220S

I think if you want chassis softness and comfort as your number one priority, the MB still wins. Especially the E550 with its Airmatic. It's pretty much always been that way with BMW vs MB. But with the new Dynamic Handling Package, the BMW is pretty nice for having it both ways.

If pure chassis dynamics (in the performance sense) and more precise steering is your preference, then the BMW still wins.

As much as I like fast cars, I prefer handling over sheer speed. I actually enjoy driving my 993 slower than driving my E63 faster. But at the same time, the super stiff chassis of the P-car can only be put up with for so long (the newer 997.2 is more soft, of course.)

So again, for me I really appreciated the F10 chassis. I'm looking forward to picking up the M5 down the road.

As far as the plastic bits and pieces, they aren't dramatically different between the cars. The BMW still has those little rubberized knobs for certain functions (radio and climate control, etc..) but there are less buttons. Mainly because most things are done through iDrive.

I guess what I don't like about the W212 and what do like about the F10 is the "clutter" issue. To me, the W212 just seems too cluttered. And things look disjointed. With the F10 there's more flow and less clutter. Again, the "Scandinavian" look is all I can think of (think: Danish furniture.)

Maybe these two pics might help. In the W212, the console shape is unique, then the air control vents are unique, and then there's the cowl for the COMAND screen. Each is very different and for me it breaks any flow or continuity. Kind of a mishmash. There's just more "stuff" in the MB cockpit. The BMW is cleaner, imho.

With the F10 there is a more minimalist approach and things tend to connect (in shape) together. There is also a bit less chrome stuff. The W212 has that (to me) awkward chrome surround of the air vents smack in the middle of the dash. Plus the vents themselves are chrome painted.

Although I understand the practical reasons (space) I also don't like the shifter on the column. Also the gauges are much easier to read on the F10 and I think that comes from BMW's emphasis in the past on sport first. The conical surrounds of the W212 gauges are a bit too much for me. I like the simple four, round, all black face, gauges on the BMW better (reminds me of Porsche.)

The F10's body styling has more visual sculpting in certain colors than others and they don't seem as pronounced until you see it in person. But it is very subtle. I found the nose to be too flat (pedestrian safety rules) and the kidneys too big. Also I didn't like the line of the hood and the nose (it looks a bit odd for some reason; take a close look at it.)

The F10 is subtle like the latest Audi design. But it has much more presence than the Audi, imho. It's not nearly as boxy. It's also a much bigger looking car in person. That surprised me because in the pictures it looked like a 3 series. And with the M package it looks a lot different. The F10 will never be mistaken as a 3er on the road. They are very different in person.

Again, each to their own. Comfort and sedate goes to the MB, imho. Dynamic chassis and more tighter steering goes to the BMW.

K-A

Nice, thanks. So the M-Pack is already out??

They said it would take a year or so for it to be avail.

I'll have to check it out myself. The interior looks very cozy, much more-so than the 212's in pics. The 212's though, WITH the right color combo IMO, is a very "homely" and cozy "living space", which surprised me, so I'm wondering how the Bimmers will do in that aspect, considering it looks so damn plush and nice via pics. BMW's materials always put me off, and I always preferred M-B's, I'm wondering if the F10 can change that, or at least bring it closer, which the latter is a given, as I've heard this car is far more refined than the E60's.

220S

No, none of the cars here of course have the M package. I'm referring to it only from the Photoshop renders from the Euro spy pics. I hear that it won't be available until the M5 is ready for sale(?) So we'll be seeing it this autumn.

Again, K-A, I think you and I are coming from somewhat different positions. Although design and interior layout is very important to me, it seems paramount to you. For me, I'm far more concerned about driving dynamics (in the performance sense.)

If all I want is comfort and luxury only, the S Class would be the choice (over the 7er) for me. I still think of BMWs as true sports sedans and not luxury cars. Right or wrong, they've always been about the handling dynamics for me. Since I kind of like a larger car these days (been there, done that with the M3), the choice was the 5er. But the E60 sent me kind of scurrying away. Now (again, for me) the BMW is back as an option.

DerekACS

You offer many valid points about the respective strengths and weaknesses of the W212 and the F10. Having owned a number of MB and BMW models over the past 25+ years, I can find much on which to agree with you.

However, as for the styling of the latest models, I must say that the front end of the F10 is not very appealing to my eyes. The cut line across the hood is very disturbing along with the oversized kidney grills. The W212 front end is a much more successful design, especially when seen in lighter colors. So too is the side profile of the W212. In dark colors, the F10 with the Sport Package and black shadow line looks very drab and boring.

As for comparing the interiors, again, I prefer the W212 dash design to the F10. The latter design, especially when accompanied by a beige (or gray) interior, is simply dreadful. The beige A posts, beige carpets and beige lower dash, carpets and rear parcel shelf all contribute to a feeling of beige overload.

The two-toned interiors offered on the W212 are much more attractive !!

Getting back to your comments on the dynamic differences, yes I agree with you that if handling is the priority, BMW will most often deliver a superior package. But if comfort, ride, stability, practical engineering, highway tracking and rock-solid build quality are your objectives, then MB usually offers a better solution.

With the latest mid-sized models from these two renowned manufacturers, how fascinating to see that MB and BMW have switched roles: the former was known for a conservative approach to styling (W211) and the latter for its avant guard E60. Now the W212 is the more aggressive and dynamic looking car, while the F10 has reverted to a very conservative sedan, perhaps a 3 Series on steroids.
Unfortunately, the F10 lacks the near perfect proportions and athletic shape of the 3 Series.

220S

That's interesting (see what I highlighted in bold.) Maybe you missed what I said in my post you just quoted, but it's exactly my feelings, too:That cut line at the hood is definitely odd. And we pretty much have to wait (at least I do) to see how that 'sedateness' might change with the M package, and what the M5 itself will end up looking like. I hate to admit it but some of the design cues that were on the E60 perhaps should have been carried over a little bit(?)

I will say that the F10 dash seemed a bit high when I drove it. It felt higher up than the W212(?) As far as the interior color schemes I think I understand what you are saying. Although I personally like only black in a performance car and that's it. While my E63 has a black interior, it does have the dark gray Alcantara headliner and A posts. That gives it some contrast. Again, we'll have to see what the M5 offers.

Personally, as far as both car exteriors designs are concerned, I'm not 100% with either one. For me, one looks 'Japanese' and common, the other looks 'safeguarded' and common.

And as far as "rock-solid build quality" is concerned I'm not sure that can be as readily applied to MB these days(?) At least not like it was in the W123 and W124 era. But I was concerned with the abysmal safety ratings that the E60 has which also put me off a bit from that version.

Again, for me the whole thing boils down to driving dynamics. And I much prefer the stiffer side of things overall. And especially steering feedback. For me, with the Dynamic Handling Package, they've allowed for a proper and smoother ride adjustment without losing that long standing BMW characteristic.

But it's always a compromise. I like the ride of my E63 when I do long trips. The E63 is definitely a great choice for long distance autobahn style cruising. And I like the ride of my 993 when I really want to drive just for the sake of driving on the twisty back roads. I'm thinking (hoping?) maybe the F10 is both rolled into one. Or maybe not.

In the end, I guess that's why I have both those cars. Unfortunately there's never really the perfect solution with just one car.

K-A

Yeah, this is true. I did get the Performance itch when I drove the 55 AMG cars, yet, my priorities aren't really there.... Basically, when my budget gets high enough, I'll be able to afford all that my priorities require, AND get that beastly performance aspect.

I agree about the Bimmers shutline, and flat front end, that alone has really gave me reservations toward the car. In the pictures of the F10 next to the W212, showing the fronts, the F10 just was lacking IMO.

It's funny, a friend of mine checked out my E tonight. He was taken back by, and really loved everything about it, and commented on how aggressive it looked. He said he's never seen a Benz with such aggressive body-work, stating "the lines are so sharp and aggressive, it's like they kind of went for that Lexus look and out-did them".... He said this with no intentions of it coming across as negatively, lol.

ash_cpe

+1 K-A, I test-drove F10 last week for my wife and I parked it beside my W212 and everyone in dealership came to compare both cars, everyone I talked to agreed that W212 is far more better looking, even the salesman who helped me there agreed on that. I thought the F10 has a better looking behind in pictures but that's not in person, W212 looked sharper and fancier from all angles and the F10 looked more athletic with no style IMO. The only thing I liked inside the F10 was the Center Console and that's it. When I drove it the steering was awesome but it was too thin for my hands, ride was better than the E60 but not the W212, it's faster and no turbo lags what so ever, but TTs are not there yet in terms of heat dissipation and reliability for everyday use, so having a Naturally-aspirated engine for now is better IMHO. I just didn't like about driving it is the transmission, it was jerky may be it didn't adapt to my driving style yet.

220S

Yeah, I hear you. Performance is key for me. Once I'm behind the wheel it's all that matters. I'll forgive design flaws for the driving dynamics. And I mean spirited engaged driving, not driving dynamics in the sense of comfort. (I'll get up at 5 am on Sunday mornings just to drive hard on the back roads when they're empty.)

e.g., I think the Exige is a funky looking little car but what a go-kart! Same with the Caterham (i.e., Lotus 7.) A friend of mine has one and we went out in my 993 and his Lotus and it was a great run. After driving it, I'll forgive its looks.

Anyway, what's interesting is how one promotes the car they currently own. I think I can probably look at the F10/W212 comparison with a lot less bias since I don't own either (and may never.) It's human nature to want to say only good things about what one owns because it's partly a reflection of themselves. Nobody wants to admit what they bought has faults since that means they had faulty decision-making. e.g., your complete turn-around from just a few months ago with the W212. The car hasn't changed since you first saw it, and yet you now are making comments like the one above.

I guess the bottom line is always be true to yourself and screw what anybody else thinks.

K-A

Sweet, good to know. History will simply rewrite itself, the 5 and E will garner split decisions around the world. I think the E certainly is the talked about one this time around, and has the "ooh" factor, like the E60 did last time around, I just hope that "ooh" doesn't translate to "ahh!" once the cars start getting more common and have been around for years, as what the F10 has going for it is concentration on timeless styling (I think, I gotta see it in person), which will also translate to a more luke-warm initial response of course.

Interesting about the rears, yeah, via pics I like the F10's a lot more so far, we'll see how it looks in person. My 2 issue's with the F10 so far have been, possible "bloated" BMW shaping (although better than previous Bangle Designs), which the E always looked crisper and leaner (true to historical M-B styling ideals, thank goodness) (and I acknowledged that long ago), and the 5's front end isn't very hot, which might be fixed by the M-Pack.

Exactly, as they're not the ones living in your shoes. That's why I ended up just going with the 212, I drove so many cars, and although it was my most expensive option in a way (was the only New Car I was looking at), I couldn't help but feel like it was just right for me, and felt like the one that would be the most proper extension, which was tough despite how staunchly I saw it on "paper", i.e all my (valid) and studied flaws.

The F10 is definitely a design that I agree with more than the W212 in an initial and historical sense (cleaner, cohesive, etc.), but I know, even when I was praising the F10, that I would probably end up in the Merc, were the situation to arise (also this was due to the M-Pack being unavail for a while, etc.).

My main worry with the 212 is how it'll age on me, which is why a Lease is great, but even for a few years. I'm not used to jumping on board really "stylized" cars, so it'll be interesting to see how this car fares with me in time. Naturally now that I have one, the car has (thankfully) won me over, in terms of my happiness in it. However, if we get into any intricate design convo's, don't think I've forgotten what I said before. The question is, will I just conform to it, and start to look for over "stylization" in cars in the future? That'll be quite an interesting twist.

What's funny, is my natural tendencies toward this car are to just keep it CLEAN looking. Uniformed black windows, no red on the taillights (when they're not engaged), no orange amber markers, no writing on the boot or even license plate frame, no cluttered double Fogs, etc.

That's simply me attempting to draw a medium with all the business M-B has given to you in this car stock. So far I'm really loving the car, as shameful as I am to admit this, given my history, I just can't help but once again speak honestly in the moment!

What's cool is, the car is so monochromatic between Black, White, and Chrome, it's like some pictures I feel like they're done in actual "black and white". I dig the theme, and I think it kind of fits the "Future-Retro" look of the W212.

Wig

As a leased vehicle, I assume you have to 'undo' your mods when you return it to MB. It is certainly the case in Canada that a lease has to go back in original spec.

K-A

It's not really a problem, I make sure to "" "Mods", as to them just being cheap Tint like stuff. I'm not putting on wheels or anything (I like the stockers fortunately anyway). The Lip I'll probably convince myself out of.

mm9351

Hey K-A, just wanted to say congrats on your new ride! The W212 in white is awesome, I see more and more in this color around here in the Northeast. As I've come to appreciate, this car is a stand-out will grow on you more and more each day.

To redefine what MB has done with the new E-class, consider this: when I drive this car to work and park around the new BMWs and Audi's, mine gets the most attention! That about says it all!

Best of luck with your new Benz...

K-A

Thanks man!

Yeah, White is definitely "the" color for it IMO. Yeah, the car definitely draws some attention, it surprised me as I wouldn't have thought so before I got one, but I guess I had looked at and studied the car so much, I got more used to it. Most people who I know who see it, don't recall seeing "the New E-Class" at all up until then. Also, lots of people stare at the front LED's, it's kind of funny, lol.

Today while going to look at an F10, due to the STUPID BMW Dealerships lack of seemingly ANY designated Customer Parking, I parked on the street, and while trying to hug the curb to avoid getting my new ride side-swiped on such a narrow street, I SCRAAAAAAAPE a nice set of rashes on my wheels. I'm SO F'ING PISSED!!

As I looked at my wheels, right across from the giant Bimmer Dealerships glass door entrance, with Salesman foaming at the mouth at the New E Owner about to be "wowed" by the new F10, I walked back to my door, got in my car, and bolted as fast as the little V6 could get me.

I tend to have an immature temper when it comes to these things, so officially, my stance on the F10 and BMW is that they can suck on my Hood Star Ornament. F*** YOU BMW AND F10!!!!

220S

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1799630,00.html

I'm sure they're in the phone book. Or call directory assistance. I'm guessing they'll pay to fix your curb rash.

K-A

Thanks for the Link! I'm gonna track those richies down and get them to pay for my curb rash! They're lucky I'm not requiring them to buy a whole new wheel!

The saga continues anyway:

Today I was driving my trusty Chevy and happened to be in the area again, so I said, F it, I'm going back.

I walk in, NO Salesman help me (they were not busy), one even looks at me, then looks back down quickly, I had to walk up to some guy, and ask where the new 5'ers are, and he carelessly states "in the back" and said which were back there. Didn't care to get up and show me it. That's fine, as I don't like Salesman breathing down my neck, but the gesture would have been nice, and I would have like to drive it.

I guess I'm not your typical "Douche-Bag" BMW looker (even the Salesman all looked like greased up D-B's), I have an "Alternative" type of look, sure, i was dressed down, sure, but they should know, some of the most powerful people don't take the time to "portray" it, they leave that to those who try and be them.

So I look at the F10, and some nice "Prep" or whatever guy tells me he's getting a Salesman, I say "don't bother", to save from more hilarious embarrassment. He says a lady is coming out soon. She comes, talks to him, I hear him tell her "he's in that car", and she seems to go back inside after more talking.

I'm a child when it comes to these things. So thanks BMW, it was fun liking you for a minute, but I'm done, and I've never been happier to own an M-B, at least THEY APPRECIATE MY BUSINESS!!!!

Oh, and the F10 was interestingly unremarkable upon first glance. It was dirty, and an ugly color to be fair. The sheetmetal was a nice mix of smooth and lean shaping, yet also had that classic BMW bloated roundness about areas, and some sharp elements that either contrasted the round elements positively or negatively, I can't tell yet.

I couldn't get a great view of the rear (it was parked against a wall), it seemed okay, yet potentially a bit bulbous and portly.

The interior was okay, huge improvement, but actually to me it was a lot more cluttered than the 212's? It kind of gives a more cozy vibe, and more "available", but not as clean or sharp IMO. Definitely much more driver oriented, as the Benz feels more kind of "modern-minimalist"-ish, not as much as the S-Class (minimalist) of course. The Benz also feels more open up front, airy, etc. I think. Materials are good, I'd say about on par with the E's as well, some areas are a bit better, some not so. The benzes feels a bit more sturdy I think, and I guess I'm just used to some of the carry-over Benz materials, so they feel more "for me" than some of the Bimmers. I'd say the interior comes down to total preference so far. Oh, and I hate BMW's Vinyl, M-B's is much more "luxurious" IMO.

I still gotta drive the F10, if I care to be humiliated by another BMW Dealership who doesn't want my business.

OH! And the front end is HORRIBLE, so flat and bland? BMW must have been able to work with the EU Regs better than that? It looks like it got flattened by a hit to a wall or something. The headlights are nice, and are of a nice shape, but the rest of it just is lacking. I think the E's face is faaaar more interesting, whether you like it or not (still polarizing), aside from making a bolder statement (something many people mistake for being "nicer", i.e not everything needs to be bold and/or aggressive), but it's just chiseled better, shaped more interestingly, and just seems to have a lot more attention there.

220S

fwiw, I had the worst experience in my life at a Mercedes Benz dealership. But I bought a car from them because in the end I wanted a car they had on their lot.

I had the greatest experience in my life at a Porsche dealership. But I didn't buy a car from them because in the end I didn't want any car they had on their lot.

All that really matters to me is "here's the money, now give me the car."

I enjoy my current car but it's certainly not ideal. I occasionally think about what might be next. I have no brand loyalty. No manufacturer and no product is without its faults. But I suppose if I tell myself I own the best thing on wheels and everything else out there su*cks, then I'll feel better. Funny how the human mind works.

Anyway, they're nothing but material objects and our wants and desires will change overnight. In the meantime they exist to give us some pleasure. But we'd probably do best not identify ourselves with something so truly inanimate.

K-A

True. I was just peeved. I have a lot of humility, so it's not like I let it eat me up, but I wanted to vent.... So I wrote a "strongly worded letter" to the Dealer, and received a call almost immediately . They asked if I can come back to check the car out.... Meh.

Yeah, if they have the car you want, then you gotta give the a$$holes your money. If you have choices, I'd rather go elsewhere.... But money talks, so the best deal is gonna be my best friend.

I don't have brand loyalty either, but I naturally do have the brands that hold a higher cache to me, or that feel more "me", etc. But indeed, perceptions toward material items change instantly, all we can do is enjoy what we enjoy, and hate what we hate, and see if those lines get blurred at any time across the way. If you do convince yourself that you own the best thing on wheels, it does help out. As they say, "ignorance is bliss".

220S

Just curious, which dealer was it? Santa Monica is one of the worst and I'm not the only one who thinks so, it's pretty well documented.

A good franchise is South Bay, imho. There's a guy there named Robert Dixon who also runs driving clinics up at Willow Springs and is a BMWCCA instructor. Great salesperson and really knows cars. Not certain if he's still there(?) http://bimmerdriven.blogspot.com/200...-founding.html

Here's a customer's review: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160702

He tried to sell me a M5 before I bought my E63.....

But don't go hating on the product just 'cause the salesperson is lame.

K-A

It was BMW of B.H, just horrible all around. Don't think I'll go there again to check out the F10 more closely. I find it always helps to call first and get a guys name, and set an "Appointment". I'll probably do that as well.

220S

+1 on the appointment part. I always do that. You don't waste anybody's time including your own.

I gave a nice gift certificate a while back to a Porsche sales guy (I used to get them as freebies from my work.) He would call me up anytime they had something really interesting on the lot and set me up with a test drive

K-A

Yeah. This is why I was so happy to honor my Salesman with the Sale recently, he was just making the whole process very easy, and was seemingly very honest in his opinions of the cars (didn't even love everything about the 212, and he owns an early 211 as well).

AsianML

K-A, LOL. I totally saw this coming.

K-A

LOL.

BTW, yesterday I was driving, and saw an epic W221 in Diamond White, MAN that color really picks up when in direct sunlight.

Started getting that funky feeling of "did I make the right choice"? Also, the F10 has been on my conscious for a bit.

All in all, still so far so good. on that same drive, and hear a "HONK HONK" next to me, quickly glance to my left, and some guy in an old body Lexus SC Coupe is very excitedly giving me thumbs ups (my windows were up and they're dark, so he probably couldn't see me I assume), and then sped ahead.

Been a long time since I've gotten that kind of reaction regarding my car, I mean, no matter how nice the car, that's usually reserved for exotics and/or just launched popular cars.

I was like WTF? Lol, but hey, pretty cool, I'll take it.

K-A

A couple new ones of the ride. Before I washed it (dunno why I took dirty pics, but it still shines pretty bright! ).

K-A

Aright, just want to post these as well here, as I think they show the car in some decent lighting. To note, car hasn't been washed in a couple weeks here, and is still awaiting its first Wax. I'm happy to see how well White holds up!