c32_amg_79

Eurocharged Canada posted this on their Facebook page today

jd_hinks

Not trying to add to the unicorn count but my my stock base line dyno was done on a dyno dynamics and my 507 put down 447hp I went 2 separate occasions and and got same result both times.

After I did my mods my car put down 488hp. With a 10% E85 addition on a mustang dyno that time. But frankly I don't give a s**t anymore what the exact numbers are on any dyno as long afr's are in check and their are gains to be seen after mods.

Agree 100% that the track is were it counts! Whether it's on the strip or the circuit.

jd_hinks

FYI. I am in no way saying that my previous dyno results are accurate. Due to the fact
My best 1/4 mile run was 12.14 @ 119 mph. On street tires. I should have put down a way better time with the power that was put down on the dyno.

DavesMeanE's

Time has very little to do with the power you make... trap speed IS however a GREAT gauge or power

I'd say 119mph is right in there for your output, DA has a big influence on the trap (by way of the power your car is actually making at the track)

Thanks

Dave

BLKROKT

Dave, with all due respect man because you're a really good sport about all of this, and I'm giving you a call next week to get my car setup with your magical tune. But C63s trapping 120mph are not 500whp cars. Like, they're just not man. What are you basing your thoughts on this off of because I can tell you that of the cars on the 1/4 mile list that are trapping up to the 123-124mph range (full weight cars), I don't recall that any of them have a "500whp" dyno chart. Most of the cars in that range are your standard headers/tune/filters and other little mods cars, and - up until this post today - they have all been generally registering anywhere from like 460-480whp.

I know it probably seems like I'm splitting hairs here, but so many guys here have been busting their asses for years chasing 500whp with way more mods than what's going on here. Something's just not making sense, and to me it looks like the 1/4-mile mph bar is artificially being lowered here to try and justify it. A 500rwhp 4100lb car (with driver) should be trapping around 125-126mph. The calculations and knowledge about this is as old as drag racing itself. It's just math/physics.

To get my 4100lb car to hit 122mph in 1/4 mile takes about 575hp. Figure 18% drivetrain loss (I used the known 17% of BMW's DCT and added 1% slop for our wet clutch setup). That would theoretically get me to 472whp which sounds just about spot on where it should be given the collective experience of hundreds of known results here for the same mods etc. A bone stock "507 Edition" using the same math would put down 416rwhp for example, which is also dead on. (for a unicorn - drivetrain loss may be even more than 18%)

Now do the same math working backwards for 125mph and 4100lbs, and you get 617hp - 18% = 506whp

That's just what the math says it takes. It's physics - how much power does it take to propel a weight to a specific velocity over a known distance. So until we see full weight naturally-aspirated C63's throwing down 125mph traps, they're not making 500whp. Especially not ones with just headers and a tune.

Infiniti

i love how my post goes unquestioned let alone the thread lolol

skratch77

Ops car baseline is 450whp let's just say he has the strongest built 156 and is putting down 420whp stock.

Like Dave said he put down 416whp on a stock 507. Lets say his car is a strong best and makes 420whp stock he is about 30whp above the strongest 156 ever put down.

So just minus 30whp and it puts him right around the 470 mark that is in line with all his supporting mods.

4ramin

I actually hit 509 or something once , it was not a correct reading.. how the car is strapped down , tire rating , tire pressure , gear your testing in and many other factors effect numbers ... go back to the same dyno and re-run and the car maybe down 50hp.. the only thing these dynos are good for is tuning rather then the size of your ***** for bragging rights ...

604 C63

So are you saying that you think he IS 30hp to the good originally or that the numbers are off by 30hp? Sorry, Im just unclear.

Im going with Occam's razor which says the the simplest answer is usually the correct one. And the simplest answer is that the numbers are off. Thats a lot easier explanation than a unicorn.

skratch77

I'm saying his base is 30-40rwhp to high so just minus that from 500 and u have your numbers

604 C63

Which would work out the same as most everyone else with similar setup.

JimGnitecki

There are some facts in the OP's dyno chart that are telling:

1. The dyno chart shows "STD" versus "SAE". The STD standard for dynoing is out of date and always produces a higher claimed/calculated power output than SAE, because it "corrects" to a standard set of conditions that inflate an engine's calculated power compared to the SAE correction factors. No reputable shop uses STD anymore, as the current standard has been SAE for well over a decade. Less reputable shops use STD because it produces a higher number that makes a customer feel good.

2. The OP's dyno chart actually does not show the ambient conditions for the dyno runs. Those conditions would be very telling - see point 3 below

3. Although the dyno chart shows "STD" it fails to show the correction factor used. My guess as to why it was omitted is that it was 1.05 or higher. If you study up on proper dyno correction factors, you will find that the higher the correction factor, the less trustworthy the calculated corrected power is. For example, a correction factor of just 1.05 means the result is basically garbage because the actual ambient conditions (barometric pressure, temperature, and humidity) at the time of the dyno run were so unusually bad a combination that the correction formula is basically inaccurate.

4. The other possibility is that the dyno calibration (calibration, not correction) has drifted away from the truth. Many things can cause this: a bad temperature sensor, bad barometric pressure sensor, bad humidity sensor, or a significant change in air flow within the dyno room. It can also be caused accidentally by a software upgrade error, or by stupid stuff like a new heat source too near a temperature sensor, or an AC outlet too near the humidity sensor.

And, regrettably, it is sometimes caused by a dyno operator artificially heating up the temperature sensor (with a heater or just a finger) to make it look like a run actually done at say 75 degrees was done at say 85 degrees. When the dyno software correctly applies the correction formula to a set of run data that includes an incorrect temperature reading, it will produce a calculated horsepower significantly higher than real, because the dyno computer thinks the car produced "x" raw uncorrected horsepower under unfavorably high ambient temperature conditions, so under "standardized" (i.e. corrected) conditions, it would produce significantly more than "x". This is how bad tuning shops that fail to deliver on a customer's power goals convince a customer they did so (Everyone believes a dyno chart, because, heck, "it's official").

I almost hate to agree with our resident self-annointed forum policemen, but in this case the evidence suggests they are probably right. The results are bogus, and either a quarter mile trap speed should be obtained as "proof" of actual power attained, or the car should be run on a different properly calibrated and properly run dyno unaffiliated with the tuner, and the results compared, to either prove "the miracle" or prove the error in the OP's chart. It's a huge claimed gain to get from simply "a better tune".

Jim G

604 C63

Lookit you. All killer, no filler. Nicely done. I knew you could do it. Well, I hoped you could

We didnt need a tour of the Rousch plant or anything! THIS is the Jim G you can be. Yes, it helps that you agree with me lol, but what I like here is that you didnt take a couple of side trips down Memory Lane and you stayed on point. Because of that, I actually read everything you wrote, and it was good, and sound, and reasoned.

And, this really has nothing to do with "policemen", this thread would draw this reaction on any site. I don't even care what it is showing as tuned horsepower, I have issue with a baseline of 450hp, stock. That tells me something is stinky right there, and after that it could say a thousand horsepower tuned for all that matters. The stock number is wonky, with no explanation for it other than "its special". There are ALWAYS guys thinking "my car is more powerful cos...cos.....cos....its MINE".
Magical thinking is gonna pull out the boo birds every time. Rightly so.

Infiniti

stock shelf tune and then the final number was the third flash jerry sent over.
SAE*

BadCompany

Agreed. As Jim said, part of the issue is the STD correction factor and it not being the new gold standard SAE. STD reads on average 4% higher than SAE because of the lower standard temperature and absolute pressure factors. That alone drops the OP's whp closer to "reasonable."

I wouldn't say that a shop isn't reputable if they use STD. I think NASCAR still uses it exclusively for testing. I think you just need to be aware that you can't compare STD to SAE and proclaim making "more" power. You can compare STD dynos to STD dynos. I also think the shop and tuner should be upfront about the correction factor...

mr747

This was the best I could get at this power level headers tune slicks and mix of ms109 and pump

I agree with blkrot 500whp will trap 126mph

Celicasaur

If EC can indeed start offering this much extra power on top of an off the shelf tune, the explanation must be that they're making developments in the VVT department up top, which is making significant changes in airflow/efficiency.

jd_hinks

Hahaha found this unicorn on YouTube? This guy claims 600+ HP and 500+ trq from and Ec v5 tune and ROW air boxes. Plus Apparently the only C63 that comes stock with black series brakes.

It's a funny one.

604 C63

It's not like this is posted in a BMW forum and we are all haters who don't want this to be true. We'd all LOVE to find out this is possible and has been done in a way where it won't grenade. Since it's been out for almost 12 years and this is the first time we've seen this motor with this much power stock or with these mods, that skepticism seems pretty reasonable to me. Until that stock power is explained to me, and it hasn't been, Ima call bull**** or error, especially since even if it was extra strong going in that power doesn't necessarily carry over to once it's been dialled. 30 extra hp going in isn't an automatic 30 hp coming out.

and yet no one answers that question. How do you explain the stock dyno rating? How do you explain 30+ hp more than any other factory m156?

SuckaGDog

LOL. I couldn't watch the whole video. What a joke!

betrezra

I worked with a guy who carried his dyno sheet in his pocket at work... he'd whip it out for the unsuspecting co-worker... oh yeah? look at this! My fire bird put down blah blah blah this weekend at the dyno bbq cook off! I'm the man.

ET's, and MPH do not lie.

Dyno numbers sell parts and tunes..... make the customer feel good all over.

arun.6ix

Take a look...

Vpatriota

Standard Black Series here - 420whp. Opened for questions regarding the numer (I think it wasn't 420, maybe a little less).

604 C63

Oh well. That proves it!?!?!?!

Its a pic of the car and the same dyno post from before.

arun.6ix

I said take a look because I think some clown here said let's see if eurocharged posts it and there it is. I'm going to run it on another dyno to see what I see get elsewhere.