posts directly above yours in this thread.

Jim G

bentz69

I did and it makes sense. But the problem is that EC says they don't touch tcu maps and they seem extremely tight lipped as to what other settings they make adjustments to in their tune. So its very hard on my end to figure out what is causing the issue


And when EC sits there and tells me that they have another customer with the same car ('14 507) with the same tune/mods and that car doesn't have the problem Im having, then they assume its not the tune and blame something else

JimGnitecki

Yes, I figured that. They are pretty unlikely to voluntarily agree they did something that might have hurt your car.

As for their argument that someone else with the "same car" does not have a problem is meaningless, because:

1. His car or your car may be differently modified with OTHER mods

2. You and the other driver may drive very differently

Do not discount the importance of no.2. I am averaging over 17 mpg per US gallon because I use the power only a few times on a given ride and rarely use full throttle (I simply don't have the roads where I can even if I wanted to). But I understand that the average mpg on this forum is WAY less. That means of course that I am far easier on my drivetrain than most others.

Jim G

Jasonoff

I'm sure the DimSport flash process contains bugs. (SW bugs, not actual bugs like what live in BLKROKT's crotch...)

Back when I was having ESP module problems, the only logical explanation was my ECU sate. Flashing back and forth between a tune and OEM seemed to have fixed the problem. (I hope I didn't just jinx myself)

Absolutely zero physical intervention fixed the problem.

bentz69, I'd try fully charging your battery. Then while it's is still connected to the charger try flashing back to OE and reset the adaptations. Drive around for a few days to see how it behaves. If all is good, write your tune back (maybe with a charger connected) and see what happens.

bentz69

Going by Eurochargeds opinion of stating the following...."ironically, everyone with the problem has modified intake systems"

I put the original air boxes, original filters, original charcoal filters, original MAFs back on the car. Unplugged the battery for a while and Ive been driving around in C mode for several days with no problems. Switched over to S mode and the problem is still there.

Go figure

roadtalontsi

cars with mct.....
sl63, cls63, e63, s63, c63, cl63. all the current real amg cars (meaning not 43's) other than cla/gla ,suv's and v12's have the mct.

transmission adaptations dont fix problems. no matter what they change it will ADAPT to your driving habits. so resetting and relearning will always be short term. I still dont see an issue. Id suggest checking fuel trim adaptations as vacuum leaks can really mess with the mct cars.

JimGnitecki

C mode might not provoke a shifting issue where S does simply because S mode gear changes are notably quicker in even the factory MB programming. A slower, gentler shift might expose problems that appear when the shift is faster and at a higher rpm, and therefore harsher.

Jim G

Celicasaur

Absolutely. My W124 flares like a mother hugger in S, so I drive it in Eco mode to make it less horrid.

Jasonoff

You try reverting back to OEM tune?

bentz69

I can pass the fuel trim idea along to the friends at the dealer. Ive been all over the engine bay a few times with lights, mirrors etc. All lines look good

Im starting to think this supposed issue is basically the transmission trying to smooth out the shift on purpose.

Basically, the trans is saying, you put me in S mode to drive aggressively and you decided to drive like a b*tch under this small window of partial throttle so I have to smooth out the shift for you....

But since I havent been able to drive a similiar car to confirm if I can replicate the problem, I can only speculate

Hmmmm....maybe it is normal

In one the previous posts I wrote what happened when I tried that. In a nutshell, putting the original tune file from the mygenius still had the problem in S and S+

EDIT....I just realized you were suggesting to revert back to the original tune AFTER all those original oem parts went back on the car. No, I didnt even think about that but thats a good idea. Ill try it