ESIX3POWER

Most surprisingly i have been reading that the Benz is now the better balanced car..

http://www.racer.com/head-to-head-ne...icle/163623/2/

"First, it has better steering. BMW has moved to an all-electric system for the Five, and while that's doubtless good at lowering emissions and improving fuel economy, it comes with a slightly artificial feel that not even BMW can disguise. The Mercedes' steering feels smooth and almost liquid by comparison, free of friction and wonderfully linear and precise.
Secondly, and still more surprisingly, it's actually slightly better balanced than the BMW. The 5-series understeers a little, the Benz barely at all. It doesn't attack corners like the Five, but instead flows beautifully through them, proving once and for all that soft need not mean flabby any more than hard automatically equates to harsh.
"When all is added up, there may not be much between these two, yet they are gloriously different cars. And the truth is that the final determinant of which is best for any given customer won't be one car's clear superiority over the other, but which talent set is most appropriate to the buyer's desires and circumstances.
Still, we've come too far and driven for too long not to answer the question, and I'm going to give the nod to the Mercedes.
I'm not going to weigh up all the pros and cons of either competitor again, but instead leave you with the following thought. If these cars are all but inseparable on the road, what's left are the feelings they leave you with when parked outside your house. For while I might agonize over which one I'd prefer to drive on any given day, I'd find
it less of a struggle to decide which one to live with month by month. And it would be the Mercedes."

K-A

Did they just take the Autocar comparo?

Posted here:
https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...-w212-f10.html

aeggroup

I think, and even according to this article it's true, both are the best cars in the worlds in this class and each of them has their own pluses and minuses, but, as an E-Class owner, I was pleased to read this article.
At the end of the day - it does not mean anything. Each editor likes their own stuff. We will hear many more different opinions.

DCist

Took less than an hour for K-A to come out with an argument...

It is amazing how he wants W212 not to be as appreciated as other models/brands!

Face it pal...BMW 5er piglet got lazy.

Hooydonk's design is not relevant. It is boring to say the least. I know I know....you are going to start talking "great" lines and curves and hidden Fibonacci sequences. We get it...and we don't really care.

Even according to K-A, who recently said (I will not quote cause I don't want to dig around) something along the lines that if BMW lost its touch in the ride/streering department they would loose 5er's lead in the perception game. Well, it is happening. And even our architectural sage and prophet of eternal proportions - K-A - will not save them this time.

K-A

Meh, debating whether it's worth debating such a bratty and childish "but Mommy says my car is the bestest!!" argument.

I'll say this. BMW seem to be targeting the M-B audience with this one, particularly those like me, who, don't so much appreciate an on-topic/trendy mechanical looking, over-designed, perhaps not so gracefully aging, and awkwardly proportioned (which this Article also seems to think) car with a relatively hard and cold interior (expectations considering, and assuming the 5's interior materials are as refined/soft/luxurious as many are saying). The design is perfectly proportioned, and athletic/youthful, yet understated, which isn't a bad thing. Sure it isn't as challenging, angry faced, or busy as the E-Class, which makes the E more fun to look at, and try and figure out initially, so again, different strokes for different.... ya know.

The E60 was too crude and sporty driving for my liking, so maybe, if this F10 meets at the middle, it'll win me over in the driving dept as well. If the F10 indeed does not handle as well, or just slightly better than the E-Class, and doesn't have superior chassis dynamics, and has an interior worse than, or comparable to the W212, then yeah, they're in major trouble, even to someone like me, who appreciates the design more, and finds that it will stand the test of time, it wouldn't be enough for me to probably choose it over the E, especially considering the E will probably be even cheaper to buy.

I probably did say that line, and it's true. BMW will face lots of criticism if the driving dynamics don't squash the E, especially considering the design is already speaking in a subtle tone. However, BMW taking a page out of M-B's book, and adding a luxurious and serene element, is a VERY good thing, and will get new buyers on board, and steal some of M-B's faithful.

Now tell me, how what I'm saying isn't true, or a potentially accurate assumption.

Rowrbazzle

K-A

dude you are not bringing Arrested Development into this!! BEST SHOW EVER!!!!

Let's just talk about that instead....

220S

That's pretty much the bottom line: Choose what you like and not some magazine editor.

These were comparisons of the base version of both (350 and 530d) So, if you're thinking of those models, then make your own choice depending on what's the most important attribute for you.

But I have a feeling that no way in the world will BMW ever eliminate that "ultimate driving" feel and precise steering from the M5 or the 550i with the ZMP package. Plus with the choice of rowing your own gears instead of an autobox.

But what's all good is MB is still competing with the M5. That keeps both AMG and BMW on their toes in that segment. Once again, great for the consumer.

K-A

I don't understand the method behind BMW's madness in regards to going to full electric steering if it sacrifices driving feel and/or handling at all. You'd think the one automaker that wouldn't go that route, were it to truly be negative toward driving dynamics, would be BMW? Just kind of a head scratcher, in terms of whether people are kicking and screaming because it doesn't feel like the "old" BMW enough, however is still essentially superior, or if BMW just did something plainly stupid.

220S

Dan Neil's review: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...3053544.column

And the gist:

_____

"If owners should ever take the 5-series on the track, they'll find them benign, easy, capable, progressive and slightly boring. And numb as a well digger's . . . let's just say numb, OK? What with the electric power steering, the active this and that, the four-wheel thingy, the car has been sapped of anything approaching vividness and tactility.

If you want to fiddle at the margins with the car's ride and handling, you can, via the Driving Dynamics Control, a system that progressively dials up the adaptive suspension, transmission sharpness, rev limit, steering response and the thresholds of the stability control system.

The settings include Comfort, Normal, Sport and Sport+, the last of which finally puts some whalebone in the car's corset. It feels tighter and firmer, corners flatter -- of course, with an active anti-roll bar in the rear, it ought to -- and bites harder. But still, the steering feel is uncommunicative and artificial and just plain over-assisted.

Enthusiasts should definitely wait for the inevitable M5 performance version to arrive. Put some aero skirts on this thing, shoe it with racing rubber. There's definitely a fun car under all this technology.

Can't wait to drive that one."
_____

Like with MB and AMG, it appears there's going to be more of a distinction between comfort or sport: either buy a regular 5er or a M. For those who want softer, cushier rides and for those who want stronger chassis dynamics, there will be a choice in both brands now. No more floaty MB ride only or stiff BMW ride only.

But manufacturers are playing too much with trying to make one car act as several, imho. It's like driving a Swiss Army knife. I'd rather get two different cars with two distinctive chassis dynamics instead of a single compromise that works as neither.

gaazmon

companies should stick to what they are best at

K-A

Agreed ^^.

Seems the E and 5'er are getting closer to a "flip a coin and pick" situation. I liked when M-B did what they do 10x better than BMW, and vice versa.

It's basically like these cars are getting closer and closer to each other every gen, as M-B emphasizes handling, and BMW comfort.

rieger

I think BMW are starting to look at the demographics and that the average age of population is getting older. Also the Asians like a softer ride in the crowded cities in Asia. BMW is positioning themselves for these markets since they have the sporty image down pat and MB is making the cars sportier because they have the luxury image already down pat. Like K-A said the e-class and the 5er is becoming more and more alike.
I like the E-class frontal view better than the 5er bit the rest of the car the 5er seems more dynamic or European while the E-class seems to go towards the korean direction a little more with the rear quarter of the car and the lights. I think this design is a little more polarizing than the previous design for the E-class while the 5er the current design is more polarizing than the soon to be released new 5er. I think it will be interesting with the 2 new designs and in about a year or so Audi will come out with the new A6. May not be interesting to Americans but Audi does extremely well in the rest of the world.

K-A

Yeah, the "Euro" term is what I've been looking for. Frankly put, the 5'er looks Euro to me, while the E grabs from different influences.

Audi better come correct with the new A6, with BMW and M-B clawing for new demographics, it will be interesting to see what Audi's move is with the next gen. I'm hoping it will be a nice slap to both M-B and BMW, strong competition is always good.

ipp

The new A6 will most likely look _exactly_ like a A8; but 10-20% smaller.

Kamen

I had the opportunity to take the new 5 series Gran Turismo out for a spin on Saturday. I know it isn't the 5 series, but it will probably be similar and I love my MB but I have to say....it was the most comfortable mid sized sedan/crossover I have ever driven.

Grossly overpriced, looks weird, etc etc negatives galore but the interior...it's like a cloud with the lightning bolts of Zeus circling you.

I'm really looking forward to testing the new 5er when it comes out and comparing it to the E personally.

K-A

True that, I think that's pretty accurate judging by the A4 and A8.

Wow, really. Thanks for the info.

I'm happy to hear that BMW came through with the ultimate comfort, as they've been advertising this car as such. Man, it's too bad it looks SO damn bad. If the new 5 takes a page from its book, sounds like it will be good news to me as well.

DCist

Grand Turismo is based on the 7 series. It is and will be a more expensive option than a typical 5 series. And I am sure that interior detailing and seats will be about $20,000 apart.

I think MB is sort of behind the curve in this segment of the market - Weird Expensive Unnecessary Crossovers. Who knows? Maybe BMW will bank some points with Grand Turismo. Like they did with X6 ....NOT

K-A

I'll agree with you there, X6 and GT are gonna be huge fails. BMW has put themselves into a tough place, after all those dumb revolutionary designs, which got them Sales boosts, now where do they go? They go back to elegant Sedans, and now get criticized for not shocking everyone.... Or they think of these fugly inventions, like the mentioned.

Not like M-B didn't know this though, with their hideous R-Class.

Actually, the 5'ers interior is apparently extremely close to the 7 Series', criticize worthy in the case of the 7'er sharing much of its interior with a lower car, however very good for the 5'er, which is expected to have the best interior in its class this time around by some. Apparently the GT's interior will be extremely close to the 5's as well. We'll see.

Kamen

Why would the GT be based on the 7 series if it is called the 5 Series Gran Turismo? Isn't it based off the new F10 platform?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_5_Series_Gran_Turismo
"The F07 is a derivative of the F10 platform that will underpin the sixth-generation of the 5 Series. "

I am pretty sure it is based off the new F10, and the interior is strikingly similar from the seats to the layout to the black LED dash interface. If this is any indication of the new F10 interior then it is amazing IMHO. I still prefer some things laid out the MB way and over time the fascination would decline, but my initial impression was that it was fantastic.

Similarly with the exterior front half of the vehicle. I agree the stationwagon-like rear bump and dual bootlid system make it abit unsightly, but I agree with Fifth Gears net review of the car; it is spacious and extremely comfortable. I see this as being a much more useful crossover than the X6, albeit unecessary.

The sticker price on the 5 Series Gran Turismo I drove was $86k CAD. Should be not too far from a loaded 5 series + the new niche crossover ***hole tax .

ipp

It is based on the F01 7-series platform.

K-A

Random note. I've been seeing TONS of F01 7-Series lately. I hadn't seen about any before. Looks like the auto-sales slump from 2008-2009 (worst time in history perhaps to launch a car) took it's toll on the launch of it, but they're getting the proper road time now. I think it's a gorgeous car, so am happy to see it. If the 5'er doesn't show well, then looks like a Used F01 7-Series will be a nice buy.

gaazmon

+1. same thing i began to notice. maybe their rolling out some nice discounts since they have to prepare for 2011 MY

Kamen

Same here I've seen quite a few here in Richmond BC and they give off a nice road presence.

gaazmon

the back is a real turnoff. the mufflers coming out of the bumper look so cheap imo.