CLA 45 AMG New Borg Warner Turbo with ECU problems, help!
#26
Weistec,
This argument has been had for years, for and against. Yet no concrete and real world evidence suggests this form of compressor surge fatigues the core or bearings by any measurable amount in general.
Also using a vent to atmosphere DV is not specifically great on a MAF based airflow measure, as the car will effectively run rich/over fuel. Recirc DV's are your friend for MAF metered cars imo, should you want to run a DV.
This argument has been had for years, for and against. Yet no concrete and real world evidence suggests this form of compressor surge fatigues the core or bearings by any measurable amount in general.
Also using a vent to atmosphere DV is not specifically great on a MAF based airflow measure, as the car will effectively run rich/over fuel. Recirc DV's are your friend for MAF metered cars imo, should you want to run a DV.
#27
Your Anti-Surge Valve actually opens and releases needed boost pressure prior to peak turbo operation so, it hinders maximum performance and efficiency. [/B]Additionally you provide for no static adjustment to change it's pressure operation as on Turbosmart Valves. I bought one of your anti-surge valves and we dyno tested it; anti surge valve vs no anti-surge valve. In conclusion; we made less peak horsepower and boos, with it installed, then without on the dyno. This was confirmed with better than 2 weeks on road data-logging. The only thing it managed to do was; make excessive noise. Intake temps rose by 5 degrees due to the pressure venting directly into the engine compartment. This was taken by laser temp probe. Frankly, there were no apparent performance advantages but proven disadvantages. To be even more frank, it's more of a $550.00 noise maker than a performance adder. Sorry but that's my honest technical assessment. You might get some benefit from a larger turbo installation but that's speculative at best.
I can definitely tell you, it's not needed with the OEM turbo, which peaks at an ECU controlled 1.8 bar or 26.11 psi of boost. Anything more than this with the M133 is not efficient for long term operation, without internal engine modifications. This is also confirmed by AMG. It's completely unrealistic to operate the M133 at or over 30 psi or 2.1 bar and expect the engine to have any long term reliability, not to mention an immediate cancellation of your factory warranty. Installing a larger turbo and allowing higher boost applications, is out of the scope of operation for the M133 according to AMG. Otherwise, AMG states the engine internals are not stressed for long term operation greater than 1.93 bar or 28 psi operation. This is been proven and made very apparent.
There's just not enough data available for larger turbo applications on the M13, they're untested and unproven. In reality, unless the cylinders have been pressure ringed, crankshaft pins welded, connecting rods strengthened and upgrades in both fuel/oil pressure systems, I wouldn't be messing around with a larger turbo application and more boost.
You risk head warpage or blowing a head gasket as a minimum. Spinning a crank, shortening engine & turbo bearing life, fracturing piston rods and premature turbo destruction due to inefficient oiling, are far more likely. We've been there and done that by example with other high boost applications and unless you've capped a few engines, you really don't know. There aren't many M133 engines available in the salvage and breaker yards or from AMG direct, if at all. All current M133 engines are slated for production vehicles, not outright sale.
You claim it increases turbo lifespan, however turbo wear is more directly related to oil viscosity breakdown and poor lubrication, not overboost. Overboost as you state is non-existent with the M133 and is electronically controlled by the ECU. So since their is never an overboost condition, how do you know your anti-surge valve will extend turbo life? AMG doesn't use one or believes it's needed at all. The production engine was released just last year and there is next to no data available on longevity, except that from the factory. Mercedes doesn't supply aftermarket performance manufacturers with test vehicles (with exception to AMG) to develop performance parts, so unless you're testing a privately owned unit with at least 100,000 miles, your personal data can't be very accurate. This is just common sense.
So how did you come up with your data? I'm positive there are others on the forum interested in the test data that helped you to come to this conclusion, I know I am for sure. I'm always open to new technology and processes but what you're claiming is, a bit hard to swallow without some hard data to study and digest.
You've got some outstanding performance parts but I don't believe you have the anti-surge valve market cornered for good reason with the M133.
I can definitely tell you, it's not needed with the OEM turbo, which peaks at an ECU controlled 1.8 bar or 26.11 psi of boost. Anything more than this with the M133 is not efficient for long term operation, without internal engine modifications. This is also confirmed by AMG. It's completely unrealistic to operate the M133 at or over 30 psi or 2.1 bar and expect the engine to have any long term reliability, not to mention an immediate cancellation of your factory warranty. Installing a larger turbo and allowing higher boost applications, is out of the scope of operation for the M133 according to AMG. Otherwise, AMG states the engine internals are not stressed for long term operation greater than 1.93 bar or 28 psi operation. This is been proven and made very apparent.
There's just not enough data available for larger turbo applications on the M13, they're untested and unproven. In reality, unless the cylinders have been pressure ringed, crankshaft pins welded, connecting rods strengthened and upgrades in both fuel/oil pressure systems, I wouldn't be messing around with a larger turbo application and more boost.
You risk head warpage or blowing a head gasket as a minimum. Spinning a crank, shortening engine & turbo bearing life, fracturing piston rods and premature turbo destruction due to inefficient oiling, are far more likely. We've been there and done that by example with other high boost applications and unless you've capped a few engines, you really don't know. There aren't many M133 engines available in the salvage and breaker yards or from AMG direct, if at all. All current M133 engines are slated for production vehicles, not outright sale.
You claim it increases turbo lifespan, however turbo wear is more directly related to oil viscosity breakdown and poor lubrication, not overboost. Overboost as you state is non-existent with the M133 and is electronically controlled by the ECU. So since their is never an overboost condition, how do you know your anti-surge valve will extend turbo life? AMG doesn't use one or believes it's needed at all. The production engine was released just last year and there is next to no data available on longevity, except that from the factory. Mercedes doesn't supply aftermarket performance manufacturers with test vehicles (with exception to AMG) to develop performance parts, so unless you're testing a privately owned unit with at least 100,000 miles, your personal data can't be very accurate. This is just common sense.
So how did you come up with your data? I'm positive there are others on the forum interested in the test data that helped you to come to this conclusion, I know I am for sure. I'm always open to new technology and processes but what you're claiming is, a bit hard to swallow without some hard data to study and digest.
You've got some outstanding performance parts but I don't believe you have the anti-surge valve market cornered for good reason with the M133.
Also I wouldn't be surprised if this surge didn't help the stock turbo with the recalls/failures besides the oil contamination. Why did AMG now decided to include a diverter valve in the face lifted a45 if it was not needed and not affecting the turbo? They also have including diverter valves in the AMG GT-S/C63 with 4.0L V8 biturbo motors M177/M178?
#30
The sensor you are looking at in the inlet tube is a barometric pressure which is there to detect any restriction in the filter (dirty or collapsed, etc.).
Furthermore, (and I don't think a generic scan tool can log this on these newer cars) you can try to log manifold absolute pressure (MAP) and this what you want to look at to understand pretty much the essence of what is happening with this car.
Hope this helps and happy logging!
#31
Junior Member
Thread Starter
deleted by moderator
Be my guest to say I told you so. But please don't flame this thread with a v8 car comment.
Last edited by amdeutsch; 07-27-2015 at 07:35 PM.
#32
Junior Member
Thread Starter
#33
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Yea ok, that's why you're having trouble getting it above 4000 rpm without it tanking. The CLS63 AMG is just a far better car all the way around then the CLA hands down.
No fueling upgrades, trans tuning or intake upgrade, you'll never get it to run right, we've already been there and back. You're not the only duck in the pond.
Good luck on and everyday driver. You'll be into another engine before you know it. That's $16K+ US if you can find one. If you ever get it to pull over 4K rpms, it'll detonate without the ringing the cylinders, not to mention spinning bearings or a crank.
Don't say I didn't tell you so! Good Luck you're going to need it. In the mean time, that CLS will still run around you with that big ole heavy ***, no matter what you do.
Hell since your into throwing good money after bad, come on over and I'll be happy to prove it first hand. Now that will be FUN!
No fueling upgrades, trans tuning or intake upgrade, you'll never get it to run right, we've already been there and back. You're not the only duck in the pond.
Good luck on and everyday driver. You'll be into another engine before you know it. That's $16K+ US if you can find one. If you ever get it to pull over 4K rpms, it'll detonate without the ringing the cylinders, not to mention spinning bearings or a crank.
Don't say I didn't tell you so! Good Luck you're going to need it. In the mean time, that CLS will still run around you with that big ole heavy ***, no matter what you do.
Hell since your into throwing good money after bad, come on over and I'll be happy to prove it first hand. Now that will be FUN!
I'm doing this for fun and I like the chassi of the car so be my guest to say I told you so if I blow my engine with my new custom dyno map.
I couldn't care less..
#34
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A45 AMG
Thanks for your info.
I do find your power figures, based upon what you have said you've done, highly optimistic.
Even if we were optimistic and allowed for a 10% increase using E85, over and above 93, that would make your 93 results at around 422 ATW.
If we then start to throw in some transmission loses, let's say 12% for arguments sake, that then relates to crank figures of 480bhp on 93 and 528bhp on E85.
I'm making some educated assumptions here, but you can perhaps see where I'm coming from.
I would also suggest the compressor map on the OEM turbo, would show that 480bhp would not be possible imo. I'm thinking the OEM turbo has a flowrate of around 44lb/min.
Any dyno results you could post up?
Last edited by shaunee; 07-27-2015 at 02:42 AM. Reason: Used the wrong word.
#35
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A45 AMG
Your generic OBD logger is picking up the calculated air flow signal which is something SAE requires. There is no MAF on pretty much any new AMG.
The sensor you are looking at in the inlet tube is a barometric pressure which is there to detect any restriction in the filter (dirty or collapsed, etc.).
Furthermore, (and I don't think a generic scan tool can log this on these newer cars) you can try to log manifold absolute pressure (MAP) and this what you want to look at to understand pretty much the essence of what is happening with this car.
Hope this helps and happy logging!
The sensor you are looking at in the inlet tube is a barometric pressure which is there to detect any restriction in the filter (dirty or collapsed, etc.).
Furthermore, (and I don't think a generic scan tool can log this on these newer cars) you can try to log manifold absolute pressure (MAP) and this what you want to look at to understand pretty much the essence of what is happening with this car.
Hope this helps and happy logging!
I'm trying to locate the PID for MAFv, so I can also calculate the proper boost reading over the 1.55bar ODB clip. If I get that sorted it will enhance my logging facilities greatly.
#36
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2014 CLS 63 S AMG / 2004 E55 AMG
While this thread is all over the place, it's good to see someone trying a turbo upgrade.
I ran a few 500+ hp rx7's with 20+ psi and no BOV, and while I'm not expert, i don't believe they are necessary for modern turbos. Also, if you are pushing the efficiency range of the turbo at 2.1 bars, you may want to consider pre-turbo water injection (mechanical or electric). It shifts the efficiency range of the turbo into higher boost regions and keeps the charge temps remarkably low.
If you removed the stock turbo, can you post the inducer / exducer measurements and (ideally) pictures of the compressor and turbine wheels?
I ran a few 500+ hp rx7's with 20+ psi and no BOV, and while I'm not expert, i don't believe they are necessary for modern turbos. Also, if you are pushing the efficiency range of the turbo at 2.1 bars, you may want to consider pre-turbo water injection (mechanical or electric). It shifts the efficiency range of the turbo into higher boost regions and keeps the charge temps remarkably low.
If you removed the stock turbo, can you post the inducer / exducer measurements and (ideally) pictures of the compressor and turbine wheels?
#37
Junior Member
Thread Starter
deleted by moderator
I do take the advices and I am upgrading the car more and more every week to make it stronger. I thank you for the advice but what I do not care about is what to buy instead of this car and what kind of car you have and not or what car is faster. I am not out for a drag race, Id buy one if I were. I really hope you get the picture now. Its a thread I started about my CLA 45 AMG and nothing else.
All advices on this car and tunings is very welcome and Im very happy about it. I am saying that Im no expert so I rely on my technical support, yes. Also from Weistec, Rebellion and Renntech that has been and are helping me.
No more flaming please
Last edited by amdeutsch; 07-27-2015 at 07:34 PM.
#38
^^X2. And if you're going to insult others' intelligence via keyboard do yourself a favor, use the spell check function and proofread for grammar so as not to insult your own in the process.
#39
Junior Member
Thread Starter
If its me you're referring to please start to answer me grammatically in Swedish since English is my second language.
#40
Not at all! You've been nothing but respectful throughout. X2 was in full agreement as to what you stated to A45. I just wanted to add a little on to it as his ranting and bashing everyone and everything on this sub-forum is just getting ridiculous. I can see your confusion though with English being your second language. Very impressed. Sad thing is there's a guy on here with over 60 years of "experience" and has yet to master his native language.
Apologies if I offended you, it was not my intent.
#41
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Not at all! You've been nothing but respectful throughout. X2 was in full agreement as to what you stated to A45. I just wanted to add a little on to it as his ranting and bashing everyone and everything on this sub-forum is just getting ridiculous. I can see your confusion though with English being your second language. Very impressed. Sad thing is there's a guy on here with over 60 years of "experience" and has yet to master his native language.
Apologies if I offended you, it was not my intent.
Apologies if I offended you, it was not my intent.
No apologies needed and thank you
I will upload my dyno run after the ECU and a custom map has been done!
#43
Super Member
of course we all know from experience from other high performance turbo cars that whenever you go big on aftermarket turbo you most likely have to go with a bigger intake , bigger reading map sensor, bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, better intercooler.and so on.
the most important thing of all a real tuner that knows what he is doing.
I still say this motor can easily run 500 to wheels with the proper mods of course.
the gearbox might need a heavier duty duel clutch system.
the most important thing of all a real tuner that knows what he is doing.
I still say this motor can easily run 500 to wheels with the proper mods of course.
the gearbox might need a heavier duty duel clutch system.
Last edited by tekfoc; 07-28-2015 at 09:41 AM.
#44
Junior Member
Thread Starter
of course we all know from experience from other high performance turbo cars that whenever you go big on aftermarket turbo you most likely have to go with a bigger intake , bigger reading map sensor, bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, better intercooler.and so on.
the most important thing of all a real tuner that knows what he is doing.
I still say this motor can easily run 500 to wheels with the proper mods of course.
the gearbox might need a heavier duty duel clutch system.
the most important thing of all a real tuner that knows what he is doing.
I still say this motor can easily run 500 to wheels with the proper mods of course.
the gearbox might need a heavier duty duel clutch system.
We have taken this in mind, the engine and a lot of other stuff has already been upgraded for this turbo to fit and run properly with my enginge. We had to change all the oil, water, air cabling etc. We will test it with care to see how the car is taking all of the torque that will occur from this new strong turbo.
It is not like we just mounted a turbo and say Hey lets go
My new exhaust and the intake cooling kit will be mounted later this week. After this its dyno time, I will post the results.
Thanks for your advices anyway!
#45
Super Member
We have taken this in mind, the engine and a lot of other stuff has already been upgraded for this turbo to fit and run properly with my enginge. We had to change all the oil, water, air cabling etc. We will test it with care to see how the car is taking all of the torque that will occur from this new strong turbo.
It is not like we just mounted a turbo and say Hey lets go
My new exhaust and the intake cooling kit will be mounted later this week. After this its dyno time, I will post the results.
Thanks for your advices anyway!
It is not like we just mounted a turbo and say Hey lets go
My new exhaust and the intake cooling kit will be mounted later this week. After this its dyno time, I will post the results.
Thanks for your advices anyway!
cant wait to see the result's good luck
#46
Super Member
Hello Guys,
Just to give you a true picture I will start with my tunes as a list.
- Weistec Downpipe + Midpipe
- Weistec ECU calibration
- Weistec Anti Surge Valve
- K&N intake filter
- Borg Warner EFR6758 Turbo (very powerful)
- Renntech piggyback stage 6 (running on octane 98) - not connected atm.
My Problem is that my car in is running up to 2.1 bar in turbo boost at 4000 rpm and then the car goes into a failure mode so the boost drops immediately.
I need to get these failure codes to disappear, would it be an option to also connect the piggyback to get an increased limit maybe?
I will try tomorrow but if anyone knows how to solve the failure codes that makes my boost drop at 4000 rpm please help me.
All help is appreciated.
Just to give you a true picture I will start with my tunes as a list.
- Weistec Downpipe + Midpipe
- Weistec ECU calibration
- Weistec Anti Surge Valve
- K&N intake filter
- Borg Warner EFR6758 Turbo (very powerful)
- Renntech piggyback stage 6 (running on octane 98) - not connected atm.
My Problem is that my car in is running up to 2.1 bar in turbo boost at 4000 rpm and then the car goes into a failure mode so the boost drops immediately.
I need to get these failure codes to disappear, would it be an option to also connect the piggyback to get an increased limit maybe?
I will try tomorrow but if anyone knows how to solve the failure codes that makes my boost drop at 4000 rpm please help me.
All help is appreciated.
I'm curious which component is the restriction
#48
Junior Member
Thread Starter
I am getting closer with my car. I've got my help from Lukas at Renntech. I sent my ECU to him and he told me to upgrade my ECU at my Mercedes dealer since he could see instantly that my software was way too old. My ECU is now in stock mode with their new updates with 380hp.
All my tunes are still on and the car is running pretty good for a stock ECU I must say!!
I am now sending my ECU back to Renntech and they will be doing their stage 2 ECU tune to see how much it will help. I will try it on a dyno run as well. After this I will come down to them and make my ECU custom dyno map and also take a few laps on the Nürnburg Ring
Thanks for all the help on this thread everyone and a special thanks to Lukas on Renntech for finding my problem on a express notice!
Also a big thank you to Matt at Rebellion for helping me and providing me with their tunes: Air Intake, Air Intake Cooler and their Catback Exhaust system that I am awaiting to mount on my car!
Thank you Rod and Zach at Weistec as well. Your tunes is running very good with my car But the ECU calibration was unfortunately not a success and we couldn't find a proper way of solving it together.
I will still post Dyno results when done!
All my tunes are still on and the car is running pretty good for a stock ECU I must say!!
I am now sending my ECU back to Renntech and they will be doing their stage 2 ECU tune to see how much it will help. I will try it on a dyno run as well. After this I will come down to them and make my ECU custom dyno map and also take a few laps on the Nürnburg Ring
Thanks for all the help on this thread everyone and a special thanks to Lukas on Renntech for finding my problem on a express notice!
Also a big thank you to Matt at Rebellion for helping me and providing me with their tunes: Air Intake, Air Intake Cooler and their Catback Exhaust system that I am awaiting to mount on my car!
Thank you Rod and Zach at Weistec as well. Your tunes is running very good with my car But the ECU calibration was unfortunately not a success and we couldn't find a proper way of solving it together.
I will still post Dyno results when done!
Last edited by Rannestig; 07-31-2015 at 05:34 AM.
#49
MBWorld Fanatic!
I am reading all this for the first time being a new owner and find myself asking 'Why"?
I have had the opportunity to run this car on the track - that is why I bought it - and it has so much potential in stock form I will never get to use it legally.
At at under 10 lb/hp why do you need to do this?
I have had the opportunity to run this car on the track - that is why I bought it - and it has so much potential in stock form I will never get to use it legally.
At at under 10 lb/hp why do you need to do this?
#50
Junior Member
Thread Starter
I am reading all this for the first time being a new owner and find myself asking 'Why"?
I have had the opportunity to run this car on the track - that is why I bought it - and it has so much potential in stock form I will never get to use it legally.
At at under 10 lb/hp why do you need to do this?
I have had the opportunity to run this car on the track - that is why I bought it - and it has so much potential in stock form I will never get to use it legally.
At at under 10 lb/hp why do you need to do this?
You would understand why if you would be comparing our cars, trust me after driving it with so much more power you would feel like getting back into a Nissan Micra.