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Did you tell them you had ROW?
Maybe OE adjusts the tune for the ROW?
Yes but not sure if it makes a difference.maybe Jeremy can chime in because there was a thread with the guy with custom intakes and he said he would adjust the tuning for them.
My sloppy transmission shifting in low gear under partial throttle has competely gone away with the stock boxes back in place. No more more surging/flaring or bouncy tach needle in low gears under partial throuttle. I can guarentee the clamps are tight and the air box is screwed down snug with both row and stock boxes.
Row's are completely sealed up with a silicone bead around the enitre lip and inside the outer edge between the box and sleeve. Silicone is definitly the better option. Retains its flexibility so when the clamp is tightented it wont break off from the pressure. Unfortuanly the snow has prevented me from putting them back on a testing.
put the sealed up row's with afe filters back on the car. Clamp is snug and screws are tight. LTFT got worse LOL. However, the transmission doesnt appear to have gone back to the same issues as before....but its hard to tell.
Pulled the carbon filter and plastic housing out of the stock boxes. There is a huge gap between the wall of the box and the plastic cylinder that was previously covered by the plastic carbon retainer. So its pretty clear that a good amount of air will flow into the motor without being registered if you remove this plastic retainer. However, even with the plastic retainer in place, there is still gap that will allow air to flow past the MAF without being registered. Perhaps that small gap is causing even the smallest increase in trims instead of being near zero for those with stock boxes? IDK.....
Here's what I see:
ROW boxes in ROW countries such as UK
The boxes were on the car since day 1, left the assembly line with them. They are old at this point. Sealing these helps the ltft
Once they are sealed, the car goes to normal ltft like single digit, because the car is tuned for these boxes from the factory.
ROW boxes in US. Everybody bought them brand new. Sealing them doesn't do anything as there is a clear resin inside. Even if there was a small reduction due to sealing, the ltft for US cars with ROW boxes will be high because the cars were not tuned for the ROW boxes.
US boxes in US cars. These boxes came with the car from the factory. They are old now. The sealing clear resin transforms in a yellow dust. Sealing these boxes works and will reduce the ltft to normal values, single digit.
ROW boxes in US cars, tuned. Seems like some tuners did account for the boxes, some didn't, the info is being gathered. If they are tuned the ltft for the ROW should be single digit to maximum 10. The 10 would be bank 1.
However, and here comes the confusing part, the cars will not throw a code, even if the ltft is as high as 27, because programmed in them is a different parameter "mixtrure formation", that's the one the car cares about, the ltft is only reported for compliance purposes. And for a ltft in the 20s the mixture formation is right in the middle of the range.
So why worry? In my case I'm hoping for improved drivability and maybe slightly better gas mileage, just in case we go back to a $4.50/gal cost, I plan to keep this car for a while.
I think at this point, everybody is confused to some degree
YUP
Originally Posted by Vladds
Here's what I see:
ROW boxes in ROW countries such as UK
The boxes were on the car since day 1, left the assembly line with them. They are old at this point. Sealing these helps the ltft
Once they are sealed, the car goes to normal ltft like single digit, because the car is tuned for these boxes from the factory.
ROW boxes in US. Everybody bought them brand new. Sealing them doesn't do anything as there is a clear resin inside. Even if there was a small reduction due to sealing, the ltft for US cars with ROW boxes will be high because the cars were not tuned for the ROW boxes.
US boxes in US cars. These boxes came with the car from the factory. They are old now. The sealing clear resin transforms in a yellow dust. Sealing these boxes works and will reduce the ltft to normal values, single digit.
ROW boxes in US cars, tuned. Seems like some tuners did account for the boxes, some didn't, the info is being gathered. If they are tuned the ltft for the ROW should be single digit to maximum 10. The 10 would be bank 1.
However, and here comes the confusing part, the cars will not throw a code, even if the ltft is as high as 27, because programmed in them is a different parameter "mixtrure formation", that's the one the car cares about, the ltft is only reported for compliance purposes. And for a ltft in the 20s the mixture formation is right in the middle of the range.
So why worry? In my case I'm hoping for improved drivability and maybe slightly better gas mileage, just in case we go back to a $4.50/gal cost, I plan to keep this car for a while.
I really dont care about the trims being high. I want the strange transmission behavior to stop and the stock boxes appear to fix that problem. For me its back to stock airboxes
On the other hand you would think that the tune would account for the row's when the tuner specifically asks you what mods you have. Appartently eurocharged doesnt make adjustments for that. Quite possibly OE does based on skratch's numbers
2012 C63;1971 280SE 3.5(Sold);2023 EQS 450 SUV 4 Matic (Wife's)
Originally Posted by Mort
Yes I think you should be able to remove the black plastic retainer for the carbon filter but don't touch the air horn.
Edit: It seems that it will be difficult to remove the charcoal filter cross brace without leaving a gap between the air horn and the filter box. If you do remove the CF mesh you will have to make sure that this gap is filled (silicone? or trim the mesh part that fills this gap and seal it back into place?) or you will get un-metered air flow past the MAF. Proceed at your own risk with this modification.
I edited my post above because it was based on incomplete data from my experience. My apologies to anyone that may have been inconvenienced from acting on this incomplete information.
From memory I was seeing high trims a while back but it was on a non header file while I was going through my exhaust setups.
It's just to damn cold to test out and we just got 16in of snow and last night was negative 12 out (-24c)
Now that I got my car dialed in with no pending codes for a few weeks I put on the base header file with all monitors on.
I will update if the trims stay low but I too was seeing 25-27 trims a while back.i just don't know if it was the header file or changing plugs,all o2 seniors and new mafs changed it.
I am leaning towards the latest file because I was having pending codes before with all the above changed.
I edited my post above because it was based on incomplete data from my experience. My apologies to anyone that may have been inconvenienced from acting on this incomplete information.
I realized that when I removed the plastic retainer. I cut a piece of the section off and glued it back in place to close the gap as much as possible and retain the somewhat stock airflow. BUT, even if the entire plastic retainer was still in place, there is gap between the retainer and the trumpet (as everyone calls it). The only way to seal it off would be to glue to retainer to the trumpet. But it was not designed like that from the factory. Makes me wonder if that gap is there on purpose to allow a little more air to pass through. However that air would be unregistered by the MAF. More mysteries
Partially blocked
air is still making its way through this section even if the entire plastic retainer is in place
air is always making its way through this section and past the MAF even if the plastic retainer is in place
2012 C63;1971 280SE 3.5(Sold);2023 EQS 450 SUV 4 Matic (Wife's)
Here is a pic of my stock air box tops with the CF still in place. It doesn't look like mine have any air leaking past the air horn (trumpet).
bentz69, yours may have gotten distorted a bit from taking the charcoal filter out and definitely from removing the filter support. Did you notice if it was originally sealed to the air horn or if the CF grill was just a press fit. Anyway it will need to be sealed so that no air leaks through there. I think the CF also has a seal strip on it that would help seal against the air horn and keep any air from passing through.
Here is a pic of my stock air box tops with the CF still in place. It doesn't look like mine have any air leaking past the air horn (trumpet).
Pull the carbon out and hold it to light. Is there any light showing through the flat part? Even if the trumpet and the carbon retainer sit flush, they are not one piece. Without a sealant there is air coming through.
Even the part I have the little arrow has air coming through. This is all probably ridiculous anyway but unregistered air is still unregistered air probably responsible for the positive Trims on the US stock boxes
I agree with you. It looks like a poor design on Benz's part.
Or let's go out on a limb here....maybe done purposely to still allow more air into the motor with the US boxes because of the decision to use a carbon filter? Maybe completely sealing that section of the US box drops the rated 451hp number another 5 digits of more As opposed to using the row box? Making a bigger difference between us spec cars and the rest of the world? Maybe the Maf table by Benz was scaled a certain way to allow a huge window of difference for the purpose of not throwing a code....list goes on and my head hurts lol
I have the non us C63 which means row box stock. My LTFT are bank 1 around -0.8 to -3 and bank 2 into 3-6 so i guess there is no reason in the us with row bow to record such high.
i read some where that the MAF sensors neen to intalled in opposite direction with row box?
Anyone sealed the edges round the metal sleeve and fixed the issue?
ive done another Bosch lambda second in 10 months and 1200 miles
Didn't solve it for me...
Originally Posted by Rick X Joaquim
I have the non us C63 which means row box stock. My LTFT are bank 1 around -0.8 to -3 and bank 2 into 3-6 so i guess there is no reason in the us with row bow to record such high.
i read some where that the MAF sensors neen to intalled in opposite direction with row box?
It's a mystery at this point. No-one has come up with an answer in regards to the high long term trims on US spec cars using ROW boxes
Bentz69, I'm having the same odd transmission lag/delay in low gear/comfort mode as you. ROW airboxes on my car. Sounds like a switch back to stock cured the issue for you?
Bentz69, I'm having the same odd transmission lag/delay in low gear/comfort mode as you. ROW airboxes on my car. Sounds like a switch back to stock cured the issue for you?
I did my own testing and now I got my trims in the freaking 25s on both banks and they fluctuate alot.
I put stock boxes and was seeing -trims for the first time and now my car is all over the place swapping boxes and trying new or old mafs makes no difference.
the only variation is the crazy weather swings we are having.
like 40 degree changes so the car might need to adapt but one thing I noticed with stock boxes is that the stay solid more and dont bounce around.
I think it's the different velocity stack that is causing turbulence at idle and works better under acceleration.
2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Originally Posted by skratch77
I think it's the different velocity stack that is causing turbulence at idle and works better under acceleration.
This is probably it, and supported by the fact that my Carbonio LTFTs are pegged at +25% at idle. Whatever the cause, I don’t see what all the fuss is about. My car runs great. Maybe LTFTs are not the root of whatever problem people think there is here.
Just put rows back in and pro drys and drove around for a bit.
fully warmed up I'm seeing 15-18 on both banks but either one can be 5 points off depending on how the car wants to be.
under throttle I'm seeing 13-15 and stays pretty solid.the thing I noticed is with stock boxes I was seeing negative numbers and around 3-5 on both banks.
just as I thought the car was running perfectly and pulling really hard I got a check engine light.
bank 1 stock rich code and bank 1 post cat code too rich.
****ing hate having headers as it's just a huge pain in the *** and needs to be custom tuned to dial out these o2 codes.
I can't have gone through sensors this fast can I ? 3k miles and no issues and now codes again.
01-05-2018, 04:20 PM
