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I was not at 70 mph when SBC failed. That was the other guy. He was driving 70 mph because he couldn't brake. His SBC dacided to stop working without warning.
Your idea that reagular SBC maintenance can help has no sence. If therre is data stored saying that the threshold is near why wouldn't there be warning before it fails, or this is designers way to punish negligence by deth?
Your number game has no sense either. Driving a car is not bingo. Even a smallest chance that brakes fail without warning is unexceptible.
Mishar, Never said it was you that drove through a red light that fast. It was directed at the person WHO did say that.
Mishar, clearly you are super bitter and upset about what has occurred. Not sure what you want anyone to do for you but clearly there is nothing anyone can say to you or about sbc to justify unit failure. Contact MB in Germany to rectify your bitterness.
hangit, it's just a poor design. It can be inspected and serviced but by the system being so out of date, no tech or business is going to go out of their way beyond a safety state inspection to poke around in a sbc unit.
What's most amusing about SBC owners is even if you were to be notified of unit failure saltiness will still occur.... The next thing owners are going to B about is the price. So damnned if you do, damned if you don't.
post your vin of your vehicle because i find it highly doubtful that a w211 with sbc and 82 service visits and not once having issues with sbc, possible? YES. Likely, NO! haha.
Thank you. I would love to find out more info on this vehicle. If you can dig something up, it would be appreciated.
But why were you going 70mph through an intersection with a stop light?
In FL we have state highways whose speed limit is 65mph, granted, the speed usually drops to 55mph when there is an intersection close by. I honestly can't remember what the posted limit was, but I'll admit I tend to drive fast. Even at 55mph, it would have been dangerous. You better believe I drive slower and more cautiously now.
Crazy, that's not in my service log. Closest thing I have is "Brakes checked at 76,207 mi at Valley Motors"
Where do you get this info? I guess I need to have a more in depth discussion with my dealer. Thanks again
Crazy, that's not in my service log. Closest thing I have is "Brakes checked at 76,207 mi at Valley Motors"
Where do you get this info? I guess I need to have a more in depth discussion with my dealer. Thanks again
Usually, if you have your "MB" dealer perform your brake fluid flushes, they go in and make sure the sbc unit has the latest software updates. I am sure this is something MB has them check as part of the fluid flush. (If they can increase the sbc activation counts through the software update, there is less of a chance they will have to pay for a new sbc unit under their ten year warranty. It costs less for MB to update the software than to replace the sbc unit!). I do not believe that the technician checks the sbc activation counts, as the tech wants to get done ASAP to move on to his/her next job.
Mike T.
Crazy, that's not in my service log. Closest thing I have is "Brakes checked at 76,207 mi at Valley Motors"
Where do you get this info? I guess I need to have a more in depth discussion with my dealer. Thanks again
VMI should and most of the times has all info on anything related to vehicle, if and only you take it to the dealer to get work done though. And no problem!
Personally, the system has saved me from more accidents (at least one could have been fatal) than it has hurt me from (none). There are at least three people and one guardrail that I DIDN'T hit because of this system.
It has never leaked on me, seems to be all very rugged metallic lines. I've owned the car since new in 06.
When the pump fails I'll get a new pump and go another 10 years.
Personally, the system has saved me from more accidents (at least one could have been fatal) than it has hurt me from (none). There are at least three people and one guardrail that I DIDN'T hit because of this system.
I've seen a few anecdotes like this. Can't say I've been in a situation where the system acted fundamentally different than a normal brake system, but maybe I'm just not paying attention.
What is it about the SBC system that you can attribute to being the SBC system specifically vs a regular brake system? Or rather how would a regular brake system have failed you and possibly killed you?
I've seen a few anecdotes like this. Can't say I've been in a situation where the system acted fundamentally different than a normal brake system, but maybe I'm just not paying attention.
What is it about the SBC system that you can attribute to being the SBC system specifically vs a regular brake system? Or rather how would a regular brake system have failed you and possibly killed you?
The worst was an 18 wheel truck that tried to move lanes on top of me. Had no choice but to get off the shoulder: two wheels on the asphalt, two in the grass. That can go bad in a hurry, obviously, if different stopping power from different surfaces causes the car to veer. But the system worked flawlessly in keeping the car lined up without any input from me.
Last edited by Robert Clayton; 05-19-2017 at 10:05 PM.
W211 E320 CDI Sportpackage With Carlsson CD32 Chip 2004
SBC Brakes are Superb. Instant responsiveness with splendid accuracy.
They won't fail if u have the SW update or SBC pump from built year 2013. U can see this on the Unit. Remember, if u get some error (not the red one) try to replace the brake pedal switch first. 14 $ and 5 minutes work. They tend to fail.
I'm now dealing with the SBC issue on my 2005 E320 CDI with just under 160,000 miles. I had the visit workshop notice for brakes (white warning). I specifically took it to the local MB dealer and told them I was there versus an interdependent shop to make sure I did not have an issue with my SBC unit. I was pretty sure I just needed front brake pads and possibly new rotors.
I was told a thorough inspection would be done and they would get back to me. I then received a VERY detailed list of suggested work need and recommended. Everything from a windshield ding, to motor mounts (which curiously were recently replaced at an independent shop), to the actual rotors and pads needed on the front. NO recommendation or notes about SBC issues.
I ok'd the front brake service and another minor issue for just under $900 in charges. I eventually got a call stating that the SBC failed on the test drive AFTER repairs were done and I needed to have additional repairs done to replace the SBC at the cost of $1960 which they claim is being offered at a discount of $1100!!!
I pushed back, they had me call MB customer care to ask for an extension of the 10 year warranty. They denied.
After some review, I asked if the techs disabled the SBC unit before replacing the pads. I was told that they did not as it is only required for the tech safety and it is the ONLY reason to do so...it does nothing to protect the pump. Yes, I have that in a text from the dealership.
I have been told that if the pads are forced back into the caliper with SBC still enabled, it causes an issue with the accumulator that can cause the failure they are describing.
Does anyone have any support of this theory?
I offered to pay $700 towards the repair to get it resolved and avoid a drawn out fight but they aren't willing to make any adjustments. I escalated to the head of service and was told he was checking with MB and I should know more Monday.
I feel like I've been a victim, at best, of a dealership screwing up and expecting me to pay for it, or at worst, a dishonest attempt to blackmail me into paying more after other repairs were done. My thoughts are it was an honest mistake by their tech, but I don't think I should cover the entire costs.
Regardless, I have car stuck at the dealership pending resolution.
If anyone has any helpful suggestions to help with a reasonable resolution, I would appreciate the comments.
I'm even open to a correction of my idea that the failure to deactivate the SBC unit prior to pad install caused the failure.
I'm now dealing with the SBC issue on my 2005 E320 CDI with just under 160,000 miles. I had the visit workshop notice for brakes (white warning). I specifically took it to the local MB dealer and told them I was there versus an interdependent shop to make sure I did not have an issue with my SBC unit. I was pretty sure I just needed front brake pads and possibly new rotors.
I was told a thorough inspection would be done and they would get back to me. I then received a VERY detailed list of suggested work need and recommended. Everything from a windshield ding, to motor mounts (which curiously were recently replaced at an independent shop), to the actual rotors and pads needed on the front. NO recommendation or notes about SBC issues.
I ok'd the front brake service and another minor issue for just under $900 in charges. I eventually got a call stating that the SBC failed on the test drive AFTER repairs were done and I needed to have additional repairs done to replace the SBC at the cost of $1960 which they claim is being offered at a discount of $1100!!!
I pushed back, they had me call MB customer care to ask for an extension of the 10 year warranty. They denied.
After some review, I asked if the techs disabled the SBC unit before replacing the pads. I was told that they did not as it is only required for the tech safety and it is the ONLY reason to do so...it does nothing to protect the pump. Yes, I have that in a text from the dealership.
I have been told that if the pads are forced back into the caliper with SBC still enabled, it causes an issue with the accumulator that can cause the failure they are describing.
Does anyone have any support of this theory?
I offered to pay $700 towards the repair to get it resolved and avoid a drawn out fight but they aren't willing to make any adjustments. I escalated to the head of service and was told he was checking with MB and I should know more Monday.
I feel like I've been a victim, at best, of a dealership screwing up and expecting me to pay for it, or at worst, a dishonest attempt to blackmail me into paying more after other repairs were done. My thoughts are it was an honest mistake by their tech, but I don't think I should cover the entire costs.
Regardless, I have car stuck at the dealership pending resolution.
If anyone has any helpful suggestions to help with a reasonable resolution, I would appreciate the comments.
I'm even open to a correction of my idea that the failure to deactivate the SBC unit prior to pad install caused the failure.
$1960 is a pretty good price so you can be happy about that. $900 for front brakes and rotors is horrendous though I do mine myself so I'm not really current on what a dealer/indie charges. I always deactivated the SBC for safety reason. I also open the bleed valve to push the calipers back instead of forcing fluid back through the system. I though that the WIS said to do that and would think that the techs would follow that.
As such, I don't think the service caused the SBC failure. I think the SBS failed (probably the accumulator threw an error for failing to hold pressure) and that's why you got the white warning. I think (I could be wrong) you get a different message for pads/rotors (maybe it is a round circle with little dashes around it???). I think they did the walk around inspection of your car and when they saw the brake pad wear and rotor wear they said they needed to be replaced (as they said the motor mounts did). Usually they will put the actual measurements in the report. If those are not in there, then I'd be pretty suspicious that you got a brake job a few months before you needed it. I don't think they ran a SDS test and if they had, your estimate would have been higher. I think they finished the pad/rotor job and during the test drive they still got the white warning so they THEN they ran SDS and found an accumulator failure (leak). One could make the argument that if they'd done all of that first and you saw that you had many thousand of dollars in work, you might have foregone any of it and gotten a new car as you might be spending more money than the car is worth.
In summary, I think you got a brake job before you needed it. If you don't do these yourself or check the numbers, then you've really no way of knowing. You were going to need pads/rotors at some point and now you have them so that's not a terrible loss. The SBC system was going to fail at some point as well. You were going to have to pay for that at some point and $1960 is less than what I paid so that's not a bad deal. As such, I think the amount of money your spending is not excessive, it is just compressed in time.
If you could get them to come down in price a bit that would be a win in my book. If you don't have the time or resources to do the work yourself then choices are pretty limited. The cars are expensive to maintain, I've got FIVE of them and even doing the work myself it is expensive. I'm fortunate to have a nice shop and I've acquired the special tools and such over the years which wasn't cheap. The MB service center is there to make money not to save you money.
Last edited by RCPDesigns; 11-12-2017 at 10:15 AM.
Almost 2000 euros later it works. Dealer (DB) found a reason not to honor 15 years warranty. It is big money for an old car, but main problem is red warning and no brakes while driving. It comes without any previous warning. So have that in mind before you start worshiping your beloved car. Nice words for it won't change anything. All this will make me think twice before I buy another Mercedes.
When "S**t happens" occasionally - the odds are not that great and I hardly believe in coincidence.
What are the chances technician scanned the car for good SBC and 2 miles into test drive after pads replacement the unit failed? And what exactly failed?
The truth is that once you take car to a shop, you are at their mercy.
I just had another coincidence with my W212. It had MAF code, I replaced the sensor but on new car they require SCN coding, so had to take it to dealer for $150 coding.Technician called me that the plug had bad connection = BS.
Did not drive more than 50 miles after and Ox sensor code comes. That one at dealer was quoted $1100.
WHAT ARE THE ODDS???
When "S**t happens" occasionally - the odds are not that great and I hardly believe in coincidence.
What are the chances technician scanned the car for good SBC and 2 miles into test drive after pads replacement the unit failed? And what exactly failed?
The truth is that once you take car to a shop, you are at their mercy.
I just had another coincidence with my W212. It had MAF code, I replaced the sensor but on new car they require SCN coding, so had to take it to dealer$ for $150 coding.Technician called me that the plug had bad connection = BS.
Did not drive more than 50 miles after and Ox sensor code comes. That one at dealer was quoted $1100.
WHAT ARE THE ODDS???
I'm now dealing with the SBC issue on my 2005 E320 CDI with just under 160,000 miles. I had the visit workshop notice for brakes (white warning). I specifically took it to the local MB dealer and told them I was there versus an interdependent shop to make sure I did not have an issue with my SBC unit. I was pretty sure I just needed front brake pads and possibly new rotors.
I was told a thorough inspection would be done and they would get back to me. I then received a VERY detailed list of suggested work need and recommended. Everything from a windshield ding, to motor mounts (which curiously were recently replaced at an independent shop), to the actual rotors and pads needed on the front. NO recommendation or notes about SBC issues.
I ok'd the front brake service and another minor issue for just under $900 in charges. I eventually got a call stating that the SBC failed on the test drive AFTER repairs were done and I needed to have additional repairs done to replace the SBC at the cost of $1960 which they claim is being offered at a discount of $1100!!!
I pushed back, they had me call MB customer care to ask for an extension of the 10 year warranty. They denied.
After some review, I asked if the techs disabled the SBC unit before replacing the pads. I was told that they did not as it is only required for the tech safety and it is the ONLY reason to do so...it does nothing to protect the pump. Yes, I have that in a text from the dealership.
I have been told that if the pads are forced back into the caliper with SBC still enabled, it causes an issue with the accumulator that can cause the failure they are describing.
Does anyone have any support of this theory?
I offered to pay $700 towards the repair to get it resolved and avoid a drawn out fight but they aren't willing to make any adjustments. I escalated to the head of service and was told he was checking with MB and I should know more Monday.
I feel like I've been a victim, at best, of a dealership screwing up and expecting me to pay for it, or at worst, a dishonest attempt to blackmail me into paying more after other repairs were done. My thoughts are it was an honest mistake by their tech, but I don't think I should cover the entire costs.
Regardless, I have car stuck at the dealership pending resolution.
If anyone has any helpful suggestions to help with a reasonable resolution, I would appreciate the comments.
I'm even open to a correction of my idea that the failure to deactivate the SBC unit prior to pad install caused the failure.
I did my brake pads and rotors recently. The SBC automatically shuts off when the car goes to sleep. It is true that when you push back the brake pistons the car will throw an error code, but the pump quickly responds to optimize brake pressure once the SBC reactivates (ie, when you start up the car). The code will go away and brakes will be perfect, at least on my car. Hope this helps.
Update. They ended up covering all but $700 for the SBC replacement. I now have a two year warranty on it and I am OK with the results.
All in all, I'm not pleased that the repair was needed early (in my mind), but it may have been needed eventually anyway. At least this way, I have a two year warranty on the SBC now.
Than you all for the comments and observations. Moving forward, I'll tackle these items myself.
Thanks for the update always good to know how these things turn out. I think you've done very well in total money spent though, like you say, maybe not when you wanted or had to spend it. The good news is that the likelihood of it becoming a problem at just the wrong time is pretty much zero now.
I am the original owner and recalls associated with SBC have been performed at the dealer.
I understand that I purchased a car with SBC and maintaining this car includes the SBC pump
but Mercedes has to take responsibility for implementing such a device that if it were to fail the ability
to stop the car is in every practical sense is not suffice. I swerved on to a sidewalk while travelling 40mph
in order to not hit the car in front of me at the red light when my brakes quit and the car went into limp mode.
I had most of my weight on the brake pedal and I as others have stated can tell you by first hand experience
it really is something like less than 10% braking power you are left with. Also tge next time i turned the car on the
red message on the cluster cleared itself which is also something of note. Anyway if it hasnt happened already
someone will get hurt. As I understand it, the back up hydraulic brake system that the car uses when SBC fails
reduces braking to the front axel.I have since contacted the NHTSA as well.
I apologize for the following copy and paste being so long but I think it is relevant to the situation.
§393.48 Brakes to be operative
(a) General rule. Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, all brakes with which a motor vehicle is equipped must at all times be capable of operating.
(b) Devices to reduce or remove front-wheel braking effort. A commercial motor vehicle may be equipped with a device to reduce the front wheel braking effort (or in the case of a three-axle truck or truck tractor manufactured before March 1, 1975, a device to remove the front-wheel braking effort) if that device meets the applicable requirements of paragraphs (b)(1) and (2) of this section.
(1) Manually operated devices. Manually operated devices to reduce or remove front-wheel braking effort may only be used on buses, trucks, and truck tractors manufactured before March 1, 1975. Such devices must not be used unless the vehicle is being operated under adverse conditions such as wet, snowy, or icy roads.
(2) Automatic devices. Automatic devices must not reduce the front-wheel braking force by more than 50 percent of the braking force available when the automatic device is disconnected (regardless of whether or not an antilock system failure has occurred on any axle). The device must not be operable by the driver except upon application of the control that activates the braking system. The device must not be operable when the brake control application pressure exceeds 85 psig (for vehicles equipped with air brakes) or 85 percent of the maximum system pressure (for vehicles which are not equipped with air brakes).
(c) Exception. Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to—
(1) A towed vehicle with disabling damage as defined in §390.5;
(2) A vehicle which is towed in a driveaway-towaway operation and is included in the exemption to the requirement for brakes on all wheels, §393.42(b);
(3) Unladen converter dollies with a gross weight of 1,361 kg (3,000 lbs) or less, and manufactured prior to March 1, 1998;
(4) The steering axle of a three-axle dolly which is steered by a co-driver;
(5) Loaded house moving dollies, specialized trailers and dollies used to transport industrial furnaces, reactors, and similar motor vehicles provided the speed at which the combination of vehicles will be operated does not exceed 32 km/hour (20 mph) and brakes on the combination of vehicles are capable of stopping the combination within 12.2 meters (40 feet) from the speed at which the vehicle is being operated or 32 km/hour (20 mph), whichever is less.
(6) Raised lift axles. Brakes on lift axles need not be capable of being operated while the lift axle is raised. However, brakes on lift axles must be capable of being applied whenever the lift axle is lowered and the tires contact the roadway.
(d) Surge brakes. (1) Surge brakes are allowed on:
(i) Any trailer with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 12,000 pounds or less, when its GVWR does not exceed 1.75 times the GVWR of the towing vehicle; and
(ii) Any trailer with a GVWR greater than 12,000 pounds, but less than 20,001 pounds, when its GVWR does not exceed 1.25 times the GVWR of the towing vehicle.
(2) The gross vehicle weight (GVW) of a trailer equipped with surge brakes may be used instead of its GVWR to calculate compliance with the weight ratios specified in paragraph (d)(1) of this section when the trailer manufacturer's GVWR label is missing.
(3) The GVW of a trailer equipped with surge brakes must be used to calculate compliance with the weight ratios specified in paragraph (d)(1) of this section when the trailer's GVW exceeds its GVWR.
(4) The surge brakes must meet the requirements of §393.40.
[70 FR 48051, Aug. 15, 2005, as amended at 72 FR 9870, Mar. 6, 2007]
How house moving dollies are relevant to SBC in Mercedes?
I think efonz you should have your system scanned ASAP as not knowing what cost the failure means it can come back.
Brakes failures and people dying of that happens all the times, but I am trying to keep records about reported SBC failures and the above is about 18th reported on the forums over the years.
We can discuss if that is a lot or not, but I heard newer ABS pumps have "nice" failure ratio and they can cost more than SBC unit.
We had the white warning before Xmas 2017. Checked through the service centre (indi), and it appeared to be the end of life/ pedal application warning but everything, SBCH, SBCS ESP etc was working. Red warning came up in Jan 2018 and all still stopping. ESPok but the SBCS,SBCH not available. I think it is the accumulator as when I start cold in the AM it has gone to warning and turn off the engine. restart and brakes OK. No joy from the manufacturers and despite recalls in 2004 and 2005 here in OZ no notes in service book of any recall work. As the second owner we were advised that the MB stealership will replace the entire SBC unit for approx. $3500 plus labour. I contacted Robert Bosch Australia who designed and sold the units to MB. They have not had anything to do re recalls, replacements, or even any knowledge about the recalls in OZ. They could not help about the latest EHB replacements as the last unit they supplied in OZ was three years ago. In frustration I turned to Ebay and sourced a new EHB from Japan yesterday, for USD $1100 + freight. My service man is installing within the week. At least it will be new and if I get another 150000 miles I will be happy, unless I fall off the twig, and it will not matter then. Just for info MB Australia I am told do not want to know about the problem.
At least it will be new and if I get another 150000 miles I will be happy, unless I fall off the twig, and it will not matter then. Just for info MB Australia I am told do not want to know about the problem.
AGAIN it is not mileage, but pedal pushes that count.
When I had SBC, I adjusted my driving habits. Quite often on freeway off ramp, with some traffic I could push brake pedal 15-20 adjusting to guys in front of me.
With some thinking, I kept the distance slightly bigger and was modulating the pedal force instead on-off procedure. That made it 1 or 2 pushes.
Now I have ECO and have to work on new habits in traffic again.
04-05-2017, 06:17 PM
