1988 300TE - Misfires - Part #2
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1994 E320 Dragon Wagon
Too bad no major head gasket breach was spotted. Hope there was a minor one making for Mr. mis-fire.
About the orange, cracked plastic piece. What is it? I was too lazy to run the part number. Good macro photos by the way.
The freeze plug should not be a challenge. Find a rebuilder on line and second day a couple.
About the orange, cracked plastic piece. What is it? I was too lazy to run the part number. Good macro photos by the way.
The freeze plug should not be a challenge. Find a rebuilder on line and second day a couple.
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Too bad no major head gasket breach was spotted. Hope there was a minor one making for Mr. mis-fire.
About the orange, cracked plastic piece. What is it? I was too lazy to run the part number. Good macro photos by the way.
The freeze plug should not be a challenge. Find a rebuilder on line and second day a couple.
About the orange, cracked plastic piece. What is it? I was too lazy to run the part number. Good macro photos by the way.
The freeze plug should not be a challenge. Find a rebuilder on line and second day a couple.
Maybe that is my misfire all along? Either way the head gasket seems to be leaking around #6 if you look at the ring at 7 oclock. The freeze plug is my major coolant leak.
Oh and also I'm gonna replace the timing chain as I feel a little slack in it. Shouldn't be a whole lot of work with the head off, right?
Last edited by ps2cho; Jan 5, 2009 at 03:36 AM.
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From: Orland Park, Illinois
1994 E320 (current)
The orange piece is the suppressor housing that sits behind the rotor. I feel so silly not to have spotted that when I replaced the rotor + cap
Maybe that is my misfire all along? Either way the head gasket seems to be leaking around #6 if you look at the ring at 7 oclock. The freeze plug is my major coolant leak.
Oh and also I'm gonna replace the timing chain as I feel a little slack in it. Shouldn't be a whole lot of work with the head off, right?
Maybe that is my misfire all along? Either way the head gasket seems to be leaking around #6 if you look at the ring at 7 oclock. The freeze plug is my major coolant leak.
Oh and also I'm gonna replace the timing chain as I feel a little slack in it. Shouldn't be a whole lot of work with the head off, right?
Also I don't know that I would do much to the piston head surfaces. I you were not carefull you can get scratches on the cylinder walls. Also it has been my experience that it is near impossible to keep all that crap your breaking off from sliding down between the cylinder wall and the piston and that will do very bad and ugly things to Cylinder walls. I would leave them as it is. It is a lot of work and risk for no real payoff other than a picture you can post saying "look how clean". Also the 3m abrassive pad on the block surface is ok but I have found a good razor blade and some time will get a very clean surface and you don't get grit into the cylinders.
Are you having the head dipped, preassure tested and resurfaced?
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1992 300TE 4matic wagon
I don't agree at all. Any good rebuilder will clean the top surface of the block, along with the piston tops. That's why I said to have each cylinder at TDC (turning crank in the proper direction of normal travel), when you do it and cover the other ones....keep a shopvac handy and continually suck the debris off everything. It would be a 'sin' to leave those pistons that dirty with coke & carbon. The "payback" is that you start with a clean top end, instead of many miles of coke & carbon. There's no risk if you stay clean and every rebuilders book you can pick up will suggest the same thing-just to be very careful with aluminum parts-why I suggested the fiber circular pad on a rechargeable drill. He needs to take note to bring the engine back around to TDC on #1 when he's through cleaning-he can assist that with a pic of how it is now.
Without a head, it doesn't matter. When the piston is at the top on #1, it is Top Dead Center. The head will be timed to it. It's the cam that turns twice to every revolution of the crank. Unless everything is assembled, he doesn't have to concern himself with that.
Kevin
Without a head, it doesn't matter. When the piston is at the top on #1, it is Top Dead Center. The head will be timed to it. It's the cam that turns twice to every revolution of the crank. Unless everything is assembled, he doesn't have to concern himself with that.
Kevin
timing chain should not be that dificult witht he head off. Did you set the engine and head to Top Dead Center before removing the head? If you did not it may be a bit more tricky as ou have to make sur you get everything set correctly and on the right link.
Also I don't know that I would do much to the piston head surfaces. I you were not carefull you can get scratches on the cylinder walls. Also it has been my experience that it is near impossible to keep all that crap your breaking off from sliding down between the cylinder wall and the piston and that will do very bad and ugly things to Cylinder walls. I would leave them as it is. It is a lot of work and risk for no real payoff other than a picture you can post saying "look how clean". Also the 3m abrassive pad on the block surface is ok but I have found a good razor blade and some time will get a very clean surface and you don't get grit into the cylinders.
Are you having the head dipped, preassure tested and resurfaced?
Also I don't know that I would do much to the piston head surfaces. I you were not carefull you can get scratches on the cylinder walls. Also it has been my experience that it is near impossible to keep all that crap your breaking off from sliding down between the cylinder wall and the piston and that will do very bad and ugly things to Cylinder walls. I would leave them as it is. It is a lot of work and risk for no real payoff other than a picture you can post saying "look how clean". Also the 3m abrassive pad on the block surface is ok but I have found a good razor blade and some time will get a very clean surface and you don't get grit into the cylinders.
Are you having the head dipped, preassure tested and resurfaced?
Last edited by Real1shepherd; Jan 5, 2009 at 11:58 AM.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 844
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From: Orland Park, Illinois
1994 E320 (current)
I don't agree at all. Any good rebuilder will clean the top surface of the block, along with the piston tops. That's why I said to have each cylinder at TDC (turning crank in the proper direction of normal travel), when you do it and cover the other ones....keep a shopvac handy and continually suck the debris off everything. It would be a 'sin' to leave those pistons that dirty with coke & carbon. The "payback" is that you start with a clean top end, instead of many miles of coke & carbon. There's no risk if you stay clean and every rebuilders book you can pick up will suggest the same thing-just to be very careful with aluminum parts-why I suggested the fiber circular pad on a rechargeable drill. He needs to take note to bring the engine back around to TDC on #1 when he's through cleaning-he can assist that with a pic of how it is now (if he put the motor in TDC on #1 to start with).
Kevin
Kevin
Fiber pads also are great so long as the pistons are elevated to the top and he can block off the others as you stated. Some shop vacs have a crevas tool that looks like a very small funnel or seringe end on the end of the hose and it works wonders for clearing debris from the areas between the cylinder wall and piston. Just be carefull if you go this route. You don't wanna be blowing smoke out the tail pipe cause you missed some chunks and the scored the cylinder wall.
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Thanks for your input guys. I did not set it to TDC...but I have 2-3 weeks to have this done so I believe it would be most sensible to take it slow and make sure it is clean. I will take upmost care and clean them.
Do it right the first time....right? I don't wanna skip anything that is for sure!
I'm taking the head to a shop today to get it all cleaned up, tested and skimmed.
Do it right the first time....right? I don't wanna skip anything that is for sure!
I'm taking the head to a shop today to get it all cleaned up, tested and skimmed.
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Joined: Sep 2008
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1992 300TE 4matic wagon
I understand what you are saying. My only thing is that you said "any good rebuilder" and this is his first rebuild. There are ins and outs to rebuilds that he isn't going to know because he hasn't had some one teach him or hasn't gone through the process himself a dozen times. That is why I asked about the engine being top dead center before he started the tear down. If he did and the head will come back TDC to match then there is no risk of rotating the engine for cleaning the piston heads. If it is not TDC to start, for a first timer it may be difficult to get everything set back to TDC and correct as the marks for TDC on the head come around twice and the engine once and you can get it of by 180 dgrees if you are not carefull. If everything was TDC to begin with then your method would be great (I have done it beore as well) I was just thinking to add some caution to rushing into that. Other than that you are completely right.
Fiber pads also are great so long as the pistons are elevated to the top and he can block off the others as you stated. Some shop vacs have a crevas tool that looks like a very small funnel or seringe end on the end of the hose and it works wonders for clearing debris from the areas between the cylinder wall and piston. Just be carefull if you go this route. You don't wanna be blowing smoke out the tail pipe cause you missed some chunks and the scored the cylinder wall.
Fiber pads also are great so long as the pistons are elevated to the top and he can block off the others as you stated. Some shop vacs have a crevas tool that looks like a very small funnel or seringe end on the end of the hose and it works wonders for clearing debris from the areas between the cylinder wall and piston. Just be carefull if you go this route. You don't wanna be blowing smoke out the tail pipe cause you missed some chunks and the scored the cylinder wall.
I don't think I've seen that crevice tool you are talking about. That would be perfect for cylinder debris sucking. Are you talking about the adapter that goes form the large hose down to the smaller size? The crevice tools I've seen are angled at the end and not always perfect for this application. In the past, I just adapted down to the smaller tubing and used one long section in there. On the big shopvacs, if you go too small with suction tubing, you actually get less vacuum, as you create cavitation.
Kevin
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1992 300TE 4matic wagon
Thanks for your input guys. I did not set it to TDC...but I have 2-3 weeks to have this done so I believe it would be most sensible to take it slow and make sure it is clean. I will take upmost care and clean them.
Do it right the first time....right? I don't wanna skip anything that is for sure!
I'm taking the head to a shop today to get it all cleaned up, tested and skimmed.
Do it right the first time....right? I don't wanna skip anything that is for sure!
I'm taking the head to a shop today to get it all cleaned up, tested and skimmed.
Kevin
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Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Orland Park, Illinois
1994 E320 (current)
Here is a link to the shop vac attachment. All you have to do is take a Blade and cut the nozzle so that it is flat and then adjust your air port on the handle to allow more flow to come through at the base of the handle and this little bugger will suck up the small stuff in small confined spaces.
http://www.totalvac.com/parts/919-60...zmap=919-60-00
If you are really serious about a Vacuum for your car then check this one out. It has every attachement you will ever need for tight spaces and both vacuums and blows air. One of these is going in my garage after I build it.
http://www.metrovacworld.com/Shoppin...id=VacNBloAuto
http://www.totalvac.com/parts/919-60...zmap=919-60-00
If you are really serious about a Vacuum for your car then check this one out. It has every attachement you will ever need for tight spaces and both vacuums and blows air. One of these is going in my garage after I build it.
http://www.metrovacworld.com/Shoppin...id=VacNBloAuto
Last edited by GEDaggett; Jan 5, 2009 at 02:05 PM.
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 186
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1992 300TE 4matic wagon
Here is a link to the shop vac attachment. All you have to do is take a Blade and cut the nozzle so that it is flat and then adjust your air port on the handle to allow more flow to come through at the base of the handle and this little bugger will suck up the small stuff in small confined spaces.
http://www.totalvac.com/parts/919-60...zmap=919-60-00
If you are really serious about a Vacuum for your car then check this one out. It has every attachement you will ever need for tight spaces and both vacuums and blows air. One of these is going in my garage after I build it.
http://www.metrovacworld.com/Shoppin...id=VacNBloAuto
http://www.totalvac.com/parts/919-60...zmap=919-60-00
If you are really serious about a Vacuum for your car then check this one out. It has every attachement you will ever need for tight spaces and both vacuums and blows air. One of these is going in my garage after I build it.
http://www.metrovacworld.com/Shoppin...id=VacNBloAuto
Another route I've considered is taking a shopvac and securing it to a wall in the garage-then running hose from it much like at a DIY car wash place. But then I like the idea of a manageable floor vacuum better, methinks. I do have a fascination for vacuum devices, sad but true.
If you like car detailing accessories, this place in the end all. It was started by a guy who still had his college Porsche and decided to start a detail catalog service. I had his first catalog (back in the 80's, I think). Anyway, if you were even into Concours competition, you could buy your supplies here. His polishing cloths are unbelievably soft and lint free. He has a lot of other cool stuff as well:http://www.griotsgarage.com/home.do
Kevin
Last edited by Real1shepherd; Jan 5, 2009 at 02:42 PM.
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Man it keeps adding up in $$$!
Seems that a few of my spark plug holes' threads are done for...so gotta have that fixed too now....
Also, it seems my crank position sensor looks like the wire's cover has cracks in it. I think it would be in my best interest to replace it...Right?
...Well at least I think it is the CPS. There are two wires that go behind the back of the block.
And after all of this....Not even 100% it will solve my misfire. At least my leaks will be solved I guess. Can park my car back in the apartment complex without fear of getting it towed due to the leaks.
Got the rockers + cam off the head tonight so gonna take it off to the shop tomorrow. He said turnaround time should be 3-4 days.
In the mean time I'll get the water pump + timing chain replaced. Won't be until the weekend after this that the car should be up and running and see if all this effort really fixed one of my main problems! If it doesn't......C4 should do the trick
Seems that a few of my spark plug holes' threads are done for...so gotta have that fixed too now....
Also, it seems my crank position sensor looks like the wire's cover has cracks in it. I think it would be in my best interest to replace it...Right?
...Well at least I think it is the CPS. There are two wires that go behind the back of the block.
And after all of this....Not even 100% it will solve my misfire. At least my leaks will be solved I guess. Can park my car back in the apartment complex without fear of getting it towed due to the leaks.
Got the rockers + cam off the head tonight so gonna take it off to the shop tomorrow. He said turnaround time should be 3-4 days.
In the mean time I'll get the water pump + timing chain replaced. Won't be until the weekend after this that the car should be up and running and see if all this effort really fixed one of my main problems! If it doesn't......C4 should do the trick
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 844
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From: Orland Park, Illinois
1994 E320 (current)
Man it keeps adding up in $$$!
Also, it seems my crank position sensor looks like the wire's cover has cracks in it. I think it would be in my best interest to replace it...Right?
...Well at least I think it is the CPS. There are two wires that go behind the back of the block.
Got the rockers + cam off the head tonight so gonna take it off to the shop tomorrow. He said turnaround time should be 3-4 days.
Also, it seems my crank position sensor looks like the wire's cover has cracks in it. I think it would be in my best interest to replace it...Right?
...Well at least I think it is the CPS. There are two wires that go behind the back of the block.
Got the rockers + cam off the head tonight so gonna take it off to the shop tomorrow. He said turnaround time should be 3-4 days.
Bummer with the spark plug threads. But better to find that stuff out when you have it apart then back together and reassembling. If can afford it replace anything that is questionable.
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I always leave the head complete and the shop takes it and does all they needed to. I guess either way is fine they don't really need the other stuff but I have them check the valve seats and stem seals and pressure test it.
Bummer with the spark plug threads. But better to find that stuff out when you have it apart then back together and reassembling. If can afford it replace anything that is questionable.
Bummer with the spark plug threads. But better to find that stuff out when you have it apart then back together and reassembling. If can afford it replace anything that is questionable.
Ya bummer, but it is what it is.
I have new guides and stem seals that I am giving to him....Might as well do it now, right? Nothing to lose especially as a professional is doing it so I can't screw it up
Any comments about which wire is the CPS? There are two that go to the back of the head.
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So pissed off!!! Took 2 hours due to traffic to drive 20 miles and he closed an hour earlier than he told me 
Just realized this thread is 6 pages of utter failure lol. One of these days one of my posts will have some actual positive results...I'll make it my goal.
This is what I'm driving right now in the mean time (Dad's):
Thing is a beast! 5.9L V8.
Just realized this thread is 6 pages of utter failure lol. One of these days one of my posts will have some actual positive results...I'll make it my goal.
This is what I'm driving right now in the mean time (Dad's):
Thing is a beast! 5.9L V8.
Last edited by ps2cho; Jan 9, 2009 at 10:12 PM.
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Got the water pump off today. Got a nice new Graf one waiting to go in soon as I receive the gasket from AutohausArizona on Tuesday.
The lower left bolt is an... absolute....ly lovely bolt to reach
You have to remove that crossmember that goes from the lower timing cover to behind the steering pump pulley which requires the pulley to be removed. After that I was able to reach it....but there is just not enough space to move the bolt otherwise. The other three were easy as the intake side could be moved enough.
Last two pictures are just a simple spray with engine degreaser....Havn't even gone to town with a brush yet. Not too bad! She's gonna be super clean by the end
The lower left bolt is an... absolute....ly lovely bolt to reach
You have to remove that crossmember that goes from the lower timing cover to behind the steering pump pulley which requires the pulley to be removed. After that I was able to reach it....but there is just not enough space to move the bolt otherwise. The other three were easy as the intake side could be moved enough. Last two pictures are just a simple spray with engine degreaser....Havn't even gone to town with a brush yet. Not too bad! She's gonna be super clean by the end
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Head is in the shop right now.
What do you guys make of the Tensioner guide that is worn a little bit? The dealer wanted $88 for that part! Not sure if it really needs to be replaced for that. Scroll up for the picture.
I'm still really debating whether I should do the chain or not. Like I said there appears to be little if no slack at all....The inner + outer guide look okay...it is just that tensioner guide that I am worried about. I would prefer to not have to replace the chain right now if possible. I'm hearing arguments saying "leaving it...it should last easily 200k+ miles" and others saying "just replace it".
What do you guys make of the Tensioner guide that is worn a little bit? The dealer wanted $88 for that part! Not sure if it really needs to be replaced for that. Scroll up for the picture.
I'm still really debating whether I should do the chain or not. Like I said there appears to be little if no slack at all....The inner + outer guide look okay...it is just that tensioner guide that I am worried about. I would prefer to not have to replace the chain right now if possible. I'm hearing arguments saying "leaving it...it should last easily 200k+ miles" and others saying "just replace it".
Last edited by ps2cho; Jan 12, 2009 at 10:51 PM.
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Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Orland Park, Illinois
1994 E320 (current)
Head is in the shop right now.
What do you guys make of the Tensioner guide that is worn a little bit? The dealer wanted $88 for that part! Not sure if it really needs to be replaced for that. Scroll up for the picture.
I'm still really debating whether I should do the chain or not. Like I said there appears to be little if no slack at all....The inner + outer guide look okay...it is just that tensioner guide that I am worried about. I would prefer to not have to replace the chain right now if possible. I'm hearing arguments saying "leaving it...it should last easily 200k+ miles" and others saying "just replace it".
What do you guys make of the Tensioner guide that is worn a little bit? The dealer wanted $88 for that part! Not sure if it really needs to be replaced for that. Scroll up for the picture.
I'm still really debating whether I should do the chain or not. Like I said there appears to be little if no slack at all....The inner + outer guide look okay...it is just that tensioner guide that I am worried about. I would prefer to not have to replace the chain right now if possible. I'm hearing arguments saying "leaving it...it should last easily 200k+ miles" and others saying "just replace it".
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From: San Jose
300TE / 300E / 300CE
Since you're in a "while the head's off" situation you need to determine the life expectancy of these each of these parts. The chain and tensioner should last 250-300k or the life of the car, I'm not sure about guides. IIRC you have to join the link which creates a possible failure point and the cogs may not perfectly match the new chain. Replace it if you're you certain you will do as good a job as the trained Mercedes assembler.
If the gasket failed at 80k then it stands to reason you may also have another gasket failure in another 80k or so.
I'm surprised the water pump failed, I had one last to 160k. I had another fail over 260k but I'm not sure if it been replaced before I bought the car.
It's a good idea to replace parts proactively if you bundle the work to save on the labor. If you really want complete peace of mind, performance, and reliability as if it were new, you'd have to replace about $15k of parts (all wear parts, sensors, electric components, etc). I believe most of us are taking advantage of these cars ability to run and perform well with 100k+ mileage so we replace them more reactively than proactively. Some have been fortunate in that few problems arise so they wouldn't need to be on these forums, lol. I actually enjoy learning about the car and how others have solved problems.
I hope you find a solution to the miss-fire after all this. My guess is it's in the fuel delivery system. Have you checked the fuel quality?
If the gasket failed at 80k then it stands to reason you may also have another gasket failure in another 80k or so.
I'm surprised the water pump failed, I had one last to 160k. I had another fail over 260k but I'm not sure if it been replaced before I bought the car.
It's a good idea to replace parts proactively if you bundle the work to save on the labor. If you really want complete peace of mind, performance, and reliability as if it were new, you'd have to replace about $15k of parts (all wear parts, sensors, electric components, etc). I believe most of us are taking advantage of these cars ability to run and perform well with 100k+ mileage so we replace them more reactively than proactively. Some have been fortunate in that few problems arise so they wouldn't need to be on these forums, lol. I actually enjoy learning about the car and how others have solved problems.
I hope you find a solution to the miss-fire after all this. My guess is it's in the fuel delivery system. Have you checked the fuel quality?
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^ Understood thanks both of you. I think I will stand by my decision. My reasoning is that this entire head rebuild is because of two reasons A: My Misfire B: Fluid losses.
The chain cannot be the cause of my misfire and so I think it would be unwise to try and replace something that is causing no problems, nor looks like it should do for any time soon (5+ years at least). Let's resolve this misfire first before digging too deep into territory that could cause more problems that it is worth. Make sense?
Once the misfire is resolved, I think I would feel totally comfortable spending a weekend just doing the chain in a few years time. It really doesn't take that long to reach the point where I am right now. Two, Three hours tops.
Oh and for the record, my pump didn't fail...it was just leaking according to an Indy I took the car too. After we pulled it out we found the leak so he was right.
Just spent another $80 on some oil filters, new air filter, steering damper (saw it was leaking slightly) and the heater hose at the back of the engine)....Gotta kinda wrap it up at this point. Still gotta pay the head shop too.
Expensive stuff, but I should have a strong top end by the end of this and I can safely say that my misfire is nothing mechanical.
The chain cannot be the cause of my misfire and so I think it would be unwise to try and replace something that is causing no problems, nor looks like it should do for any time soon (5+ years at least). Let's resolve this misfire first before digging too deep into territory that could cause more problems that it is worth. Make sense?
Once the misfire is resolved, I think I would feel totally comfortable spending a weekend just doing the chain in a few years time. It really doesn't take that long to reach the point where I am right now. Two, Three hours tops.
Oh and for the record, my pump didn't fail...it was just leaking according to an Indy I took the car too. After we pulled it out we found the leak so he was right.
Just spent another $80 on some oil filters, new air filter, steering damper (saw it was leaking slightly) and the heater hose at the back of the engine)....Gotta kinda wrap it up at this point. Still gotta pay the head shop too.
Expensive stuff, but I should have a strong top end by the end of this and I can safely say that my misfire is nothing mechanical.
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1992 300TE 4matic wagon
Head is in the shop right now.
What do you guys make of the Tensioner guide that is worn a little bit? The dealer wanted $88 for that part! Not sure if it really needs to be replaced for that. Scroll up for the picture.
I'm still really debating whether I should do the chain or not. Like I said there appears to be little if no slack at all....The inner + outer guide look okay...it is just that tensioner guide that I am worried about. I would prefer to not have to replace the chain right now if possible. I'm hearing arguments saying "leaving it...it should last easily 200k+ miles" and others saying "just replace it".
What do you guys make of the Tensioner guide that is worn a little bit? The dealer wanted $88 for that part! Not sure if it really needs to be replaced for that. Scroll up for the picture.
I'm still really debating whether I should do the chain or not. Like I said there appears to be little if no slack at all....The inner + outer guide look okay...it is just that tensioner guide that I am worried about. I would prefer to not have to replace the chain right now if possible. I'm hearing arguments saying "leaving it...it should last easily 200k+ miles" and others saying "just replace it".
Kevin
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I think I have some good news!
Got a call from the machine shop today that its all ready to be picked up. He skimmed and pressure tested it. He said that the valve guides were totally busted up...all 6 of them.
Could that be my elusive misfire after all?
Got a call from the machine shop today that its all ready to be picked up. He skimmed and pressure tested it. He said that the valve guides were totally busted up...all 6 of them.
Could that be my elusive misfire after all?
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From: Orland Park, Illinois
1994 E320 (current)
Very well could be, especially if it was keeping an exhaust vale open during combustion. Hope that is it.
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Very excited.
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From: San Jose
300TE / 300E / 300CE
Do you mind sharing the machining costs? The head work looks great.
How did you remove the exhaust down tube bolts? I'm removing my engine and they are very difficult to reach...
How did you remove the exhaust down tube bolts? I'm removing my engine and they are very difficult to reach...
