ddeliber

Your point about not making sense for MB to charge less is absolutely correct. If the consumers are willing to pay it (which is obviously the case because they continue to do it) they would be stupid no to charge them. I am just saying that we, the consumers, are to blame for continuing to pay it (me included, but because I just didn't have all the facts when I bought the pre-paid plan).

I don't look at it from the perspective of other people are paying this much so it looks like a deal. I like to ask what am I getting for my money and 300 bucks is too much for a certain service because I can get it or maybe something better for about $100. If its a $50 difference or so sure, no big deal I'll pay for the convenience or the other points mentioned earlier. Now when you think about $300 it isn't that big a deal, but it is the principle behind it, if they are doing if for maintenance what about everything else? Plus it multiplies quickly - like the $900 or whatever for the 40k svc.

I know its not a great analogy but it might help so I'll go back to the pizzas. Most pizzas cost about $15. A super duper awesome (top of the line luxury) pizza maybe 20-25? they are marking theirs up 300% to $60! Who the hell pays $60 for a pizza. I'm happy to pay the 25 (maybe even a little more) cause I want the super duper, but I'd sure feel stupid to pay $60 and I won't do it. I don't think anyone would (unless the act of paying $60 is the appeal of course). They already admitted that it is worth it to them to sell the pizza for $20 ($89 for the oil change), but to put it in their fancy box it will cost $60 ($300 for A svc). I like the fancy boxes too but not for that price.

alsyli

But your line of thinking presupposes that there's a $25 pizza available. And, in this case, there isn't. You can use an independent service station (which presumably would be as close to a $25 pizza as you can get), but there's no other alternative, if you want to stick w/ the dealer....

ddeliber

I disagree with the "and in this case there isn't" statement. Sure there is a moderate amount of risk if you don't know of or haven't gotten a recommendation for a good indy. But I would also argue that there is a similar amount of risk at the dealership. Believe me, they got the young kids back there doing the maintenance, and they have got the cars lined up, doing many at a time.

There are plenty of $25 pizzas out there, at least for me (I live in the Boston area), plus I know a great place so I guess my risk level is a bit low. However, we are talking about routine maintenance here. No special technical wizardry required. Stuff that tons of guys on this forum are doing in their driveways.

I understand what the dealerships provide, in fact I thought that I was getting a $25 pizza from them when I bought the pre-paid maintenance. I just came to find out that I actually bought a $60 dollar one marked down to something like $35-$40.

JALLEN4

First of all, buying a pizza of any price and servicing a vehicle are totally unrelated. A frivolous analogy at best.

When purchased at delivery, you can buy the first three services for somewhere around $750. If leasing, the option of choice on more than fifty percent of Mercedes purchases, it will be residualized and net cost is less than half that amount.

How in fact does the average owner judge the competency of an independent? Few will know how to inquire about training, time of service, recent training on newer product, customer satisfaction ratings, special tool availability, and overall competency of the people working on your vehicle. Most often that judgment is dependent on how big a smile they received at write-up and the total of the final bill. Everyone seems to always have the best Doctor, the best Attorney, and the best repairman. All of which cannot be right by definition.

When you service your vehicle at the dealership, you are generally always given substitute transportation. You know that the warranty terms have been met and are intact. You know in fact the technicians working on your vehicle have met the current standards of Mercedes. You also know that if problems arise in the future, the records are indisputable of timely and proper servicing having taken place.

When you purchase the "Best or Nothing", it does make some sense to extend this to maintaining your investment.

ddeliber

I agree that the pizzas are not the best analogy, but in this case the intent was to demonstrate what a 300% markup - on something that is already marked up - looks like. When dealing with a large investment like a true luxury automobile, it is easy to miss stuff like this. Hence the just bought a $60 pizza analogy.

Understood, but this just means that you can get something that is marked up 300% for 30% off and they are holding your money. They are saying it is a 30% discount from pay as you go so that translates to about $1,070 for the services if you bought them as you went.

The plan I bought was a bit more because it is a CPO (25k mi) and they will be doing the 40k, an A and a B services instead of just an A a B and another A.

Agreed. This is the risk, but I still argue that a similar risk still exists at the dealer (kids doin the maintenance work, bunch of cars lined up). The info is out there on the independents, it will take a little looking, things like this forum and yelp can help. Also, this is routine maintenance, not real repairs.

I did a quick search in the Boston area (5 minutes, it was the first link I clicked) and I found this:
http://www.foreignmotorworks.com/Mer...ce-Coupons.htm

I'd say the risk at getting maintenance work done there is pretty darn low. Look at the other tabs (dealer alternative, about, car tips etc), what they do, the parts they use is all clearly described.

My point here is not to go to this place or that, it is just that the markup at the dealers is unacceptable to me. It is also not just me, there is a significant industry of indy's out there.

Loaners are a big value add, as well as the service records, resale confidence, peace of mind etc. Here the Independents keep professional records too. MB will not give you warranty hassle if you show them these records (I'm not talking Jiffy lube). How much is a loaner worth to you? enterprise rents similar MBs to what you'd get from a dealer that don't need to be scheduled a week or 2 in advance for what $40.

Yes, I am all for the best and I will continue to maintain my investment with a quality independent. I am not looking for a $15 pizza I am happy to spend $25 just not $60.

El Cid

I took a Ford pick-up (number one selling vehicle in America) to independent that was highly rated by several people whose judgement I trust. Major screw ups and he denied responsibility for all of it. Had to take it to Ford dealer to get it repaired.
Will never use an independent again. Would be very suspicious of even the independents specializing in MB, German, etc. cars.
With the dealer, you have a service manager, a sales manager, a general manager and maybe even the owner for complaints. Then you can go to MB customer service.
This doesn't even consider that dealer has the latest MB technology and connections to MB and DAG for updates, TSB's, recalls, etc.
One way I look at is that using dealership is same as having insurance on the car.
You can purchase the pre-paid maintenance anytime before the "A" or first service. I did and very happy with it.

ddeliber

For maintenance? Sounds like a raw deal regardless. I sure hope you reamed them in a write up or two. Probably got some legal recourse as well.

ddeliber

One other point. I took one of my cars, an Infiniti to the dealer and asked what's wrong. They told me the alternator that's all. I told them t o fix it. Long story short, a week later the belt on it blew right thru the radiator. They wouldn't cover the repairs. I had it towed to another dealer Eff them. After that I found a good indy.

This kind of risk is present wherever u go. Less at some places sure, but still. Hell I know a guy that took his new WRX to the dealer and they forgot to put the oil in it!

Almost everyone has a story like this. I love to hear them either way, but I am still at the same place on these $300 $500 and $900 fluid replacement charges.

ImInPA

I take an E with cheese, small fry, and a coke.

ddeliber

lol, For 60 bucks it should come with truffles and caviar!

ttoE550

I took my Porsche to a dealer and the mechanic cross-threaded the oil filter. Got off work to find a huge oil slick behind my car.

Traded in the Porsche for a WRX. Took that to the dealer, and the mechanic (he later admitted) took a phone call in the middle of putting the plug back in the oil pan. Needless to say, he forgot to finish after the call. Came out of a store to find another huge oil slick behind my car.

It is sick feeling seeing all that oil and realizing immediately that it's yours.

ddeliber

Twice! All I can say is OUCH!

"It is sick feeling seeing all that oil and realizing immediately that it's yours."

gotta remember that one :-)

ddeliber

An interesting update on this thread.

I was out picking up a headlight bulb for my wife's Volvo - I went aftermarket on this purchase, please don't crucify me for this.... Well, the guy (I mean kid) at the counter and I started talking about some stuff and it turns out that he is a service technician at one of our local MB dealerships - second job at the auto parts place. Seriously,,, I am not making this up, amazing timing considering this thread.

I'm looking at the windshield fluid and I ask him about the rain X, any good, probably not for the MB though right?
Him: why not? The rainX is really good stuff, not as good as the spray but you use more of it with the washers.
Me: Isn't there an issue with the alcohol - bad for the wipers?
Him: I haven't heard that, we use similar stuff, its just a different color.

So of course because it is fresh in my mind I ask him if he does the maintenance work to which he replied yes, that is mostly what he does.

From this I ask about the A service, what do they do and how much do they charge for it? He told me it consists of an oil change and a bunch of checks, fluid top off and they are getting about $250 for it. So I said isn't that a little steep for an oil change? He said yea, but if you ask you can get the oil change separate for $89. Then he said that they'll do the checks and the top off any way. I then asked what about the maintenance light and he told me that they will also reset that and he went on about the other dealer in the area (the place I bought my car) won't reset the light (little sales from him, pretty good for a kid his age). I then asked about what goes in the VMI and he told me they put it in for Service A.

So here we go... straight from an MB dealer tech... Service A for $89, at the dealer. That's a $20 pizza that I was willing to pay $25 for <- sorry couldn't resist.

Next I get into service B, whats different from the A, how much etc... He said they are getting around $500-$550 for it and he started talking up the differences a bit.... After a few, he tells me that the bottom line is service B = Service A + brake fluid flush, suspension and CB (whatever that is) checks both visual and checking the tire pressure in the spare.

Me: huh, isn't that a little high?
him: yep. Not sure why the price is set that high it takes him about 30 min longer to do the B cause he can drain both the oil and the brake fluid at the same time while he is doing the checks.

-aside- I am a bit pissed at myself now because I didn't ask him what they charge for just the brake flush...

Me: so you must be getting pretty good at this huh. How many can you do in a day?
... another customer steps up to the desk :-(
Him: Yea, I can do a few at a time but the work is really top quality. You should check us out.
Me: yea I think I will, I got talked in to the pre-paid maintenance so it won't be charged right.
him: well that only covers required maintenance, nothing recommended is covered.
Me: thanks, I'll probably see you in about a year, if nothing goes wrong.

I would have chatted him up for an hour if that guy hadn't walked in. Great info!

Bottom line:
-Kids doin it and they line em up.
-Service A, at the dealer, <$100 but they will gladly take $250ish for it and usually do.
-Service B pretty much a service A with a brake flush. There is value to the additional suspension visual checks but I will let you decide how much that is worth to you.

At least I confirmed pretty much what I thought. I think I may need some more washer fluid, maybe I'll go back there in a couple weeks on a Monday night. I might just as a few more questions...

Anyone else got any questions for him?

theraven333

An interesting story, always adds to our understanding! One point about young guys working on my car or any car for that matter !! I was young once and an apprentice and learn't my profession by doing menial tasks under supervision, everyone has to start somewhere, okay I suppose the next argument would be we are paying tech rates not apprentices the argument can go on and on !!! There is a balance in everything !!!
As I mentioned previously I think every country is different, in some parts of the States your labour rates seem very low, clearly in others quite high. Here in the UK labour rates are very high, with it being 30% cheaper at an independent garage (Mercedes/ BMW et al set the bench mark and the independents work from that)
For my part I mentioned I have bought a maintenance package for 4 years. Whilst I am quite capable of doing 90% of my own maintenance, I can buy all of the best oils Mobil 1 etc and most parts at a good price so can keep the cost down to a much lower level, and my labour is free!!!! hmm on this one but still !!
I calculated the convenience to me, plus some of the longer term items, transmission fluids, brake fluid, etc cost time and in the case of transmission fluid is very expensive and an pig to do ( there is a technique to doing it especially on an automatic with Torque converter ), the package includes all consumables including wiper blades, pollen filters etc etc, plus the labour rate is fixed for 4 years. They also include accident/breakdown coverage Europe wide plus a few other items I cannot really think of at the moment (don't want to bore you guys either).
I know the reason why Mercedes sell these packages as they do, I have no issue with someone making a profit and playing my small part in keeping someone in work, I agree that I certainly hate to be shafted to the point of having no alternative, but on balance find this fair !!! Clearly if it all goes pear shaped I will change my mind, but being an optimist one can only go forward !!
So lets get to the Pizza, personally I will pay any price for a Pizza so long as it is MY choice, if I paid $60 I would expect it to be the best Pizza ever, BUT if it tasted like crap I would never use them again ever and tell everyone I know the same and put it down to an experience. NOW if I found a $10 pizza and it tasted divine I would go back and back again provided it remained the same, I would tell everyone how good it was !! They then being so successful would then say we can sell these pizza at $30 dollars and make more profit because people love them, BUT the in their desire for more profit the standards drop and they start to taste not as good so I don't buy them and tell everyone my new experience....it's called capitalism and we all live by it's mantra!!!! lol

ImInPA

So far, during my first 43K mi., all of my services combined have been less expensive than the pre-paid plan I could have purchased. All of my services have been done at the dealership where I boughtthe car.

ddeliber

Just to follow up, I am all for capitalism, it is why people can afford nice cars. But it only works if people are willing to pay the price. My point here is I don't understand why people are paying it. If they (we) don't, they'll change the prices or go out of business. Even if I had Bill Gates or Warren Buffet types of money, I wouldn't do it. Its a small amount of effort to ask how much does it cost, and say that's ridiculous, no, I'll go somewhere else.

raven, for the stuff we are talking about I am saying that the MB $60 pizza tastes the same as a good Indy's $20 - $25 pizza, it just comes in a nicer box. I'd buy a $60 pizza too if it was 300% better - add the truffles and caviar or whatever!

theraven333

Two of the best pizza I have ever eaten just happen to have been on separate business trips, would you believe one in Boston and the other in Toronto (at a place I think was called the Organ Grinder) lol Plus one of the worst meals was in Boston in one of the oldest Oyster Bars

golfster

My LBS includes the 1st service free as well as free loaners when you purchase the car from them. Other services (B, etc.) seem to be priced on par with other dealers in the area. Services for MB are considerably less than my other makes.

Now back to the pizza!

ddeliber

Pardon my ignorance, but what's a LBS? Local Benz shop?

golfster

yes

RLE

Of course it won't effect the warranty. Why people post this crap is beyond me. Federal law is clear about this. All you have to do is keep records on oil changes and such and your warranty is unaffected.

rufmb

For me, dealer thru warranty period and independent shop after that. It is an expensive car and the $2-500 is comparatively a non-issue. This especially if the work is scheduled and overall handled professionally - work completed as planned, car washed, clean on the inside etc and I get everything completed on the same trip. I've previously got good free loaners from Audi. Will see how the MB dealerships work out.

I will go from time to time back to the dealer past warranty for some specific items and recalls, but after warranty Indy for most items and some DIY is my comfort level. Indy shops can't always compare with dealers, but I've saved money overall with them and for the odd screw-up I don't give them a tough time. e.g. driving off after picking up my Audi for some boots work, the front end started to squeal, happily paid the guy $500 for a bearing replacement and some misc stuff, although it was him who had just worked on the front end. Didn't want to jeopardize the relationship with the guy who'd fixed my car for 6 years. My new Benz will go to him in 4 yrs.

Also, I won't spend > $18 on pizza. Just wanted to share this little tidbit.

El Cid

The Operators Manuals state several times that warranty could be invalidated if service not done to MB standards. Why would they state it in black and white if they weren't going to go by it? They put it in there for a reason.
Yes, you can do the work yourself or have an independent do it and your warranty is still in effect. I have done it myself with cars that were under warranty.
However, just be aware that if you do it yourself or use an independent, you are giving MB (or any make) an opportunity to say it was not done correctly or any damage or malfunction was caused by someone else.
Then you have an argument on your hands. You may win and most dealers will work with you to earn your future business.
Personally I prefer to use the dealer so there is absolutely no question about what was done and how and to MB standards. They also have access to MB website for recalls, TSB's, campaigns, etc. Consider as insurance.
Another advantage to use dealer is that if not satisfied, you have the dealer personnel and MB for complaints.
It's your choice, just be informed.
BTW, I have no connection to any aspect of the automotive industry.
Happy Motoring

ddeliber

They say that so that it gets done, they can't deny warranty claims if you have the records which are very easy to get. There are laws on this stuff. Even small indies these days have computers so if you lose your receipts a phone call is all you need. For DIY keep receipts.

I understand your point about not wanting an argument on warranty claims. However, it is 2013 and the dealer would be asking for trouble by denying claims when people have the records to back things up. If dealers want the business they should be competitive or at least charge their own published rates for labor on maintenance.

El Cid

Bottom line. If saving a hundred or two on maintenance and service is that important, maybe should be looking at Toyota Avalon, Hyundai Genesis, etc.
The dealer (or MB) can always deny it is a warranty issue without experiencing any trouble. Then it is up to owner to prove that it is. Just because you have documentation that something was done, doesn't mean it was done correctly or "to standards."
Actually, we have probably beat this issue to death.
It is an owner decision as to how they want to maintain their vehicles.