My C63 handling around-freezing snow pretty badly
12-31-2017, 09:36 PM
#26
Super Member
Pirelli sottozeros in 235/35/19 and 255/35/19 on stock rims is getting me through the few inches of snow/ice/slush we have seen here with no problems. Love them so far. Little noisy above 70mph though
01-01-2018, 12:21 PM
#27
Super Member
Have a look at some Nokian Hakkapeliitta R2 tires. I have them on my C250 for winter, and I can't believe how much grip and control they have even in the worst possible situations, even in direct comparison to other sets of brand new winter tires I've had
01-01-2018, 12:27 PM
#28
MBWorld Fanatic!
This is my first winter with my C63 and the last few days have been bad.
I am a pretty recent transplant to Vancouver Island - September of 2016. Supposedly we historically get very little ice and snow here - that's one of the key reasons we moved here - but I guess the past 2 winters have been "unusual" then, because last winter was very bad (but I had a different car then), and this winter just got ugly within the past few days. Normally, we apparently got a lot of rain in the winter, with ice and snow being rare, but within the past week and a half we have gotten real snow. And, since the temperature has been slightly colder than the supposed normal, it has NOT melted away the same day it falls like it supposedly did before, but rather has either remained as a very light (maybe 1 inch?) snow cover, or turned into slush and then rutted, but not very thick, snow pack with ice in some parking areas.
When I bought my 2012 C63 coupe last spring, it had almost new Toyo Proxes Plus 4 tires in the correct MB-recommended 19 inch size sizes front and back, and these are prominently marked as "Mud and snow" tires. Ha!
I have previously lived in REAL wintery spots like Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, Toronto Ontario, Canada, and Minneapolis, Minnesota for many years at a time, and have almost always run "V8 high performance" cars, which included 4 Corvettes and half a dozen Mustang GTs, as well as a number of pickup trucks. I have always used my cars as daily drivers - no "winter beaters" for wintry or wet weather. I've driven those 4 Corvettes, with their normal "summer high performance" tires right after, or DURING 6"+ snowstorms and NEVER got stuck or slid. (I am a pretty experienced winter driver)
But now . . .
At church last Sunday I had parked my C63 nose down on a VERY gentle downslope, on less than an inch of snow over gravel. When I tried to back out after the service, using "Comfort reverse" as opposed to my normal "Sport" (comfort uses 2nd gear from a stop in both forward and reverse), the tires immediately just spun. I had to have 3 friends push the car out of the parking spot.
On Tuesday, we parked the C63 in a snow covered gravel parking lot at a nearby coastline beach for 40 minutes. The nose of the car was on a slight UPHILL When we returned, again the car was unable to back out of the slot, even though there was a slight DOWNHILL slope in trying to do so! (Maybe the warm tires melted the snow under them and then it refroze while we hiked for 40 minutes?). Again it took a couple of people pushing to get it to where it got traction.
With both of these incidents, I was to put it mildly, pretty surprised, based on my prior experience with high performance rear wheel drive V8 cars on snow - many of which did not have the traction control now standard on most cars!
Because our weather is supposed to be so mild here, because I am retired and so don't commute, and because the vast majority of our driving is short urban trips right here in town, with only a highway trip once per week typically, and NOT schedule-constrained so I can simply avoid "bad weather", I have resisted getting snow tires. I dislike the idea of ugly steel wheels, "square" tire size, and twice-yearly wheel/tire changes. But now, I am reassessing. And frankly, I'm not at all sure that winter tires would make enough of a difference based on what I experienced these past few days.
It's made more complicated by 3 things that are not "the car's fault":
- My wife dislikes the car and won't drive it. She views it as too complex, intimidating, and too powerful. This traction problem does not help her perception . . .
- My wife is currently 3/4 done a 9 month career training course that will require her to begin driving to and from work daily, in any weather, and of course I had no idea she would dislike the car when we bought it last Spring
- A new discovery mentioned only recently to us is that my wife's new career will require her to go to multiple different locations, sometimes daily, and park in typically tight parking lots with high public turnover where door dings or worse become a real probability
The C63 obviously does not "fit" too well now given these 3 recent realities.
Yeah, we could buy a second car but that seems stupid because only one of us works, so we need only one car, and because given our government-run insurance, and despite both of us having 40+ year perfect driving records, it costs $140 per MONTH to insure the ONE car (and, incredibly, another $143 per mo th for the motorcycle!). And I really don't want to maintain, and hand wash every week, TWO cars (no decent car wash in town so I have to do it myself).
I have been thinking a LOT about what to do with all this, even before this traction issue arose, and the addition of the traction issue just added an important safety dimension - and sheer practicality dimension - that I am not confident that winter tires would solve.
So, as one step in helping me sort this all out, I'm going to ask:
Do winter tires make a BIG improvement on the C63 - big enough to make the car safe in wintry conditions, or would that be throwing money away? I know some of you on the forum have or are running winter tires seasonally. Does it make the car reliably usable for daily commuting or am I kidding myself that that would make sufficient difference?
Jim G
I am a pretty recent transplant to Vancouver Island - September of 2016. Supposedly we historically get very little ice and snow here - that's one of the key reasons we moved here - but I guess the past 2 winters have been "unusual" then, because last winter was very bad (but I had a different car then), and this winter just got ugly within the past few days. Normally, we apparently got a lot of rain in the winter, with ice and snow being rare, but within the past week and a half we have gotten real snow. And, since the temperature has been slightly colder than the supposed normal, it has NOT melted away the same day it falls like it supposedly did before, but rather has either remained as a very light (maybe 1 inch?) snow cover, or turned into slush and then rutted, but not very thick, snow pack with ice in some parking areas.
When I bought my 2012 C63 coupe last spring, it had almost new Toyo Proxes Plus 4 tires in the correct MB-recommended 19 inch size sizes front and back, and these are prominently marked as "Mud and snow" tires. Ha!
I have previously lived in REAL wintery spots like Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, Toronto Ontario, Canada, and Minneapolis, Minnesota for many years at a time, and have almost always run "V8 high performance" cars, which included 4 Corvettes and half a dozen Mustang GTs, as well as a number of pickup trucks. I have always used my cars as daily drivers - no "winter beaters" for wintry or wet weather. I've driven those 4 Corvettes, with their normal "summer high performance" tires right after, or DURING 6"+ snowstorms and NEVER got stuck or slid. (I am a pretty experienced winter driver)
But now . . .
At church last Sunday I had parked my C63 nose down on a VERY gentle downslope, on less than an inch of snow over gravel. When I tried to back out after the service, using "Comfort reverse" as opposed to my normal "Sport" (comfort uses 2nd gear from a stop in both forward and reverse), the tires immediately just spun. I had to have 3 friends push the car out of the parking spot.
On Tuesday, we parked the C63 in a snow covered gravel parking lot at a nearby coastline beach for 40 minutes. The nose of the car was on a slight UPHILL When we returned, again the car was unable to back out of the slot, even though there was a slight DOWNHILL slope in trying to do so! (Maybe the warm tires melted the snow under them and then it refroze while we hiked for 40 minutes?). Again it took a couple of people pushing to get it to where it got traction.
With both of these incidents, I was to put it mildly, pretty surprised, based on my prior experience with high performance rear wheel drive V8 cars on snow - many of which did not have the traction control now standard on most cars!
Because our weather is supposed to be so mild here, because I am retired and so don't commute, and because the vast majority of our driving is short urban trips right here in town, with only a highway trip once per week typically, and NOT schedule-constrained so I can simply avoid "bad weather", I have resisted getting snow tires. I dislike the idea of ugly steel wheels, "square" tire size, and twice-yearly wheel/tire changes. But now, I am reassessing. And frankly, I'm not at all sure that winter tires would make enough of a difference based on what I experienced these past few days.
It's made more complicated by 3 things that are not "the car's fault":
- My wife dislikes the car and won't drive it. She views it as too complex, intimidating, and too powerful. This traction problem does not help her perception . . .
- My wife is currently 3/4 done a 9 month career training course that will require her to begin driving to and from work daily, in any weather, and of course I had no idea she would dislike the car when we bought it last Spring
- A new discovery mentioned only recently to us is that my wife's new career will require her to go to multiple different locations, sometimes daily, and park in typically tight parking lots with high public turnover where door dings or worse become a real probability
The C63 obviously does not "fit" too well now given these 3 recent realities.
Yeah, we could buy a second car but that seems stupid because only one of us works, so we need only one car, and because given our government-run insurance, and despite both of us having 40+ year perfect driving records, it costs $140 per MONTH to insure the ONE car (and, incredibly, another $143 per mo th for the motorcycle!). And I really don't want to maintain, and hand wash every week, TWO cars (no decent car wash in town so I have to do it myself).
I have been thinking a LOT about what to do with all this, even before this traction issue arose, and the addition of the traction issue just added an important safety dimension - and sheer practicality dimension - that I am not confident that winter tires would solve.
So, as one step in helping me sort this all out, I'm going to ask:
Do winter tires make a BIG improvement on the C63 - big enough to make the car safe in wintry conditions, or would that be throwing money away? I know some of you on the forum have or are running winter tires seasonally. Does it make the car reliably usable for daily commuting or am I kidding myself that that would make sufficient difference?
Jim G
Around Victoria and Sidney snow comes and goes quickly and rarely do we see more than 2-3 cm but the rest of the island gets more snow than you think. We always had 2-3 good dumps in Chemainus but even that has changed recently.
I have had 2wd Es and two 4Matic Es and I would not drive them in the winter without winter tires (now maybe all weathers) but if you think you can run summers below 7C you are just kidding yourself.
I got 18 inch rims last winter and a recommended inexpensive winter for my 2013 C63 sedan and they sucked huge. My kid is wearing them out on his Kia Soul.
I put out $1400 for 18 x 234/40 Hakkapeliita R2s as recommended on BA for this winter. Now I have not run them in snow but have been up and down island in heavy rain at 4C and they gave me great confidence going through the ususal standing water and rivers running across the road. My expectations are they will be extremely good in our snow.
The other option is the studded 9 but most think they are unnecessary.
The thing that puzzles me is why, given the pending load being placed on your wife in her new job, why you would insist she drive a car which she clearly dislikes with a lot of power even in C. Why not pick up a 2-3 yr old RAV 4 or similar car with all wheel drive and all weather (not All Season) tires. Safer, cheaper to run particularly since it seems she has a lot of travel in her job and inexpensive to maintain.
01-01-2018, 12:38 PM
#29
MBWorld Fanatic!
It's like the first time you get on a real summer tire off of an all season and realize how much you're leaving on the table...
Jim, get Hakka's and rest easy.
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Funkwagen (01-01-2018)
01-01-2018, 01:09 PM
#30
MBWorld Fanatic!
Every car of the 11 I have had have had 2 reverse gears except the W124 Es, the R170 and the B.
01-01-2018, 01:12 PM
#31
MBWorld Fanatic!
I mentioned the hakka's above, glad someone else mentioned them. I put R2's on my Audi RS4 a few years ago and the car was so. effing. fun. in the snow. It was insane.
It's like the first time you get on a real summer tire off of an all season and realize how much you're leaving on the table...
Jim, get Hakka's and rest easy.
It's like the first time you get on a real summer tire off of an all season and realize how much you're leaving on the table...
Jim, get Hakka's and rest easy.
Kal Tire is the only place on the island to get Nokian Tires and they will not sell them online.
01-01-2018, 01:17 PM
#32
MBWorld Fanatic!
01-02-2018, 10:19 PM
#33
<div style="text-align:left;">I won’t repeat everything else but I bought winters immediately after first snow. 4x225 per recommendations but 4x235 may be better.<br /><br />much debate still in the square set up but:<br />a. You can rotate and get three winters out of each set<br />b. Don’t think of this as an addition expense in the long run... you’re wearing one set of tires or the other... your summers last longer now.<br /><br /></div>
Last edited by Dogtag114; 01-03-2018 at 12:54 AM.
01-03-2018, 12:30 AM
#34
Super Member
Thread Starter
I won’t repear everything else but I bought winters immediately after first snow. 4x225 per recommendations but 4x235 may be better.
much debate still in the square set up but:
a. You can rotate and get three winters out of each set
b. Don’t think of this as an addition expense in the long run... you’re wearing one set of tires or the other... your summers last longer now.
much debate still in the square set up but:
a. You can rotate and get three winters out of each set
b. Don’t think of this as an addition expense in the long run... you’re wearing one set of tires or the other... your summers last longer now.
Jim G
01-03-2018, 07:35 AM
#35
MBWorld Fanatic!
We had light snow and some ice around here, I had time to test the Blizzaks. These are what I need with this car, to feel comfortable driving it in snow and such. I can brake with confidence and even if the car will drift a bit in fast turns, traction control slows it and the tires get grip in less than a foot (tried this in a parking lot). The car will go up and start and go up on an uphill with no problem. The tires are noisy over 60 MPH on dry roads and do as good as a quality all season in rain.
01-03-2018, 08:57 AM
#36
MBWorld Fanatic!
The rotation thing is worth going with the square set up. On rims this is an $80 cost annually to change them between summers and they will last more than 3 seasons. Trust me. They do.
The other thing is that if you don't use seperate rims you have to pay to strip the summer tires off your rims, mount the winters, balance and remount them on the car. This is more like $60 per wheel x 4.
Then spring comes and repeat.
This is not IMHO good for the bead to be stretching them over the rim getting them off and on twice a year.
Decent rims can be had for $169 (CDN) and my experience is you can sell them as an extra with the car when you let it go.
After some calculation I opted for the wider winter tire and got the recommended 235/40 R18 on BA.
The other thing is that if you don't use seperate rims you have to pay to strip the summer tires off your rims, mount the winters, balance and remount them on the car. This is more like $60 per wheel x 4.
Then spring comes and repeat.
This is not IMHO good for the bead to be stretching them over the rim getting them off and on twice a year.
Decent rims can be had for $169 (CDN) and my experience is you can sell them as an extra with the car when you let it go.
After some calculation I opted for the wider winter tire and got the recommended 235/40 R18 on BA.
01-03-2018, 11:53 AM
#37
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Sigh... so much wrong information here.
First of all, it's not about SNOW tires and grip - it's about WINTER tires. By far the biggest difference is in the rubber compound used and how soft it is at freezing and below freezing temperatures. The rubber in summer and "all-season" tires (which may be acceptable for use year-round by retirees in Florida) by their very design get to the consistency of hockey pucks when the temperature drops close to freezing. Grip in the snow is largely a result of how much the rubber can deform, not just the number of the little ridges on the surface. If said tire surface - with all the little ridges - is made of concrete, you'd get zero grip.
As for tire rotation, one thing that you don't want to do on a high-powered car is rotate the tires in the usual cross pattern (i.e. FL to RR) because this makes the tires rotate in the opposite direction. Even with non-directional tires, once you mount a tire and start applying some serious torque to it in one particular direction, the belts inside the tire carcass twist and settle in that particular direction of rotation. Applying said torque in the opposite direction now twists the carcass in the opposite direction which can cause the belts to separate and you get a nice blowout when you put your foot down. MB recommends running the same size winter F and R tires on AMGs so that you can "rotate" them F to R - but always on the same side of the car, not in the cross pattern that works for the Priii being driven by the retirees in Florida.
First of all, it's not about SNOW tires and grip - it's about WINTER tires. By far the biggest difference is in the rubber compound used and how soft it is at freezing and below freezing temperatures. The rubber in summer and "all-season" tires (which may be acceptable for use year-round by retirees in Florida) by their very design get to the consistency of hockey pucks when the temperature drops close to freezing. Grip in the snow is largely a result of how much the rubber can deform, not just the number of the little ridges on the surface. If said tire surface - with all the little ridges - is made of concrete, you'd get zero grip.
As for tire rotation, one thing that you don't want to do on a high-powered car is rotate the tires in the usual cross pattern (i.e. FL to RR) because this makes the tires rotate in the opposite direction. Even with non-directional tires, once you mount a tire and start applying some serious torque to it in one particular direction, the belts inside the tire carcass twist and settle in that particular direction of rotation. Applying said torque in the opposite direction now twists the carcass in the opposite direction which can cause the belts to separate and you get a nice blowout when you put your foot down. MB recommends running the same size winter F and R tires on AMGs so that you can "rotate" them F to R - but always on the same side of the car, not in the cross pattern that works for the Priii being driven by the retirees in Florida.
01-03-2018, 11:57 AM
#38
For someone that seems this experienced with winter driving, I am surprised that you did not consider Toyo Proxes 4 are not meant for snow and ice driving... Put good WINTER tires on there and you'll be fine. Yes, the C63 is a bit more to handle when getting off the line due to its weight and lack of ability to control the clutches but once you get used to it, its fine. Not great, not good, fine.
01-03-2018, 11:57 AM
#39
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Oh, and swapping tires on and off the rims just stretches and weakens the beads, which then causes them to pop during a high-speed turn... fun!
01-03-2018, 12:11 PM
#40
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For someone that seems this experienced with winter driving, I am surprised that you did not consider Toyo Proxes 4 are not meant for snow and ice driving... Put good WINTER tires on there and you'll be fine. Yes, the C63 is a bit more to handle when getting off the line due to its weight and lack of ability to control the clutches but once you get used to it, its fine. Not great, not good, fine.
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Ludedude (01-03-2018)
01-03-2018, 01:09 PM
#41
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Sigh... so much wrong information here.
First of all, it's not about SNOW tires and grip - it's about WINTER tires. By far the biggest difference is in the rubber compound used and how soft it is at freezing and below freezing temperatures. The rubber in summer and "all-season" tires (which may be acceptable for use year-round by retirees in Florida) by their very design get to the consistency of hockey pucks when the temperature drops close to freezing. Grip in the snow is largely a result of how much the rubber can deform, not just the number of the little ridges on the surface. If said tire surface - with all the little ridges - is made of concrete, you'd get zero grip.
As for tire rotation, one thing that you don't want to do on a high-powered car is rotate the tires in the usual cross pattern (i.e. FL to RR) because this makes the tires rotate in the opposite direction. Even with non-directional tires, once you mount a tire and start applying some serious torque to it in one particular direction, the belts inside the tire carcass twist and settle in that particular direction of rotation. Applying said torque in the opposite direction now twists the carcass in the opposite direction which can cause the belts to separate and you get a nice blowout when you put your foot down. MB recommends running the same size winter F and R tires on AMGs so that you can "rotate" them F to R - but always on the same side of the car, not in the cross pattern that works for the Priii being driven by the retirees in Florida.
First of all, it's not about SNOW tires and grip - it's about WINTER tires. By far the biggest difference is in the rubber compound used and how soft it is at freezing and below freezing temperatures. The rubber in summer and "all-season" tires (which may be acceptable for use year-round by retirees in Florida) by their very design get to the consistency of hockey pucks when the temperature drops close to freezing. Grip in the snow is largely a result of how much the rubber can deform, not just the number of the little ridges on the surface. If said tire surface - with all the little ridges - is made of concrete, you'd get zero grip.
As for tire rotation, one thing that you don't want to do on a high-powered car is rotate the tires in the usual cross pattern (i.e. FL to RR) because this makes the tires rotate in the opposite direction. Even with non-directional tires, once you mount a tire and start applying some serious torque to it in one particular direction, the belts inside the tire carcass twist and settle in that particular direction of rotation. Applying said torque in the opposite direction now twists the carcass in the opposite direction which can cause the belts to separate and you get a nice blowout when you put your foot down. MB recommends running the same size winter F and R tires on AMGs so that you can "rotate" them F to R - but always on the same side of the car, not in the cross pattern that works for the Priii being driven by the retirees in Florida.
Similarly, anyone who has driven a car in winter conditions and thinks an all season aka 3 season works just does not understand the chemistry you addressed. The most recent answer to that is the so called All Weather which is designed to run at below 7C temperatures but they are more a hybrid between an AS and a Winter in tread design with a compound that will not be as wear resistant in summer because of the compromise to function under 7C. AWs do not stop as well as AS nor do Winters.
I believe if you want to cheap out on winter tires, particularly if you live in snow prone areas or evern areas where snow is infrequent but it is wet and usually below 7C you put your car at risk for sake of $1000-1500 which is peanuts in the big scheme of things
01-03-2018, 01:23 PM
#42
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01-03-2018, 03:03 PM
#43
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01-04-2018, 12:30 PM
#44
Member
I put some Blizzaks on it and it was unstoppable. Possibly the best snow car I’ve ever driven—including Explorers, RX300... Maybe the Expedition was better.
Bottom line is, with the OP’s situation, a cheap set of snows will be so much better.
TC
01-04-2018, 03:08 PM
#45
MBWorld Fanatic!
As for tire rotation, one thing that you don't want to do on a high-powered car is rotate the tires in the usual cross pattern (i.e. FL to RR) because this makes the tires rotate in the opposite direction. Even with non-directional tires, once you mount a tire and start applying some serious torque to it in one particular direction, the belts inside the tire carcass twist and settle in that particular direction of rotation. Applying said torque in the opposite direction now twists the carcass in the opposite direction which can cause the belts to separate and you get a nice blowout when you put your foot down.
01-04-2018, 04:25 PM
#46
Super Member
Jim, I think the best solution is to keep the car, and to trade in your wife.
She doesn't like the C63, damn, she needs help.
She doesn't like the C63, damn, she needs help.
01-04-2018, 06:47 PM
#47
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01-09-2018, 02:15 AM
#48
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It does - as does reversing. My guess - and I am guessing here - would be that the weight and weight transfer also play a role and that the sum total of the forces experienced while braking are nowhere near the forces experienced under acceleration (unless you have a 50/50 weight distribution and also spend 50% of the time accelerating and 50% threshold braking) as the carcass plies still tend to settle in one direction, but I don't know why.
01-09-2018, 02:30 AM
#49
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01-09-2018, 05:58 PM
#50
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