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-   C63 AMG (W204) (https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w204-93/)
-   -   Engine Ka-pow (https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w204/719157-engine-ka-pow.html)

Hedge-Hog 08-23-2018 09:20 PM
Engine Ka-pow
 
Hi,

Sorry in advance but I did do a search and haven't seen anything within recent time and in my area. I also haven't visited this forum since I purchased the car almost 10 years ago.

So I have a 2009 C63 (M156 motor?) and it is a very early VIN. Just driving around normally and the Coolant warning message came on and, almost immediately, white smoke poured out the back. Pulled over and see milky sludgy oil. Had it towed home and did some searching to find this known issue with head bolts. Naturally, panic sets in and I called my dealership. He's heard of it but never dealt with anything like this (he claims).

Anyway, my car is way past warranty (purchased new) and it's got a 85,000KM+ on it. Dealer quoted CAD$65K for the motor and $40K+ for service. MB Canada won't help (said it's way too old). I'm the the Vancouver, BC area. All the 3rd-party shop can't/won't touch an AMG rebuild save one shop. I used to use him before and he claims to have started importing AMG way back before MB bought out AMG. And recommends getting a junked car, take the motor, rebuild with new bolt and gasket. But that's still CAD$30K..,pretty sure my car was worth much less than that even when running.

What options would I have? Is this a parts car now? Where would I list this?

Thanks in advance.

Hedwig

K507 08-23-2018 10:03 PM
This sounds like the dreaded head bolt issue...rebuild or replace.

BLKROKT 08-23-2018 11:16 PM
Sorry to hear, that sucks. You might have gotten lucky and not damaged too much if you shut it down in time. Only way to tell is to have someone start taking it apart. Might get away with just new headbolts (~$5k) but you’ll need to take it to someone who knows what they’re doing. Plenty of Vancouver guys here who can recommend a shop. Good luck.

dubgarage 08-23-2018 11:46 PM
Im in vancouver too...Stay away from the dealership theres quite a few shops that deal with mercedes that can help you out

J0HN_R1 08-24-2018 12:13 AM
While I know it's an expensive engine, I find it hard to believe that a complete 6.2L long-block (even with a P30/P31 package, and even in CDN $) would cost $65,000.

Why would anything else need to be replaced ? And $40,000 in labor ? GTFOH...

:hay: <---- you waving "bye" to that MB dealership.

Hedge-Hog 08-24-2018 01:27 PM
Originally Posted by K507 (Post 7537073)
This sounds like the dreaded head bolt issue...rebuild or replace.
Sadly, that's what I said in the original post. It's one or the other or abandon and get whatever scraps I can for it.


Originally Posted by BLKROKT (Post 7537134)
Sorry to hear, that sucks. You might have gotten lucky and not damaged too much if you shut it down in time. Only way to tell is to have someone start taking it apart. Might get away with just new headbolts (~$5k) but you’ll need to take it to someone who knows what they’re doing. Plenty of Vancouver guys here who can recommend a shop. Good luck.
Thx but it is dead. Dealer charged to look into it. Claims TSB meant nothing and it was my responsibility to know and seek out paying them to fix the head-bolts. I've checked a lot of recommended Vancouver area "AMG service" shops and none except one was willing to do anything with it. :(


Originally Posted by dubgarage (Post 7537149)
Im in vancouver too...Stay away from the dealership theres quite a few shops that deal with mercedes that can help you out
Was told by MB Canada to go there first...I called about 5-8 shops prior and got "no thanks" each time, save one.


Originally Posted by J0HN_R1 (Post 7537162)
While I know it's an expensive engine, I find it hard to believe that a complete 6.2L long-block (even with a P30/P31 package, and even in CDN $) would cost $65,000.

Why would anything else need to be replaced ? And $40,000 in labor ? GTFOH...

:hay: <---- you waving "bye" to that MB dealership.
I think I have to wave "bye" to the car. Cost of car down the drain. I've read in the MB UK forums that the motor does cost more than the car. I guess I can see where parts and labour would be pricier than a manufactured product. But the fact that I was not told I could have mitigated this with a head bolt replacement irks me plenty. MB's attitude (I called them) was "what do you expect, you have an old car and it's out of warranty". So no partial compensation, assistance, whatever. Dealer is asking so much that the service manager is recommending purchasing a new AMG.


Anyway, if anyone from the GVRD area has any recommended shops that are willing to do AMG rebuild, please let me know. I know this feeling from track toys where I am willing to eat my cost but on a daily driver of a big brand...man, it hurts.

-H

Adi-Benz 08-24-2018 01:53 PM
Yea MBUSA and out of warranty for a while = no help, even when it is their design flaws. I learned that the hard way; not as hard as your situation, however :(

It's too bad I like their cars lol. Lets hope when I plan to build an s63 coupe it wont poop haha.

sventastic82 08-24-2018 02:01 PM
I have sold my old car with a blown engine as is for $6k to a MB mechanic who can put his own time into it to fix. Maybe I could have sold for closer to 8k if I really tried.
It was a 2010 with 120k miles on it just for reference.

here is the math I to do.

It turned out the engine was blown beyond repair and it had to be replaced. As soon as the fix requires to pull the lower end apart, you are better of replacing it with a used engine. At for the car I had with that mileage at that age.

7k for an engine and about 2k to 3k in labor considering nothing else is going to get damaged during the swap.
So about 10k to put a used engine in and hoping everything is going well and hoping the used engine had nothing wrong with it.

A C63 with a replaced used engine doesn't sell that well. Maybe I could have sold it for $16k to $18k.
So I came to the conclusion selling it for 6k with a blown engine was the better option and not worrying about other issues.

BLKROKT 08-24-2018 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by Hedge-Hog (Post 7537550)
Thx but it is dead. Dealer charged to look into it. Claims TSB meant nothing and it was my responsibility to know and seek out paying them to fix the head-bolts. I've checked a lot of recommended Vancouver area "AMG service" shops and none except one was willing to do anything with [
So is this the same dealer that also told you the repair is going to be $100k and is trying to get you to buy a new AMG? Sounds trustworthy.

Did they ever tell you exactly why the car is “dead”?

Get a second opinion. Anything can be fixed unless you have a hole in your block, which is extremely unlikely.

deadlyvt 08-24-2018 07:11 PM
That is brutal.... and yes the engine should be fine depending how quickly you shut it down... just need to drop the fluid change the gaskets and head bolts and do a few engine oil flushes. However an engine rebuild should cost a heck of a lot less than the $65 grand you were quoted for a new motor and you could build it with some ugraded parts that if you were going to do some upgrades down the road would benefit from. Good luck...

BalanBro 08-24-2018 07:55 PM
Just did a search on car-part.com, which is a database of used recycled car parts for sale directly from junkyards, albeit around the US. I just did a quick search for 2012 C63's and found 2 engines with about 60k on them, one for 11k and one for 12k, USD. Not cheap, but far cheaper than a new engine, and if you get a 2012+ it will have the updated head bolts.

I've used this to find car parts and transmissions in the past. They usually include a short warranty that will more or less protect against it being DOA. I totally understand that you may not want to deal with this and could just go ahead and cut your losses, but I figured I'd show you another option.

bhamg 08-24-2018 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by BLKROKT (Post 7537622)


So is this the same dealer that also told you the repair is going to be $100k and is trying to get you to buy a new AMG? Sounds trustworthy.

Did they ever tell you exactly why the car is “dead”?

Get a second opinion. Anything can be fixed unless you have a hole in your block, which is extremely unlikely.
This. Odds are greater than 50% IMO that your motor can be fixed for less than CDN $5k. Seems like you shut it down in plenty of time.

Hedge-Hog 08-25-2018 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by sventastic82 (Post 7537598)
I have sold my old car with a blown engine as is for $6k to a MB mechanic who can put his own time into it to fix. Maybe I could have sold for closer to 8k if I really tried.
It was a 2010 with 120k miles on it just for reference.

here is the math I to do.

It turned out the engine was blown beyond repair and it had to be replaced. As soon as the fix requires to pull the lower end apart, you are better of replacing it with a used engine. At for the car I had with that mileage at that age.

7k for an engine and about 2k to 3k in labor considering nothing else is going to get damaged during the swap.
So about 10k to put a used engine in and hoping everything is going well and hoping the used engine had nothing wrong with it.

A C63 with a replaced used engine doesn't sell that well. Maybe I could have sold it for $16k to $18k.
So I came to the conclusion selling it for 6k with a blown engine was the better option and not worrying about other issues.
I cannot source anything close to that price. But, sadly, no one in Van wants to touch it...at least not anyone that sounds trustworthy. So in a similar dilemma, if I spend $10-18K on it, it will only be worthwhile if I plan to keep the car for a long time. But what's going to go next? Trade-in for a functional 2009 C63 is not that much so I cannot justify that amount on a motor repair.


Originally Posted by BLKROKT (Post 7537622)
So is this the same dealer that also told you the repair is going to be $100k and is trying to get you to buy a new AMG? Sounds trustworthy.

Did they ever tell you exactly why the car is “dead”?

Get a second opinion. Anything can be fixed unless you have a hole in your block, which is extremely unlikely.


I don't trust them but the sales people are on my side and trying to do things. It's the service manager who keeps blaming me. He's now down to CAD$65K for motor and CAD$40K+ for re+re....makes me want to go punch him. But that's juvenile....oh, the temptation. BTW, I paid them to open it up and they saw the sheared bolt heads and acknowledged the failed faulty part. He said TSB means nothing (warranty-wise). It just "helps" them find the problem quicker. I smell manure but what can I do? I'm not spending to go to court. MB Canada won't help. So it's just the sales side trying to help. Pretty sure, I just have scrap metal sitting there.

Originally Posted by deadlyvt (Post 7537851)
That is brutal.... and yes the engine should be fine depending how quickly you shut it down... just need to drop the fluid change the gaskets and head bolts and do a few engine oil flushes. However an engine rebuild should cost a heck of a lot less than the $65 grand you were quoted for a new motor and you could build it with some ugraded parts that if you were going to do some upgrades down the road would benefit from. Good luck...
As mentioned, one shop who will do this said the best thing is to find a working motor (same vintage) from a scrapyard. But replace the gasket + head bolts and pop it in. It will still be north of $20K. Just not worth it for a 10-year old car. I really don't love it that much, it just sucks I'm in this predicament.


Originally Posted by BalanBro (Post 7537884)
Just did a search on car-part.com, which is a database of used recycled car parts for sale directly from junkyards, albeit around the US. I just did a quick search for 2012 C63's and found 2 engines with about 60k on them, one for 11k and one for 12k, USD. Not cheap, but far cheaper than a new engine, and if you get a 2012+ it will have the updated head bolts.

I've used this to find car parts and transmissions in the past. They usually include a short warranty that will more or less protect against it being DOA. I totally understand that you may not want to deal with this and could just go ahead and cut your losses, but I figured I'd show you another option.
Thx...but USD$12K ...shipping up + duties + taxes + service will be the CAD$20K+ that was estimated. Guess if I can get something from scrapping per one of the post above, it will at least be some small form of down-payment for the next car.



Thanks for the discussion, guys. Here's wishing the rest of you better luck and prevention of such a crappy ordeal.

Cheerios,
-H

BLKROKT 08-25-2018 03:53 AM
Originally Posted by Hedge-Hog (Post 7538085)
I don't trust them but the sales people are on my side and trying to do things. It's the service manager who keeps blaming me. He's now down to CAD$65K for motor and CAD$40K+ for re+re....makes me want to go punch him. But that's juvenile....oh, the temptation. BTW, I paid them to open it up and they saw the sheared bolt heads and acknowledged the failed faulty part. He said TSB means nothing (warranty-wise). It just "helps" them find the problem quicker. I smell manure but what can I do? I'm not spending to go to court. MB Canada won't help. So it's just the sales side trying to help. Pretty sure, I just have scrap metal sitting there.
Yeah I want to punch that service manager for you smh...

Ok, listen. I know you’re new here, so let me break this down for you.

1. Broken head bolts in and of itself does NOT mean the engine is “dead”. Unless the bolt heads broke off and bounced around in your valvetrain, it’s likely to be ok. Head bolts themselves only hold the heads to the block. They are not mechanical per se. Losing one or three or five doesn’t make the engine scrap metal.

2. That’s not what I meant by pulling the engine apart. To identify broken headbolts, all you have to do is remove the valve covers which is a 15min job. They didn’t tear down anything. If the engine won’t turn over or the valvetrain is damaged, more things will need to be removed to get the full picture. Heads for starters.

Originally Posted by Hedge-Hog (Post 7538085)
As mentioned, one shop who will do this said the best thing is to find a working motor (same vintage) from a scrapyard. But replace the gasket + head bolts and pop it in. It will still be north of $20K. Just not worth it for a 10-year old car. I really don't love it that much, it just sucks I'm in this predicament.
Or you can just..... replace the headbolts and gaskets on the engine in your car now. Dealer only diagnosed broken headbolts. Did that hydro lock the engine, bend rods, bend valves, take out the heads..... like, what are they basing “dead engine” on, because headbolts alone does not equal that. Exactly what else is wrong, if anything? Because if the answer to that is nothing, then your engine is likely fine. You can read 20 threads just in this forum of people who had the EXACT same experience as you - coolant light, huge clouds of white smoke, broken headbolts, etc - Who got their motor fixed and went on their way. Everything can be fixed outside of something truly catastrophic like a hole in your block which I have never heard of with an M156.

Seriously, take it to someone who knows what they’re doing. Because this dealer is either not telling you the full story so you buy a new car, or they’re just completely ignorant of the situation. Give them the benefit of the doubt and say it’s the latter, still why would MB want to spend the time fixing your complicated motor when they can just tell you it’s time to buy a new car instead? They’re in the business of selling cars, not fixing them. To people like you who take what they say at face value - no offense.

Or sell it on the cheap for scrap metal to someone on this forum or bringatrailer.com who will fix the engine for probably $2k in parts and appreciate it for many more years.

Crya 08-25-2018 12:19 PM
Somebody was in a good mood at the keyboard!
:D

C3Duece 08-25-2018 06:59 PM
Sorry about your situation but you should listen to the advice politely offered in this thread. Only fools/suckers take their cars to the dealership for non warranty work.

Hedge-Hog 08-25-2018 09:10 PM
Perhaps, I didn't emphasize it or my wordy OP was skipped. Here's the TL;DR version: Car problem but no shop locally except 1 was willing to work on an AMG motor. Price for repair from that shop and MB service center is greater than the cost of the trade-in.


For further info, it was hydro-locked. Not sure as to exact extent of damage. Didn't want to pay to investigate on a 10 year old car. The economics is thus: I am willing to consider repair cost up to 90% of trade-in/resale value. Any more than that would require sentimental value towards this car (I really didn't love it that much). As someone mentioned earlier, a repair motor will net even less on trade-in/resale (I'm sure if any one of you guys were looking into a 2nd hand C63, a swapped/repaired motor would raise red flags).

So I was soliciting advise/recommendation from local people for shops the would deal with AMG. While I am appreciative of the advise provided and they all seem to be well-intention, they won't help as I cannot find a shop that will do this. I am not shipping the car/block somewhere for fixing. I really am not planning on having a shop re & re a motor acquired elsewhere.

So again, thanks for the advice but I'm limited as to what I can pursue. Seems I've found a good solution for now so I no longer have to worry about this anymore.

Cheers,
-H

BLKROKT 08-25-2018 09:42 PM
Ok. Bye.

Hedge-Hog 08-25-2018 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by BLKROKT (Post 7538501)
Ok. Bye.
Seems like you have a ****ing attitude, dip****. Love to meet you one day.

Honro 08-25-2018 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by Hedge-Hog (Post 7538515)
Seems like you have a ****ing attitude, dip****. Love to meet you one day.
I have to say sir, judging by your posts you came here to vent, not to get advice as you are very quick to dismiss all the GREAT advice you've been given. The negativity of your posts is quite astounding & im sure wont be missed around here.

Cya.

skratch77 08-26-2018 12:24 AM
I would rebuild it and supercharge it

BLKROKT 08-26-2018 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by Hedge-Hog (Post 7538515)
Seems like you have a ****ing attitude, dip****. Love to meet you one day.
See. This is what I get for trying to be nice to stupid people. Sigh.

I hope your next car is defective and is engulfed in fire with you trapped inside.

CarHopper 08-26-2018 01:05 AM
At first I was like, dang, feel bad for this guy.

Now I'm elated your car blew up.

On that note, I'll give you $1k USD for the car.

Ludedude 08-26-2018 12:28 PM
Originally Posted by BLKROKT (Post 7538579)


See. This is what I get for trying to be nice to stupid people. Sigh.

I hope your next car is defective and is engulfed in fire with you trapped inside.
:rolf:

dubgarage 08-26-2018 01:07 PM
Try amayak auto service in new west. Talk to David he did my motor in my e55 and had no issues at all


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