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Buying a PFL and doing Headbolts vs Face Lift

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Buying a PFL and doing Headbolts vs Face Lift

 
Old 01-12-2019, 02:54 PM
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Question Buying a PFL and doing Headbolts vs Face Lift

I have been looking to pick up a FL 2012 and been keeping my eye on the ones in my area, southern NJ. Recently I started looking at what was available for pre face lift models and I really like the price. I was set on the MCT trans but I have read some articles and threads on here that claim similar performance numbers as far as 0-60 and 1/4 mile times and launching. The car will be used for pleasure, not a daily, trips to the local 1/4 mile strip but no track racing. What are some of the differences in the transmissions? is the 7G much slower or harder to launch with the RS feature ? I am considering pickup up a 2009 or 2010 and doing the head gasket and bolt replacement myself. I have built 100s of engines, mostly diesel but I am comfortable in doing the head bolt repair.

What do you guys think about picking up a 2012 with about 50,000 miles for $28k or a PFL for about $20k and doing the head bolt job ?

Thanks !
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Old 01-12-2019, 03:47 PM
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The non-MCT is supposedly smoother for daily driving since it’s a traditional torque converter. I have never driven an MCT car. I can tell you that my pre-FL car was very nice as a daily. That being said, there are a lot of updates in the 2012 that I really like, especially in the interior. The bluetooth and brake hold features are definitely nice. Launching the pre-FL car on the track was super simple. Do a burnout. Stage. Brake torque to 1500 rpm, then mash and release the brake at the same time. Consistent 1.8 60’ times on street tires (25 psi). The shifts are still very quick. There is still a delay between when you pull the paddle and when the shift is executed in the MCT from what I hear. Honestly, if the MCT isn’t that jerky around town, I would get a facelift car with the lower miles. I had the headbolts and lifters done on my car for peace of mind.

Things I’d do regardless of FL/pre-FL:
-billet idler pulleys and new tensioner.
-get the injectors serviced/replaced.
-put an LSD in if it doesn’t have it.
-TUNE IT (except a 507...which wasn’t a thing in 2012).
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Old 01-12-2019, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisridebike8 View Post
The non-MCT is supposedly smoother for daily driving since itís a traditional torque converter. I have never driven an MCT car. I can tell you that my pre-FL car was very nice as a daily. That being said, there are a lot of updates in the 2012 that I really like, especially in the interior. The bluetooth and brake hold features are definitely nice. Launching the pre-FL car on the track was super simple. Do a burnout. Stage. Brake torque to 1500 rpm, then mash and release the brake at the same time. Consistent 1.8 60í times on street tires (25 psi). The shifts are still very quick. There is still a delay between when you pull the paddle and when the shift is executed in the MCT from what I hear. Honestly, if the MCT isnít that jerky around town, I would get a facelift car with the lower miles. I had the headbolts and lifters done on my car for peace of mind.

Things Iíd do regardless of FL/pre-FL:
-billet idler pulleys and new tensioner.
-get the injectors serviced/replaced.
-put an LSD in if it doesnít have it.
-TUNE IT (except a 507...which wasnít a thing in 2012).
Great feedback thanks for the response. Are there any other upgrades worth while when the heads are off ? Bolts , head gaskets and buckets seem to be the norm.
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Old 01-12-2019, 06:19 PM
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I've not done headbolts but recently got a quote for bolts and buckets. $3,200~...
Are you tracking? MCT seems to require the cooling package which is impossible to source it seems. My '09 seems to not mind running 5-20 minutes sessions. But I'm novice. Honestly I'm surprised how well my auto runs around the track. I'm sure the shifts could be more precise, but 90% of the time on the track the car shifts when it's "supposed" to. This season I'm going to try shifting it myself as a few corners it would upshift and unsettle the car.
Anyways, I've not been in/driven a FL car, but for me, after I've had 2-years on my PFL, I'm hoping to swap over to a FL and take my modz with me...
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Old 01-12-2019, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by KXC View Post


Great feedback thanks for the response. Are there any other upgrades worth while when the heads are off ? Bolts , head gaskets and buckets seem to be the norm.
when they pulled my heads off, my valve stem seals were worn. I had those replaced and also had the lifters (updated M156, not the M159 BS) done. I had already done the PCV valve, but thatís good to do while the heads are off. Timing chain tensioner was done too. Add a catch can too while you are at it and thereís room.
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Old 01-12-2019, 08:55 PM
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I haven't driven an MCT and I am curios to drive one.
But I wonder, with the MCT, how they got around to replace the torque multiplication that the torque converter provides in daily driving low to mid range.
And it's easy to feel it. Drive along with the car in C and then step on it, without flooring it, you'll feel a surge of torque, low range. Then put it in M, now the torque converter is locked. Drive at the same RPM, then accelerate or floor it, If you're not starting from 4-5000 RPM, you'll wonder what is happening to the torque.
So, the torque converter is not necessarily a bad thing.
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Old 01-12-2019, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Vladds View Post
I haven't driven an MCT and I am curios to drive one.
But I wonder, with the MCT, how they got around to replace the torque multiplication that the torque converter provides in daily driving low to mid range.
And it's easy to feel it. Drive along with the car in C and then step on it, without flooring it, you'll feel a surge of torque, low range. Then put it in M, now the torque converter is locked. Drive at the same RPM, then accelerate or floor it, If you're not starting from 4-5000 RPM, you'll wonder what is happening to the torque.
So, the torque converter is not necessarily a bad thing.
learn something new every day. I wondered why C always felt so torquey down low but M always felt a little flatter until you got higher up in the revs. Now that makes sense.
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Old 01-12-2019, 09:57 PM
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Facelift has a nicer interior and all the revised features and engine parts.

No real reason to get a PFL other than cost.
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Old 01-13-2019, 12:39 PM
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Do you guys find the VIN Decoders like DataMB.com to be accurate ? I have come across a few C63s that the dealer claims are "AMG Performance Package" and Limitted Slip but the decoder does not include those options. With the PFL cars what is a good way to confirm the P30 package is included ?
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Old 01-13-2019, 01:17 PM
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I use the VIN decoder thread on here. He responds really quickly. I trust that. Never trust the dealer. 9 times out of 10 they are clueless

https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...in-decode.html
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Old 01-14-2019, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by KXC View Post
Do you guys find the VIN Decoders like DataMB.com to be accurate ? I have come across a few C63s that the dealer claims are "AMG Performance Package" and Limitted Slip but the decoder does not include those options. With the PFL cars what is a good way to confirm the P30 package is included ?
When I was shopping around last year, I used DataMB extensively. While it doesn't seem to be that well known on these forums, I tested it on several vehicles of known configuration and found the data to be accurate. The thing to be aware of is that the package descriptions can be a bit confusing. For instance, the AMG development package referred to as the P31 on newer models, still shows up as P30 on the decoder.

You want to look for code P30 (AMG performance package), code 923 (Output Increase of Engines), and code 471 (Mechanical Locking Differential)
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Old 01-14-2019, 09:04 AM
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Oh, and regarding the trans, I would say that I find the MCT a bit clunky. It's definitely not as smooth shifting as a torque converter car. Race start is a gimmick, but I suppose it might be consistent. I never bothered trying it, and most say you can get better times with torque braking anyway.

To me, the interior on the FL is the real legitimate upgrade, and is one worth considering since that's where you will be spending the most of your time.
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by KXC View Post
I have been looking to pick up a FL 2012 and been keeping my eye on the ones in my area, southern NJ. Recently I started looking at what was available for pre face lift models and I really like the price. I was set on the MCT trans but I have read some articles and threads on here that claim similar performance numbers as far as 0-60 and 1/4 mile times and launching. The car will be used for pleasure, not a daily, trips to the local 1/4 mile strip but no track racing. What are some of the differences in the transmissions? is the 7G much slower or harder to launch with the RS feature ? I am considering pickup up a 2009 or 2010 and doing the head gasket and bolt replacement myself. I have built 100s of engines, mostly diesel but I am comfortable in doing the head bolt repair.

What do you guys think about picking up a 2012 with about 50,000 miles for $28k or a PFL for about $20k and doing the head bolt job ?

Thanks !
i live in north nj. I have a 2010 c63. I just picked up a secondary cat delete and Oe tune. I will be changing my head bolts soon as well. Might do them myself depends on time over the winter.
Pipe isnít in yet but tune is. Wow what a difference.
Your welcome to look at my car if it helps you decided.
.
Iíve thought about selling and buying something facelift or newer. But the deal I got on my car makes it worth it to save the money and do mods instead.

Messege me if you need anything
james

Last edited by bigtuna79; 01-14-2019 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by bigtuna79 View Post


i live in north nj. I have a 2010 c63. I just picked up a secondary cat delete and Oe tune. I will be changing my head bolts soon as well. Might do them myself depends on time over the winter.
Pipe isnít in yet but tune is. Wow what a difference.
Your welcome to look at my car if it helps you decided.
.
Iíve thought about selling and buying something facelift or newer. But the deal I got on my car makes it worth it to save the money and do mods instead.

Messege me if you need anything
james
thank you James I will keep that in mind. I keep going back and forth between PFL and FL I just canít decide. Hoping a good deal will make the descision easier !
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Old 01-15-2019, 10:36 PM
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Always newer and best condition. It doesnít make sense to go with the 2010 and sink money into headbolts.
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Old 01-17-2019, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by G_Money View Post
Facelift has a nicer interior and all the revised features and engine parts.

No real reason to get a PFL other than cost.
Careful G. You might get called an azzhole by pfl owners for saying the truth.
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Old 01-17-2019, 10:39 PM
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Settled on a 2012 with 39k on the clock. Canít wait to get it. Being delivered next week. Thanks everyone for the tips.
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Old 01-18-2019, 06:49 AM
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No reason to buy other than a 2015 last run 507 with less than 10,000 Miles, other than cost.
No reason to not buy a black series other than cost.
It's not rocket science, you know ?

And doing headbolts doesn't add OMG money, if done preventatively, my dealer underlined, then although the heads come off, decking is not necessary and the whole operation doesn't need to be much over $3,000.
Then, if you did your homework and have that special relationship with the shop, they may allow you to bring your own parts, only OEM genuine in box, however not purchased at the dealer counter but at your friendly online vendor prices.
This can shave another $500-1000.
So, when you do the headbolts, you avoid going nuts and only get the headbolts done. Then the parts are not expensive.
Doing headbolts AND cams or lifters and cam adjusters means that the end result is a car that is in better shape than the FL. Has new cams adjusters and so on.

While we're on the subject: the reason for which many cars develop here the noisy valve train can be because the first owner was a lease. ESPECIALLY a company lease.
Those people NEVER change the oil. I have seen it where I work too. The company leases the CFO a BMW 335. All he had to pay out of his pocket for was ONE oil change. The company even paid for his gas. You guessed it, he never did the oil change "what do I care ?".
What I'm saying is that the same problem affects used FL as well. Previous ownership ......
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