Will wrong convertible top fluid damage the system?
02-08-2013, 05:06 PM
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Will wrong convertible top fluid damage the system?
Can the wrong viscosity hydraulic fluid, or an altogether wrong type of fluid, destroy the soft-top pump and other components of that system? Is a dark-colored fluid in the system definitely a wrong type? How long would it take for the correct fluid to turn dark? How would you flush out old or bad fluid from the soft-top system? Thanks for any help that any of you knowledgeable guys can offer.
02-09-2013, 12:00 AM
#2
MBworld Guru
The correct fluid is part number A0009899103. It's Aral Vitamol ZH-M. Anything else may be the wrong viscosity which will cause problems. I'd drain the pump and refill with the proper fluid, run the system a dozen times, then drain and refill again.
02-09-2013, 06:59 AM
#3
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Please use the correct fluid. Viscosity & seal swell characteristics have to be correct.
02-10-2013, 02:23 PM
#4
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Correct hydraulic fluid, flushing, and what the wrong fluid will do
ReluctantMBer,
welcome to the forum, and thanks for asking this loaded question. Please allow me to elaborate, after giving a brief answer first.
By the way, the other fluid approved by Mercedes for the US market is FeBi 02615. Here is a link to an online supplier: http://www.rmeuropean.com/Part-Numbe..._D18BD03A.aspx (Top Hydraulics has no relation to this vendor).
The wrong fluid can indeed seriously damage or destroy the the hydraulic pump and other components in the hydraulic convertible top system. Normally, it should take well over 10 years for the fluid in the system to turn dark, comparable to a much diluted coffee color. We rebuild many W209 hydraulic pumps, and it is rare that we see dark colored fluid in the pumps.
For preventative maintenance, you do not have to evacuate all old fluid for a reasonable flush. However, if you have a harmful fluid in the system, then it will be best to first get all fluid out of the system before refilling it, then flushing it again.
Can the wrong viscosity hydraulic fluid destroy the soft-top [hydraulic] pump? Yes, it can. High viscosity means a thick fluid, and thick fluid is much harder to pump through the tiny hoses. The ID of the hydraulic hoses is 1.8mm (just over 1/16 inch), and some fittings and flow restrictors in the system have holes smaller than 1 mm. Your soft top needs a low-viscosity fluid. The system is designed to shut off the pump when it gets too hot (mostly from working too hard). I personally find the OEM shut off temperature too high. We get a lot of pumps in with burnt out motors, where obviously the high temp shut off did not happen. All we can do at that point, is replace the electric motor.
Can an altogether wrong type of fluid destroy components of that system? The wrong type of fluid will definitely shorten the service life of many components in your system drastically. I am stopping short of claiming these fluid will destroy the parts, because Top Hydraulics can still make them better than new even at that point. While high viscosity and dirt are the biggest enemies of your pump, additives and altogether wrong types of fluids can ruin the original seals in your seven hydraulic cylinders very quickly. Here are examples of chemicals that are particularly bad for the seals:
- "Stop-Leak" additives. They make the seals swell up first, but the seals in all cylinders will subsequently decay much faster than they normally would. They will turn into jelly.
- Water or fluids that immerse water. That includes brake fluid and other alcohol based fluids. Once the original seals in your cylinders get in contact with water, they will disintegrate quickly.
Is a dark-colored fluid in the system definitely a wrong type? Not definitely, but you need to get it out of the system. All Mercedes-approved fluids for your convertible top system are either clear or very light in color. What makes the fluid in the pump dark, are results of chemical reactions (oxidation) and suspended micro-particles. If your hydraulic fluid is prematurely dark, then I wouldn't be surprised if someone added "bottle jack oil", as is easily found in chain stores. It is highly likely that whatever fluid has been added, has unwanted additives in it.
How would you flush out old or bad fluid from the soft-top system? Roughly half of the hydraulic fluid is stored in the reservoir; the rest is in the pump, the lines, and the hydraulic cylinders. There are two levels of flushing:
1) Preventative maintenance. In this case, it is not necessary to get all of the old fluid evacuated. I would suggest siphoning all fluid out of the reservoir, re-filling the reservoir, moving the top one half cycle (all the way up or all the way down), emptying the reservoir again, and refilling it again.
2) Removing the wrong fluid. You need to get all old fluid out of the system first. Small amounts of the wrong chemical will still almost do as much harm as large amounts. In extreme cases such as water in the fluid, it must be blown out of the hydraulic lines with compressed air. Frankly, if you know that you have the wrong fluid in your system, then you should have Top Hydraulics upgrade all seven cylinders at once. Top Hydraulics' seals are almost insensitive to most fluids, and they can deal well with water.
The hydraulic lines are attached to the pump by a retainer plate. Once you unfasten that plate, all lines can be pulled out of the pump and they will still be in the correct order because they will still be attached to the retainer plate. (You will find it easiest to pull the lines out of the pump one by one, while they are still attached to the retainer plate.) With the lines removed from the pump, you can now cycle most fluid out of the cylinders and the lines by cycling the top manually. The pump still needs to be removed and fully drained. You can get the fluid out of the pump portion by pulling off the electric motor.
Even with the correct fluid in the system, the seals in all seven cylinders will eventually fail in all W209s, as long as the cars don't get wrecked prematurely. The seal decay is a chemical reaction which is accelerated by high temperature. You can extend the life of your cylinders by flushing the system every few years, but you cannot avoid the cylinders failing eventually. For example, we are now upgrading full sets of cylinders for many '08 model years from hot climates. Below is a diagram with the location of the hydraulic cylinders and the pump in your CLK.
-Klaus
www.tophydraulicsinc.com
welcome to the forum, and thanks for asking this loaded question. Please allow me to elaborate, after giving a brief answer first.
By the way, the other fluid approved by Mercedes for the US market is FeBi 02615. Here is a link to an online supplier: http://www.rmeuropean.com/Part-Numbe..._D18BD03A.aspx (Top Hydraulics has no relation to this vendor).
The wrong fluid can indeed seriously damage or destroy the the hydraulic pump and other components in the hydraulic convertible top system. Normally, it should take well over 10 years for the fluid in the system to turn dark, comparable to a much diluted coffee color. We rebuild many W209 hydraulic pumps, and it is rare that we see dark colored fluid in the pumps.
For preventative maintenance, you do not have to evacuate all old fluid for a reasonable flush. However, if you have a harmful fluid in the system, then it will be best to first get all fluid out of the system before refilling it, then flushing it again.
Can the wrong viscosity hydraulic fluid destroy the soft-top [hydraulic] pump? Yes, it can. High viscosity means a thick fluid, and thick fluid is much harder to pump through the tiny hoses. The ID of the hydraulic hoses is 1.8mm (just over 1/16 inch), and some fittings and flow restrictors in the system have holes smaller than 1 mm. Your soft top needs a low-viscosity fluid. The system is designed to shut off the pump when it gets too hot (mostly from working too hard). I personally find the OEM shut off temperature too high. We get a lot of pumps in with burnt out motors, where obviously the high temp shut off did not happen. All we can do at that point, is replace the electric motor.
Can an altogether wrong type of fluid destroy components of that system? The wrong type of fluid will definitely shorten the service life of many components in your system drastically. I am stopping short of claiming these fluid will destroy the parts, because Top Hydraulics can still make them better than new even at that point. While high viscosity and dirt are the biggest enemies of your pump, additives and altogether wrong types of fluids can ruin the original seals in your seven hydraulic cylinders very quickly. Here are examples of chemicals that are particularly bad for the seals:
- "Stop-Leak" additives. They make the seals swell up first, but the seals in all cylinders will subsequently decay much faster than they normally would. They will turn into jelly.
- Water or fluids that immerse water. That includes brake fluid and other alcohol based fluids. Once the original seals in your cylinders get in contact with water, they will disintegrate quickly.
Is a dark-colored fluid in the system definitely a wrong type? Not definitely, but you need to get it out of the system. All Mercedes-approved fluids for your convertible top system are either clear or very light in color. What makes the fluid in the pump dark, are results of chemical reactions (oxidation) and suspended micro-particles. If your hydraulic fluid is prematurely dark, then I wouldn't be surprised if someone added "bottle jack oil", as is easily found in chain stores. It is highly likely that whatever fluid has been added, has unwanted additives in it.
How would you flush out old or bad fluid from the soft-top system? Roughly half of the hydraulic fluid is stored in the reservoir; the rest is in the pump, the lines, and the hydraulic cylinders. There are two levels of flushing:
1) Preventative maintenance. In this case, it is not necessary to get all of the old fluid evacuated. I would suggest siphoning all fluid out of the reservoir, re-filling the reservoir, moving the top one half cycle (all the way up or all the way down), emptying the reservoir again, and refilling it again.
2) Removing the wrong fluid. You need to get all old fluid out of the system first. Small amounts of the wrong chemical will still almost do as much harm as large amounts. In extreme cases such as water in the fluid, it must be blown out of the hydraulic lines with compressed air. Frankly, if you know that you have the wrong fluid in your system, then you should have Top Hydraulics upgrade all seven cylinders at once. Top Hydraulics' seals are almost insensitive to most fluids, and they can deal well with water.
The hydraulic lines are attached to the pump by a retainer plate. Once you unfasten that plate, all lines can be pulled out of the pump and they will still be in the correct order because they will still be attached to the retainer plate. (You will find it easiest to pull the lines out of the pump one by one, while they are still attached to the retainer plate.) With the lines removed from the pump, you can now cycle most fluid out of the cylinders and the lines by cycling the top manually. The pump still needs to be removed and fully drained. You can get the fluid out of the pump portion by pulling off the electric motor.
Even with the correct fluid in the system, the seals in all seven cylinders will eventually fail in all W209s, as long as the cars don't get wrecked prematurely. The seal decay is a chemical reaction which is accelerated by high temperature. You can extend the life of your cylinders by flushing the system every few years, but you cannot avoid the cylinders failing eventually. For example, we are now upgrading full sets of cylinders for many '08 model years from hot climates. Below is a diagram with the location of the hydraulic cylinders and the pump in your CLK.
-Klaus
www.tophydraulicsinc.com
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terryr45 (03-06-2021)
02-11-2013, 10:44 AM
#5
Super Moderator
Good commentary.
If the fluid is oxidised ~ i.e. black you need to achieve a complete change. Mixing oxidised fluid with new fluid is like putting crap in ice cream. The oxidised fluid catalyses oxidation in the new fluid & reduces it's service life substantially.
If the fluid is oxidised ~ i.e. black you need to achieve a complete change. Mixing oxidised fluid with new fluid is like putting crap in ice cream. The oxidised fluid catalyses oxidation in the new fluid & reduces it's service life substantially.
02-12-2013, 11:30 AM
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Cycling the top manually
With the lines removed from the pump, you can now cycle most fluid out of the cylinders and the lines by cycling the top manually. The pump still needs to be removed and fully drained. You can get the fluid out of the pump portion by pulling off the electric motor.
-Klaus
www.tophydraulicsinc.com
-Klaus
www.tophydraulicsinc.com
Klaus, I've seen references on MBWorld to changing a setting on the pump from auto to manual and other references to manually opening and closing the top, but either they weren't detailed or they were for different models. Can you guide me through that process or point me to the place where it's already been described for an '04 W209? I should add that my pump is not working and the top is up/closed. Thanks.
Last edited by ReluctantMBer; 02-12-2013 at 11:32 AM. Reason: Unnecessary words
02-12-2013, 06:13 PM
#7
MBworld Guru
Look in your owner's manual - there are instructions for manually closing the top. Manual opening is the same process, except you push the top into the trunk instead of pull it out. There are release valves (one on each side of the trunk) that you need to open for this. Also, the struts on the soft top trunk cover can be very difficult to move, so you may be better off detaching them from the bottom of the cover.
if you don't have the owner's manual, you can get the PDF here:
http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/servic...owners_manuals
Also, here is a video showing the manual close process (it's an A207, but otherwise identical to the W209):
http://benzbits.com/W209/soft_top/ManualClose.wmv
if you don't have the owner's manual, you can get the PDF here:
http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/servic...owners_manuals
Also, here is a video showing the manual close process (it's an A207, but otherwise identical to the W209):
http://benzbits.com/W209/soft_top/ManualClose.wmv
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02-13-2013, 10:59 AM
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Closing/opening the top manually
[QUOTE=Rudeney;5542807]Look in your owner's manual - there are instructions for manually closing the top.
Thanks Rodney! I do have the manual and have seen those instructions. The process seemed incredibly complex when reading it, but the video was worth more than a "thousand words." Not so complicated after all.
Thanks Rodney! I do have the manual and have seen those instructions. The process seemed incredibly complex when reading it, but the video was worth more than a "thousand words." Not so complicated after all.
02-13-2013, 10:34 PM
#9
MBworld Guru
It really isn't that hard. I would recommend all cabriolet owners give this a try on a nice clear day for a "dry run" so you know what to do in case you are caught in an emergency.
