DunninLA

Hi.

Thanks to those who posted about the cutting out of my engine when the gas was below 4 gallons.

This brings up a larger issue of dissatisfaction with MB reliability. Before my wife and I both switched to MB, we drove Honda Accords. The last was a 1987.

Our Hondas seemed to never have *any* problems. Granted, we never took any beyond 80k miles, but nothing but tuneups in all that time.

Our MB S and E classes seem to have another $1,500 problem every dealer visit. My car, a 2001 E320:

- Open Shifter replaced at 15k due to orange juice spilling in the shift gate from glass holder
- Open Shifter replaced at 35k same issue -- with promise to charge me the next time!
- Motor mounts replaced at 60k due to excessive engine shake
- Right catalytic converter replaced at 75k due to broken internal parts
- A/C fluid seemed to drain out slowly. Problems seems to have gone away.
- Display replaced at 94k due to time and gear numbers missing pixels
- Gas tank replaced at 95k due to reserve tank/regular tank switchover being messed up, resulting in insufficient gas reaching engine, reduced power and big engine shake.

Now, I drive conservatively, and mostly freeway. Car is almost always garaged.

I'm beginning to think my next car might be an Acura, Lexus or Infinity. Everyone says they are too soft, but I found my 2001 E320 to be way too soft when I bought it, so I installed Eibach springs, AMB wheels (17"), Koni shocks. No reason I cannot tighten up a Japanese car either I think.

Is my experience similar to yours? Are Mercedes too compicated to be really reliable? Anyone else thinking about moving to a more reliable car next time?

Musikmann

My 1st expereince was that I bought a "cheap" used MB with too many miles and previous owners and got burned. I decided the best way to buy an MB is to find a pampered one-owner with 50,000 miles or less, buy from a dealer who is willing to perform a CPO inspection, and then pay to extend the 12/100,000 CPO warranty to 24 or 36 months. If your car is under a Starmark/CPO (or new car for that matter) warranty, you have very little to fear. This is unfortunate, but it is the nature of the beast. Mercedes-Benz remains a luxurious automobile, but is no longer synonymous with quality and dependability. Based solely on your thread, I would buy a Lexus, Acura, or an Infinity if I were you. Good Luck!

ohlord

Seems like you're dissatisfied with the car and not the operator.Orange juice,twice,and you complain about the car.Learn to repair it yourself or by all means get a 87 honda and enjoy it.
ohlord

DunninLA

Ohlord -- When it first happened I asked them if they could put a leather sleeve or something to cover the open shift gate. When you think about it, does *any* other car place the cup holder (drinks *do* spill, it is called the laws of physics) right over an open link to the transmission?

They told me they realize it was an engineering gaff, but there was not a way to cover the gate. You will notice in subsequent versions of MB, there are no more open shift gates with cup holders hanging over them.

fatt-dad

the juice spill on the shifter is just crazy!! The same thing happened to my wife and they were STOPPED cold on the interstate. Tow truck, several hundred dollar repair and to me it's just plain planned obsolescence (sp). How careful to you have to be?

I feel your pain on that one.

I have an 01 E320 wagon.

f-d

ohlord

I was only thinking that it is very easy to remove the wood and the whole assembly and repair it.I always think most of the people here do all or most of their own repairs,maybe not so?
anyway don't give up the newer ones are getting better,supposedly,so eventually they will come on the market

( used )and we will have more gizmos to learn.
ohlord

Musikmann

I think most people simply do not use the center console cupholder, and I have seen some people say that they removed it all together. I do not know if you can rig it such that you have another cubby hole to store something, but there is apparently some way to keep the door to it closed.

A guy somewhere in Europe suggested placing a small 4oz cup in there because it fits perfectly. I'm in the camp that does not use it at all.

lkchris

Your defective CAT at 75K miles should have been replaced free under warranty.

dsmith

honestly, what you listed are pretty minor issues for a 100k miles modern car. the other makes you listed have their own problems as well. most of these modern luxury cars are pretty obnoxious out of warranty.

musikmann's suggestion is what i do. my 2002 BMW has 50k on it and is is under CPO warranty. my 99 E320 has 45k on it. i'll keep each for a year or so and sell them for what i paid and get something else and do the same.

you can drive cars like these for <$1k per year if you buy right, and swap every year or two to mitigate large expenses. my E320 has 4 new michelins, new brakes, MAF and refinished wheels. I'll probably do 1 or 2 oil changes during my ownership, and dealer will do 2 free major detailing jobs per year.

the bmw i had to put front brakes, tires, fluids and filters on, but was about $4k undervalued due to being a wagon on a dealer lot that sat for 3 months. i traded 2 cars for it.

check out Car and Driver's long term test of the Acura RL, and you'll see the difficulty of building reliable cars with all of the electronics these days.

over 100k miles, expect to spend $3k+ per year to maintain any luxury car. price a starter job for an LS400. depreciation or maintenance. take your pick. i'm trying to mitigate both by buying a good car and keeping a short time. my porsche 911, otoh, stays in my garage and has received $4k in maintenance and $4k in performance upgrades in the last 5k miles at 130k miles. my saab 900 turbo has had $1500 this past year for ignition, a/c, wheels/tires, engine mounts, brakes, shocks, etc. it has 215k miles. i do all my own work, so these are parts costs only! pay to play.
David

dsmith

depends on how many years, also.

Musikmann

Thank you for mentioning my comment in your post, and to be honest, I was thinking about some of the same issues. I don't think DunninLA knows what it means to own a Mercedes. After all, to have gone from Honda Accords to Mercedes and to have compared the two in that fashion (80,000 Hondas vs. 100,000+ MBs) is idiotic.

For example, I have a 1991 Toyota Camry LE V6 with 100,000 miles and I can say practically the same thing about that car. I have had to replace the power steering pump and the 2 front half-axles (you cannot buy just the boots by themselves) because the boots rotted and would no longer contain grease. Other than that, it has only required the recommended 15,000 and 30,000 miles services and oil changes.

In my humble opinion, DunninLA should buy a ricer and bid this forum a fond farewell. He is one of many MB owners who join here to whine about their car's performance and reliability. I bought a Mercedes because I wanted to own one and I was, and still am, willing to tolerate the various idiosyncrasies that they have.

Wadster

The independent Mercedes trained mechanic I went to explained that 60K is about the typical life of hydraulic motor mounts. But he also said that's the price of designing parts that go the extra step to eliminate vibration.

Are some of these parts over-engineered to the point where they're more susceptible to failure? Absolutely. They're Germans after all. It's what they do to strive for more performance.

Musikmann

Thank you for your input. The question of over-engineering has come up many times before, and I believe this to be the case. It seems to me, that the German automotive engineers strive to be on the cutting edge of technology. Then, Lexus buys a new M-B, disassembles it to find any miniscule faults, and then redesigns and improves upon it. Who wins and who loses in this situation? I think M-B loses while Lexus gains market share, but at a substantially lesser R&D expense.

What is needed are some enforceable international patents to protect the real genius behind the various innovative features. The Japs have been doing this for a long time (not only with cars, but with almost any product you care to name) and I'd like to see an end to them usurping German technology.

One last dig: Anyone who is careless enough to drink, and spill, orange juice in a Mercedes should be forbidden by law to own one. And then to reference the laws of physics (yes, fluid will find it's lowest point due to Newton's Laws of Gravity I think). Buy another rice rocket and kindly leave us alone in our Mercedes misery.

Yacht Master

You are right, get a Honda they love OJ.

Bye-bye

dsmith

ok, i wasn't trying to run him off, and i seriously doubt his 87 honda could be considered a rice rocket. my point was really that even a new honda will have more expensive problems than an old honda. hell, the most bullet proof car ever made was the 80's e30 3 series BMW. it was $25k in 87. the 88 M3 was almost $35k! you got what you paid for. guess what, after the japanese broke the luxury market in the late 80's early 90's, the Germans fell apart trying to get the cost down. the cars got weaker and more problematic, then better in the late 90's. remember the e36 M3 was only $35k in 95! you could buy a 3 series for $20k! cars are getting more disposable, so don't expect to run to 200-300k miles like the 80's german cars without HUGE cash infusion. there's a reason why $100k cars plummet to $10-$20k in 5-10 yrs. nobody can afford to keep them running out of warranty. look at what an S600 is worth and what an E320 is worth. about the same within a couple years, but the S600 was $100k more new!

i owned a repair shop the last few years that serviced about 500 cars per month. i can tell you that hondas and toyotas had plenty of problems over 75k and are ready for scrap before 200k. somewhat better than domestics, but still $400 for a corolla starter job, $300 window regs, plenty of electrical gremlins, transmissions, axles, wheel bearings, broken control arms, cooling systems, etc. luxury cars have all that plus more computers to die, convenience features that will fail, and lots more suspension bushings and aluminum parts to replace and bend.

so,when someone is thinking honda vs mercedes, they need to be clear in their mind that they are really deciding to chose between simpler or more complex vehicle. the actual long term quality of most makes today seems to be about the same, just chose the level of complexity you're willing to put up with.
David

ProV1

thanks for your input. as you mention, there's gotta be a reason why our cars are so damn cheap & worth a bag of toilet paper after 5-7 years. cars are disposables now and manufacturers build cars knowing they won't last for 13-15 years.

given outstanding lease deals on many new cars nowadays, perhaps the best strategy is to lease brand new cars and 'throw them away' after 3-4 yrs.

Musikmann

My apologies to DunninLA, and to you David. I just re-read last night's post (sober this time) and I was pretty nasty. Hondas are reasonaby good cars, and so are Acuras. I just happen to prefer Toyotas, because my family has owned several and we have always had good luck with them. But, the 100k Camry is the oldest and highest mileage one of all.


It means a lot when any of you guys with this type of "hands on" experience make comments. And I forgot to mention that my Camry sunroof became stuck slightly open, and the Toyota dealer wanted to compleltely re-build it (about $1200). Some of the parts were no longer available so I found one at a salvage yard (complete OEM) for $50 and a guy fixed it - total about $125.

Haha, then the power steering pump I told you about: Toyota wanted over $800 for an OEM new part (for some reason they do not offer factory reconditioned). With dealer labor, that would have been about $1400. So, they went through 3 from NAPA before they got one to function properly - close to $700 w/labor.

Musikmann

I think this is a valid point and worthy of consideration. My stragedy now is to find a pampered one-owner (or posibbly one-lessee) 3-4 yo Mercedes and buy it as a CPO just to have that factory warranty. That is what I am doing right now, and so far, so good. The squeaky steering column issue was reapired at no charge and that would have cost several hundred. But I have not gotten my money out it yet. I'll have to wait and see what the next 12 months/20,000 miles will bring.

Dema

I think it's matter of luck. I owned Chevy Montecarlo and had zero problems up to 76K miles, then I traded it in. GM is known as very unreliable cars though. I had Lexus and always had some problems, mostly with brakes. Certainly overengineering is a bad sign. For this reason I do not buy Sony. So if MB products are overengineered, then we shouldn't buy them. Thanks for the post. It's good food for thoughts which next car get.

Wadster

Going by that train of thought, you'll be reduced to basic transportation econo-boxes. In the rush to add more electronics, features, and other assorted gadgets, ALL luxury and semi-luxury cars will become "over-engineered" to a degree. We're more than a full decade past the era of the nuts'n bolts car. Drive -by-wire, brake-by-wire, heck even Park-by-wire is now available. None of these things will be easy or cheap to fix unless you're trained and have access to purpose made computers. Some tools are make if not model specific!

What does this all mean? It means those able to afford these cars when they're brand new will dump them as soon as warranty's expire. They don't want the hassle of repairs and why should they if they can afford another factory fresh one? People like myself, who buy these cars at greatly reduced prices will have to factor in repairs on stuff that reaches its life cycle. You just have to do your homework and realize what you're getting into. But when you buck up and do what's necessary, it isn't like you wasted the money. No, what you end up with is finely performing machine that you feel good in. I know I do.

Dema

It doesn't look like fate for me, if you want better car, then expect it break a lot. Well design can take over of complexity. The problem is that car makers trying cutting cost so always look for cheaper suppliers. From other side they trying to catch competitors and overengineer certain solutions. MB as a company with long history shoul have problem with updating engineering staff, so I think it's a problem why MB cars temporary are lacking in reliability.

Musikmann

I owned a couple of Porsche 911s in the mid-1970s. At that time, they were completely hand-built by teams of several sub-specialists (power train guy, paint guy, etc.) I bought mine used, but in 1976, they cost about $16,000 - obviously the Turbos were more. Mercedes were handmade at the time too, and I think were comparably priced.

So, what happened? I don't know the year, but Lexus, Acura and Infinity entered the luxury car market and Daimler began to lose market share. A decision had to be made to satisfy the shareholders, so to retain the same profit margins, they sought out cheaper materials and began to "employ" robots to assemble them. It's a shame, but I think you get the point. The "Golden Years" of Mercedes-Benz is a bygone era, and the approximate year that ended was around 1990.

DunninLA

some random replies --

- most of my posts are not complaints, dating back about four years
- I most certainly *do* know what owning a Mercedes is about -- 1990 190E, 1992 320SE, 1996 C280, 1999 S320, 2001 E320, 2002 S430.
- I'm not really concerned why MB may have become less reliable than the equivalently priced Lexus, Infinity or Acura... I'm more concerned whether these other choices are in fact more reliable. I have a gut feeling they are.
- There is indeed a perception value to owning a car considered "the best" when I was in grade school. I mean Janis Joplin immortalized MB in that song of hers. That perception I believe allows MB to have lower quality standards without lowering the price...
- Having owned Mercedes exclusively for the past 16 years, the perceptive value of driving an MB has worn off the the extent that it doesn't mean a lot to me anymore. I just want a great car that is more reliable than most. I don't care what the badge is on the hood like I used to.

dsmith

i think you'll find one of the big differences in say a Lexus vs MB or BMW is the dealer service. Lexus treats you as a customer while the others as an annoyance. there are always exceptions, as dealers are independent, but i've found Toyota and Honda service to be exceptional. Like replacing an Accord transmission 10k miles out of warranty because, "it should not have failed that early." i get tired of people trying to make me feel privileged to drive their cars.

it's no big deal, really. get a lexus next time and see how it is. in the end, it's just a car. hell, i'll probably get a Jaguar next time, just because i haven't had one. personally, i think my E320 drives like a Buick, the seats suck and everything feels pretty flimsy and cheap, but it does the job, gets good mileage (24mpg on 89 octane) and my clients are impressed. i can't imagine someone paying $50k for one of these!
David

DunninLA

David, I've reached that same point of ambivalence as I sense you have. Who knows, maybe I'll get a Lexus in two years (at which point I plan to give/sell the car to my then 16 yr. old).