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late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by dave2001auto
Glyn,
That's nasty. Regular oil drain plug oil changes look warranted than sucking up through the dipstick. It looks as if the oil pan should be removed and inners inspected every 2 to 3 oil changes. Could the ERG be stuck? Soot progressively clogging the filter and lines, low oil flow, then overheating of the oil and gelling?
Is engine seizing problem only when group III oils are used or also with group IV oils? The
Originally Posted by dave2001auto
"There is definitely a high temperature element to these failures or we would not see oxidation where it is but this might only occur in the terminal stages." Even if the engine didn't seize, that much sludge is part of the walking dead. Glyn, in line with the engine being at the terminal state, polymerization rates increase exponentially.
ESP 229.51 oil in the USA sells for much more than 229.5 oils.
Yes I know that. Regarding pricing that is the way of marketing. 229.5 uses superior base oil, has twice the additive treat rate & in 0W-40 configuration is more expensive to formulate than a 5W-30 or 5W-40 from a viscometrics perspective. Removing the sump is not practical in situ on these units. Have not experienced a unit with the EGR valve stuck. The sample size is too small to see any pattern that would suggest a base oil commonality. What I have not seen yet is a failure using Euro 6 diesel. If anyone knows of one I'm interested. As I commented earlier in the thread I'm watching an oil industry friend's ML in Rockwall, Dallas TX that is at present being serviced annually due to approx 6000 miles/year & it shows zero sludging. He has a decent Olympus borescope. I recommend halving the oil drain interval until Benz resolves the issue. Oxidation catalises further oxidation.
Once heat induced polymerization occurs less oil, less cooling and high temperatures and then more polymerization in that area and then other areas. A vicious cycle.
Toyota V6 Sienna had some sludge problems that we solved by increasing water cooling (larger radiator, increase fan cycles and lower engine temp). Then enlarging the engine's oil return ducts to increase oil flow and to prevent sludge from clogging those ducts.
Glyn, BTW does the 7G transmission have an ATF level sensor? It think the last ATF change level (20000 miles ago) was too low for my new cold winter
Last edited by dave2001auto; 02-23-2016 at 08:27 PM.
Glyn- Can you expand on the HTHS comment? I use Motul oilsin one of my Porsches and my MB. For my late model Porsche (gas) I use Motul5w40 X-cess. It has an HTHS of 3.7, ash of 1.1, and TBN of 10.1. It also meets229.5 spec and Porsche A40.
For my '12 MB Bluetec I use Motul X-clean. It has an HTHS of 3.64, ash of.8, and TBN of 7.5. It meets MB spec 229.51.
I have read that Motul is a Grp 4 base. I assume for both oils. Since thedifference in HTHS between the two oils is just a rounding error away from eachother, should I be concerned about both being too low per your HTHS comment ordid I get lucky and find a good oil for each.
The significant difference between the oils seems to be in TBN. Could it bethat the skimpy additive pack, reflected in the TBN of the 229.51 oils iscausing the problems?
had the leaky seals issue fixed. had the intake and egr cleaned.
the mobil1 esp 5w30 was causing sludge. ran a liqui moly engine flush before the last oil change and switched to Top Tec 4605 5W-30 @ mb 229.52. no sludge issues. using the stock mann filter from benz.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by dave2001auto
Once heat induced polymerization occurs less oil, less cooling and high temperatures and then more polymerization in that area and then other areas. A vicious cycle.
Toyota V6 Sienna had some sludge problems that we solved by increasing water cooling (larger radiator, increase fan cycles and lower engine temp). Then enlarging the engine's oil return ducts to increase oil flow and to prevent sludge from clogging those ducts.
Glyn, BTW does the 7G transmission have an ATF level sensor? It think the last ATF change level (20000 miles ago) was too low for my new cold winter
Indeed ~ That is Polymerisation/Oxidation 101. The real question is why are so many of these engines trouble free at huge mileage with no apparent connection to more failures in what Benz calls torrid zones of the world e.g Dubai, Saudi, Africa? I more & more think the issue is fuel or fueling related possibly linked to certain lubricants where formulators have gone cheap to just meet specs & no more.
The 722.9 has 2 level sensors for fluid control. Fluid level going too low will ultimately induce limp mode. These have nothing to do with setting correct fluid level which is temperature critical & height of spill tube dependent. See diagrams. Signs of a slightly low level can usually be induced by reversing up a steep hill with apparent slippage or loss of drive occurring.
There is an excellent write up on DIY servicing of these units by John Anderson in the W203/W209 Wikis that he & I built. There are some minor differences in the 722.9 Plus transmission fitted from approx August 2010 production including the new energy saving light fluid which is blue in colour 236.15 & not reverse compatible with older transmissions like the 236.14 material was.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 02-24-2016 at 10:12 AM.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by mbdiesel12
Glyn- Can you expand on the HTHS comment? I use Motul oilsin one of my Porsches and my MB. For my late model Porsche (gas) I use Motul5w40 X-cess. It has an HTHS of 3.7, ash of 1.1, and TBN of 10.1. It also meets229.5 spec and Porsche A40.
For my '12 MB Bluetec I use Motul X-clean. It has an HTHS of 3.64, ash of.8, and TBN of 7.5. It meets MB spec 229.51.
I have read that Motul is a Grp 4 base. I assume for both oils. Since thedifference in HTHS between the two oils is just a rounding error away from eachother, should I be concerned about both being too low per your HTHS comment ordid I get lucky and find a good oil for each.
The significant difference between the oils seems to be in TBN. Could it bethat the skimpy additive pack, reflected in the TBN of the 229.51 oils iscausing the problems?
Motul is a responsible company & is obviously using the same base oil for both products as we do even though we are a supermajor oilco. All I am saying is that the lower HTHS spec for diesels would allow formulators to use cheaper base stock. That does not mean that they will unless they are penny pinching or that horribly misleading term "optimising" a formulation. The difference between meeting specs & exceeding them. We go as far as using a number of ashless components in our 229.51/52 products to ensure that they are robust in service. I doubt that the issue is TBN related as even in terribly degraded samples there remains some Alkalinity Reserve.
EDIT: Another issue we have not considered here is NOACK values of the base fluid. (ie. evapourative thickening ~ loss of light ends of the fluid at high temperature). The reason I have not considered this is that all the base fluids used in these products should display good performance in NOACK Volatility & there is evidence of such high rates of oxidation.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 02-24-2016 at 11:32 AM.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by Messerchmidt
2010 ml bluetec
had the leaky seals issue fixed. had the intake and egr cleaned.
the mobil1 esp 5w30 was causing sludge. ran a liqui moly engine flush before the last oil change and switched to Top Tec 4605 5W-30 @ mb 229.52. no sludge issues. using the stock mann filter from benz.
I'm starting to hear Mobil 1 ESP too often in this saga. It might not mean anything but it raises suspicions. I would be very interested in their response to this issue. Hopefully they will reply soon. There are other failures that have not been on M1 ESP in other countries.
Do you think that MB is starting to have the same suspicions? Could that be the reason why the dealers, at least in my area in CA, are using the MB branded 229.52 oils?
It could be pure profit motive on the part of MB but I doubt it. We also don't know who makes the MB 229.52 product. Could still be M1 but I'm skeptical about that. I wonder if M1 is still factory fill now.
I'm starting to hear Mobil 1 ESP too often in this saga. It might not mean anything but it raises suspicions. I would be very interested in their response to this issue. Hopefully they will reply soon. There are other failures that have not been on M1 ESP in other countries.
I just put M1 0w30 ESP in my R320 CDI, and will do some oil analysis after a few thousand kms. My previous interval used the MB 229.52 and I did 3 oil analyses on that, at 4,000kms, 10,000kms, and 18,000kms.
Interesting: the ESP 5w30 does not meet the 229.52 spec and isn't distributed through MB. It does meet the 229.51 spec though.
The ESP 0w40 meets the 229.51 but not the 229.52; but IS distributed through MB
The ESP 0w30 is the only one that meets the 229.52 and is also distributed through MB
Also interesting: my local MB dealer sells the Mobil 1 0w40 for gassers but not the Mobil 1 ESP 0w30 for diesels.
According to this MB doc, the only spec suitable for my vehicle 251.125 is the 229.52
same for 164.125, 164.824, and 164.825 or basically all diesel w164 and x164 sold in North America whether Bluetec or CDI
Indeed ~ That is Polymerisation/Oxidation 101. The real question is why are so many of these engines trouble free at huge mileage with no apparent connection to more failures in what Benz calls torrid zones of the world e.g Dubai, Saudi, Africa? I more & more think the issue is fuel or fueling related possibly linked to certain lubricants where formulators have gone cheap to just meet specs & no more...."
...
There is an excellent write up on DIY servicing of these units by John Anderson in the W203/W209 Wikis that he & I built. There are some minor differences in the 722.9 Plus transmission fitted from approx August 2010 production including the new energy saving light fluid which is blue in colour 236.15 & not reverse compatible with older transmissions like the 236.14 material was.
Cold weather without extensive driving (hot engine) gives more fuel contamination, water and soot into the oil. Maybe it's the opposing theme on car batteries. Hot weather kills them and the dead battery is found in the winter. Oil is killed in the winter and body (sludge filled seized engine) is formed in the summer.
I couldn't find the W203/W209 Wiki, but did find lots of DIY on the 7G.
My 7G tranny is slipping (R and D) for the first quarter mile when the temp is < 30F or < -1C during the first start of the day. Any advise?
I'm starting to hear Mobil 1 ESP too often in this saga. It might not mean anything but it raises suspicions. I would be very interested in their response to this issue. Hopefully they will reply soon. There are other failures that have not been on M1 ESP in other countries.
the dealers here in canada no longer use it because the "contact ended"; they switched to penzoil 229.52. most likely because the esp forumla had major issues. i have also started to change the oil every 10k km, not 15k km as was suggested in the manual.
Cold weather without extensive driving (hot engine) gives more fuel contamination, water and soot into the oil. Maybe it's the opposing theme on car batteries. Hot weather kills them and the dead battery is found in the winter. Oil is killed in the winter and body (sludge filled seized engine) is formed in the summer.
I couldn't find the W203/W209 Wiki, but did find lots of DIY on the 7G.
My 7G tranny is slipping (R and D) for the first quarter mile when the temp is < 30F or < -1C during the first start of the day. Any advise?
fluid is low. get the whole system changed - pan,etc as go to somewhere where they know what they are doing.
Folks,
let us collect the data on the Bluetec. I have search ~40 cars on cars.com and found 20 cars with leaks and torn seats (from CarFax report on the site). Please add your car or any you know to the list. There is no such record of engine failure for any other car in the industry. M-B should recall the bluetecs and offer full repair and warranty. As a Material Scientist, I was stunned by the choice of material in that gasket. I never suspected anyone in Germany (one of the top countries in materials engineering) would do such a mistake rather than by Mercedes-Benz who has over 80 years of experience with diesel engines and have actually produced the best diesel engines in the world. Worse, the gasket is located deep in the engine that it would take a skilled technician between 25 to 35 hours to repair it, according to experts!M-B should have not used anything but metal gasket in that location. Here is the list, please add yours and submit your case to the Attorney General 1 Year Model VIN Mileage when leaked Date reported
formerly drove a 2010 ML350 BLUETEC, currently drive Mazda, Chevrolet, and Toyota
Originally Posted by mhasan4
Folks,
let us collect the data on the Bluetec. I have search ~40 cars on cars.com and found 20 cars with leaks and torn seats (from CarFax report on the site). Please add your car or any you know to the list. There is no such record of engine failure for any other car in the industry. M-B should recall the bluetecs and offer full repair and warranty. As a Material Scientist, I was stunned by the choice of material in that gasket. I never suspected anyone in Germany (one of the top countries in materials engineering) would do such a mistake rather than by Mercedes-Benz who has over 80 years of experience with diesel engines and have actually produced the best diesel engines in the world. Worse, the gasket is located deep in the engine that it would take a skilled technician between 25 to 35 hours to repair it, according to experts!M-B should have not used anything but metal gasket in that location. Here is the list, please add yours and submit your case to the Attorney General 1 Year Model VIN Mileage when leaked Date reported
Thanks for this data. Will you please direct us to the "list" to which you're referring and how to best submit our info? Is it in fact best to file with the Attorney General of New Jersey? If a valid case against MB is materializing for those of us affected by Bluetec / oil shortcomings, I'm willing to assist and participate. Also, I received the following notification today and will be checking on its merit this week and will report my findings in this thread:
"Thank you for contacting my office regarding your potential Mercedes Benz BlueTEC recall claim. Based on the information you have provided us, it appears as though you should have a claim for your diesel engine vehicle and the recent emissions scandals.
In order to start the claim process, all you need to do is submit some basic information. You can complete the paperwork online, without the need to print, by following this link: click here to fill out your paperwork.
Please fill out the questionnaire as completely as possible, sign the Contract of Employment, and click to submit the paperwork. If there is a question you do not know the answer to, just fill it in to the best of your ability and we will take it from there.
If you have any questions, please call my office at 1-800-223-3784. We look forward to hearing from you soon.
Adam Pulaski
Partner
The Pulaski Law Firm, P.L.L.C.
4615 Southwest Freeway, Suite 850 | Houston, TX 77027
(713) 664-4555 | (713) 664-7543 (fax) | (800) 223-3784 (toll free)"
Hello Krd2023,
Thank you. Let me summarize my thoughts:
1. From the number of engine leakage from the same location (oil cooler gaskets) at such a low mileage, it is obvious that there is a design and material fault originating from the manufacturer. The data in the table I have collected demonstrate this fact. When you add your car’s VIN and the mileage/date of leakage, we can strengthen our case. I collected the data from Carfax reports available online for cars that are for sale on cars.com. So, if you put your VIN number on the site or send it to my email (mhasan3@yahoo.com), I will add it to the table and publish it again for anyone to use it. Please ask others who had the same experience to publish their VIN.
2. Everyone of us can write a letter to the Attorney general of the state where the headquarter of MB is located. They are responsible to enforce the state’s consumer protection laws. If we all submit claims and support our claim with data like the one in the table, it will becomes obvious to the Attorney General that this is not normal wear and tear issue. It is a fundamental fault caused by the design of the engine and the choice of materials made for the gasket. They will force MB to compensate consumers for the fault or correct it.
3. The letter you got from the lawyer Pulaski is about emission standard. It is not about the oil leak. It may not apply to our cars. Most of the time, the lawyers make most of the money and the consumer like us get next to nothing. That case will not help us much.
4. I believe that you can also send the same letter to the Attorney General in your state. They are there to protect consumers in your state.
5. We need help to draft a good letter to the attorney General. I am not good in writing such letters. Any help? Any lawyer here with a faulty bluetec?
6. If you bought the car new from a dealer in your state, you can submit a complain to the small claim court (up to $10k) against the dealer using the same data to show it is an inherent fault and not wear and tear issue.
7. To file a complaint with NJ Attorney General go to: http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/Pag...Complaint.aspx
Scroll down to see how to file online or download a complaint form. There is a Lemon complaint too. Attached with this post is the general complaint form
formerly drove a 2010 ML350 BLUETEC, currently drive Mazda, Chevrolet, and Toyota
Thanks, mhasan4. I'll look into your seven points above. Yes, the Pulaski pursuit seems separate and is focused on emissions. In fact, I received a followup phone call from a Pulaski representative today who encouraged me to return my signed Contract of Employment as soon as possible. The contract shows a 33 1/3% fee (based on gross recovery before deduction of any expenses) to the attorneys if a judgment is in favor, or no fee otherwise. I asked if this will be a class-action suit and was told these will be individual cases for now. The representative stated that I'll likely be reimbursed for the costs I incurred for emissions-related repairs/labor and related diminished value on my 2010 ML350 Bluetec. I was told the case is in early stages, and that Pulaski is also involved in the Volkswagen emissions claims. I was also informed that I can still be reimbursed even if I no longer have possession of the car. I'll wait and see how this develops before I sign a Pulaski contract and engage.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by dave2001auto
Cold weather without extensive driving (hot engine) gives more fuel contamination, water and soot into the oil. Maybe it's the opposing theme on car batteries. Hot weather kills them and the dead battery is found in the winter. Oil is killed in the winter and body (sludge filled seized engine) is formed in the summer.
I couldn't find the W203/W209 Wiki, but did find lots of DIY on the 7G.
My 7G tranny is slipping (R and D) for the first quarter mile when the temp is < 30F or < -1C during the first start of the day. Any advise?
The Wiki is under Tools in the top toolbar of the forum pages. Your fuel contamination point is taken but more prevalent with gasoline engines ~ diesels heat up more quickly & run hotter. How do you know your transmission is slipping cold. Remember the car goes into high idle when cold & holds ratios for longer to warm the Cats. First thing to do is check fluid level at the correct temperature
I don't understand this comment "Oil is killed in the winter and body (sludge filled seized engine) is formed in the summer." Explain what you mean?? Sounds like an old wives tail unless I misconstrue what you are trying to say. Suffice to say that Gasoline engines generally form low temperature sludge while diesels produce high temperature sludge ~ period! Once operating temperature is reached, ambient conditions make little difference.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by Messerchmidt
the dealers here in canada no longer use it because the "contact ended"; they switched to penzoil 229.52. most likely because the esp forumla had major issues. i have also started to change the oil every 10k km, not 15k km as was suggested in the manual.
The Pennzoil material is the same as Shell. Shell today makes quite a lot of MB's OE lubricants along with Fuchs.
Lots of short winter commutes allow fuel and water to accumulate in the oil on both diesel and gas engines. The start of the oil degradation is in the winter. The oil is now bad. The oil with all the contaminates gels in the summer with full engine temperature or hotter.
The engine rpm goes up then the accelerator is pressed but the car will hardly more when the ambient is below 30 and car is not warmed up.
Last edited by dave2001auto; 03-18-2016 at 02:20 PM.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by dave2001auto
Lots of short winter commutes allow fuel and water to accumulate in the oil on both diesel and gas engines. The start of the oil degradation is in the winter. The oil is now bad. The oil with all the contaminates gels in the summer with full engine temperature or hotter.
The engine rpm goes up then the accelerator is pressed but the car will hardly more when the ambient is below 30 and car is not warmed up.
Nah! exactly the same thing happens in summer. Water is a by-product of combustion. On short trips from a cold start water can build up in the crankcase oil to 7 or 8% either winter or summer. All that will evapourate it off is running at operating temperature for extended periods. There is a direct relationship between water produced by combustion & the amount of fuel burned.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by dave2001auto
5 miles in the winter the engine has not reached warm, while the oil will be warm in the summer time driving off the water.
No it wont. You are wrong. When we were developing energy conserving oils I ran a fleet of 10 vehicles on the dyno at 6am, 2pm & 10pm daily for a year through both summer & winter over 10 & 20 Km's from a cold start. In that service the water level from combustion in the oil just continues to rise. We have some of the most sophisticated research labs in the world & I assure you that you are wrong.
02-22-2016, 11:26 PM
