K-A

With the "E" line having an astonishing total of 6 different models under its name (2 not even being real "E's" but being C's with E badging), industry-leading discounts, and a freshly comprehensive facelift to the point where M-B is trying to sell it as a premature "new body style", it's as if they're intentionally pulling out all stops to make an impression that this generation has been "well received" via artificial sales showings. When you take into account that umbrella of occurrences, IMO the sales still look underwhelming when broken down into individual models.

ngerstman

I have no problem with the industry leading discounts. It quite frankly makes the e class a much better value than either Audi or Bmw. They all make great cars with a different set of trade-offs, no one is perfect, but each is a pleasure to drive and has industry leading engineering, fit and finish. We are all lucky to be able to afford one of them. My experience and the experience of friends who own the current generation of e class is that they are extremely reliable as well. My e550 is now 3.5 years old and feels just about as good as new, still tight as could be, no rattles and tight drivetrain. If Mercedes can meet their required return on equity and offer price discounts, it implies that they are more efficient than the others. Our gain!. I have no problem with that. My resale might be lower, but I paid less. Thanks. Regards. Ned.

SLpat

I don't see that discounting is a major issue. At the end of the day they wouldn't sell them if they weren't making money. If you keep the base price at a certain level and discount off of that amount or you lower the price and don't offer discounts is more of a marketing choice rather than an indicator of market acceptance of a vehicle. The 5 series is down because everyone is waiting for the new model - also not an indicator of vehicle acceptance.

As for the 6 vehicles under the E badge why does that matter? There are 7 different 5 series models at this point.

K-A

In the U.S (where the numbers listed above are published) there are only 3 5 Series'. And the 5 GT probably sells about 5 models a year to people with unfortunate enough taste, so there are only 2 (regular and M). Hence why the 5 Sedan still does outsell the E Sedan, even with selling for considerably higher actual dollars (and holding higher average MSRP's and not having to faux a "new body style" with an uncharacteristically awkward about-facelift).

Discounting to such extreme degrees to me is unbecoming of a car of the caliber I've come to expect from the E Class. I can understand 6 figure cars getting discounted extremely, but a mid 50's mass market car? It tells you that the market has spoken, and it doesn't deem the car worth the asking price at all, therefore M-B has to resort to measures to keep it moving at a pace that will look good on paper, thus extensive facelifts and discounts. All cars get discounted, but the W212 Sedan (E350 specifically) goes for so cheap compared to the joke of an MSRP that it's astonishing. Yes, it's a great value, but is it really? Or is it simply not worth the asking price and not up to its rivals who sell for more yet don't MSRP for much higher (if higher at all). The Lexus GS350 has started resorting to "W212 style discounts" but that's because it's been a clear cut sales failure and Lexus has a lot of ground to gain in this segment. The E used to own this segment, and now with the discounts and awkward facelift's to try and convince those who don't know any better that it's a new-bodstyle, they've fumbled around a bit recently.

As a premium car, I personally expect a lot more.

Tjdehya

The 5 Series is all new as of 2012, so absolutely nobody is waiting for the "new model."

MB sells the coupe, wagon, cab, and sedan.
BMW sells the sedan and the GT... Since its introduction I have only seen the GT on dealer lots, I have never seen it on the road or in a parking lot.
I dont know why they thought that USA would want a GT. Even if we did want a GT, I think we would at least want one that looks better than that.

Airmousam

Agreed that GT is one ugly car...ive seem one on the road and you can not un-see something like that..i was tempted to take a peek at KA's responses, but I'll venture to guess its more of the same.....will also bet hes about to tell you for the 14th time that the cab is a damn c class

SnakeDoctor

Now, I never got to drive the 5/650 cars. I did sit in them, and there are some nice creature comforts, but I just didn't like the cabin. And as soon as you walk on the lot, the feeling inside the showroom just comes off all wrong to me. In Houston, the showroom is PACKED tight with cars too.

It's mainly mental for me. The unfortunate stigma that BMW drivers get. It's in the back of my mind when I start shopping one.

Arrie

K-A,


Now you star to amaze me too.


You give all these excuses about different car models made under the same "badge" and so on...


You enjoyed the E you had nearly 10 000 posts worth. Under BMW you have just a fraction of posts. What was so bad with the E you had that made you turn 180 degrees and start bad mouthing about the car you so dearly loved before?


For myself, I would NEVER buy a BMW 5 series or probably not even 3-series. Reason is that when I owned my AUDI Q7 the dealer had also BMW under his hat. From the Audi service ramp, where I took my car for oil changes and the navigation installation, it was unobstructed view to the BMW service ramp. During EVERY TIME at the dealer I saw AT LEAST ONE but often two wreckers bringing BMW cars to this dealer service, i.e. cars that were inoperable / stalled on roads.During these visits I DID NOT SEE ONE AUDI brought in on a flat bed.


You have not reported much about your car in this forum yet you seem to spend some time bad mouthing about the MB.


What problems have you had so far with the BMW ride so far that we MB drivers do not know about?

ngerstman

I can't fault Mercedes from playing what US consumers love and that's the "I got a great deal" game. BMW plays the "driving machine" stuff to the hilt and power to them as they can sell their cars with less of a discount, I imagine they have more crazed loyal customers. If you look at financial statement information BMW has a pre tax profit margin of 10.4% while Mercedes is a bit lower at 8.6 %. Mercedes actually has a higher return on equity of 18 % compared to BMW at 16%, a bit more efficient in capital structure perhaps, more leverage. The bottom line is that they both are making a lot of money in the current environment with margins at BMW somewhat higher. The package that Mercedes is offering me in the luxury sedan category fits me better than either BMW or Audi and I believe with better reliability(they are so much better than they were in the mid-later 2000's and earlier). And Mecedes having a lower profit margin than BMW is money in my pocket!! Those are some facts as I see them. Be happy that you are not a slum dweller in Calcutta and enjoy your rides!! We are bantering over angels on the head of a pin, not that I have problem with that, I enjoy reading the comments from those of you with passion, especially articulate writers such as K-A(although we are now arch enemies- just kidding). Thanks. Regards. Ned.

K-A

Haha, you're the man, Ned. We'll always be the best of frenemies.

To make it simple, it isn't that I turned on my E's, it's that I experienced something I find vastly superior at a slightly higher, but comparable enough price. Not to mention, M-B's lack of giving a product that even they can stand behind (hence the about-face makeshift facelift), which makes me lose complete faith in them as a company.

I still love my old E. But reliability isn't the point to make here to me. My F10 has been THE most reliable car I've owned. ALL my Benzes had to go in immediately for fit/finish issues. Not to mention the rattles that plague seemingly all M-B's, very much the W212 included. My W212's were practically rattle-traps, had extremely punishing suspensions with lousy handling tradeoffs. My BMW is the opposite, the suspension is absolutely perfect really, it handles well, like a sports car compared to the E Class, and rides much smoother too. A chassis that's 30% stiffer makes it feel like a tank in comparison, not to mention it's much quieter. The interior is on another level, IMO, I personally prefer the design quality overall though I loved how my W212's looked (the facelift, I can't stand, very haphazard, IMO), the tech makes it feel like a spaceship in comparison, etc.

It's certainly not perfect, I have complaints (I always do), but they're so small and outweighed by the good that they usually don't come up unless it's a topic related to them. It's as close to "perfect" as any car I've had.

People here like to bring up BMW reliability issues of the past, which to me is like when people were bringing up the disaster that M-B's were in the mid-2000's when the W212 came out. BMW has made great strides in the last couple of years, and the 2013+ 5 Series' are about bulletproof. The W212's have lots of quality niggles, transmission, rattles, mine like I said numerous fit/finish, etc. My only "issues" with the 5er thus far has been some glitchy tech that I never experienced with Mercedes, though they work themselves out by turning the car off then on, so not really an issue. Plus, the tech is so far advanced from my more "analogue" E's, I allow it more.

I don't think any less of MY E's, I loved them, but I just experienced something that's much better to me. I do resent the facelift E's, IMO just a compromised product and now design, which explains why they need to be blown out for 3 Series pricing yet still sell less Sedans (talking Sedan vs Sedan, not the other 5 "E Classes" that artificially inflate the segment numbers) than the more expensive (and less discounted) 5 Series'.

This is a thread about the 5 vs E, is it not? Can't expect all answers to go in one way just because everyone here took the great fire-sale initiatives on the E Class.

K-A

Since you asked, I'll give you the negatives I've experienced thus far:

Rear door popped open once on the highway (not completely open, into the secondary latch and the door was still safely locked and "shut"). And it happened to the drivers door another time (again, into the secondary latch, door still locked, so not actually "open" but "unsealed yet locked").

If the iDrive gets hot, it's rebooted on me a couple of times. Takes about 30 seconds if that and it's back to normal. No biggie especially because iDrive in its newest form (huge difference from pre-2013 5 Series') is outstanding and a different world compared to the archaic COMAND on the E (not to mention, tiny screen).

My HUD got "fuzzy" once, which I fixed by just turning it off then on, never happened again. E's of course don't even come with HUD (BMW's HUD BTW is amazing and once you have it, you will hate to consider a car without it).

That's truly about it. No other issues to report yet. Only time I went to the dealer was for a complimentary oil change (FREE), and I'll take it again in 1,400 miles for a full service (again, freed).

People complain about RFT's, but the new RFT's seem to be generally problem free. At least my Pirelli P Zero's on 19's (my E's had 18's, no RFT's and rode like crap in comparison) and M suspension are sublime over the roughest of roads, yet provide a sporty ride when you want to get more "spirited". The W222 with the same exact P Zero RFT's are reportedly extremely harsh, on-rails like and ride horribly. Go figure. IMO, more proof that BMW are on another level in terms of suspension and chassis dynamics.

There are quirks about BMW's that bother some people, like the A/C always coming on automatically when you turn the car on, or having to double-pull the door handle to get out, but you don't even notice them after a while and might even prefer them, AND can get the car coded to take those "features" out.

Oh, which brings me to CODING. You can CODE a 5 Series to do about ANYTHING, it's amazing how many features the car has that are turned-off by the factory in the U.S. You can make the car 10x better in terms of tech by getting someone to code it, which can be free, or not much money at all.

Related to coding: All 5ers have auto-folding mirrors as standard, and you can code them to even operate with the Key FOB! You can even roll up and down the windows with the Key FOB if you code it.

Also related to coding: ALL U.S 5 Series' DO have digital tire-pressure readers, but for some STUPID reason BMW turns of "off" on U.S cars. So you have to CODE it to turn it back on. Annoying for those who don't have their cars coded, and I have no idea why BMW doesn't activate it stock.

Also related to coding and HUD: The HUD in stock form is amazing to me, but if you code your car, you can get almost endless information right there on your windscreen.

As for my E's: I can give a laundry list of issues that I *DID* report while I had it, i.e horrible suspension properties (harsh on rough roads yet floaty like an old Caddy on curves), noisy injectors that made squeaky sounds in the cabin on my 2010, rattles abound on both, especially my 2011, paint defects (dryed up leaks, dirt trapped inside, missed paint spots in panel jambs), a taillight that was smudged inside (had to get a new one) AND a window regulator that was defected and sounded like my door panel was gonna pop off which were both issues my 2011 had the second I got it, forcing me to take the car in immediately, etc.

ddeliber

You know what, the sales numbers are the sales numbers? You used the numbers to argue your points and now that they have changed, Merc has too many models and discounts too much. A 35%+ increase Y/Y and a 25% Y/Y decrease IMO means a lot more than a discount or a coupe. Lets just call it like it is, in the US the E-class is crushing the 5 Period.

Sure the E had some serious discounts in December, crazy even. But it isn't December any more. There are still discounts out there, along with a lot of punched Es, but don't act as though BMW sells for MSRP or anything. I saw plenty of ADVERTISED deals on 5s at over $10k off. Oh, and there are SIX 5 series being sold not three. You need to get your facts straight if you are going to make these types of arguments. If you need me to list them for you then you really don't know what you are talking about. Oh, and by the way, if a car company makes a model that nobody wants to buy, it still counts.

Bottom line though the E and the 5 are completely different cars and are marketed as such. They occupy the same segment because of the size and price point. They are BOTH GREAT cars, but IMO very different. A 5 is going to handle sharper than an E and an E is going ride smoother. IDGARA about your rigidity factors, I've driven several of both and its obvious, this is always the trade off, and not just between BMW and MB. Sure the sport suspension on the 5 is awesome, but it isn't smoother than a base luxury E class with any engine in it. You probably just had too much air in your tires on your 2011 E I don't know, but it is a night and day difference. Plus the 13 and 14 E's are even better on both sides (handling and smoothness), it was pretty obvious to me. I'll bet your frustration with Mercedes or infatuation with BMW got the best of you on your test drives.

Oh, and talking about expecting more from a car company.......
-How about one that DISCONTINUES the FAMED 704 suspension on their MSport 5s and just doesn't tell anyone about it! Yea, no one will notice, hell we sell tons of xdrives and no one complains (no sport susp on xdrive even if you pay for MSport). Then, and this is my favorite part, after the ***** hits the fan, they make deals with certain affected individuals and make them sign a non-disclosure agreement so they can't share their experience!
-OR you have probably the only car company on the planet that STILL can't make a gasket or water pump (or find a good sub to make it for them) that lasts more than 70k miles. Hell, people are replacing the water pump at about that mileage as preventative maintenance! You are just not going to come close to winning any argument for BMW if you are going to include reliability. I honestly can't believe you even tried captain High pressure fuel pump!
-And, lets not forget about a company that does magical things with their nice little 4 cyl diesel engine (the 20d as in 320d or 520d). An excellent engine with great fuel economy very good pep for what it is and reasonably priced between the 20i and 28i models in the rest of the world. Now some how, with a bit of fairy dust and a wink this engine spontaneously transforms into a totally NEW engine once it gets on a boat to North America (not South, just North mind you). It is such a transformation that they have to change the 0 to an 8 and voila, a new machine just for us, the 328d! But of course this wonderful badge transmogrification fro 0 to 8 has to command a premium so these execs with a real high opinion of the intelligence of their American customers charge $1500 MORE for it than the real 328i! All I can say is wow, those are some really special boats they are using.

So give me a break with your "I was expecting more" BS, because IMO BMW has MB beat in this category.

Now everyone, don't get me wrong, BMW makes great cars. In fact I have one and love it. I thought I wanted a 5 a few years ago, but the dealers I visited were to slimy for me, and the fact that the 535 I was interested in went into limp mode during a test drive helped me make my decision.

K-A

No, the E Class Sedan even as the most discounted car in existence is still behind the more expensive 5 Series in sales. Adding C Class Coupes and Verts on top of the Wagon to that doesn't mean much, it's just typical M-B marketing to fudge things to look good in their direction.

Mercedes has a much larger fleet of cars than BMW, and has released tons of new ones lately, one being a FWD joke of a model (CLA) with practically no truly redeeming qualities (sit inside one and read some of the scathing reviews, better yet, drive one for yourself, it literally is not much if at all better than your standard FWD econobox in drive or ride quality, in fact, it's very harsh, like the E Class "Sport" and like the W222 on 20's and RFT's, notice a trend?). Of course it should sell more total cars a year. The fact that they're still in third place throughout the world even with a much larger fleet of cars doesn't bode well.

As well, the 5 Series is still crushing the ENTIRE E lineup worldwide, even with the artificial inflation of the Coupe/Verts and with industry leading discounts in the U.S.

Sorry, but when an E350 leases for the average 328i price, it should post earth shattering sales numbers, even without the help of C chassis Coupes/Verts.

The 704 suspension was sneakily taken out by BMW, but through enthusiasts complaining, BMW did an about-face and put it back. Thankfully, because it's a remarkable suspension that is above and beyond any E Classes offering, short of an AMG.

K-A

Fact of the matter is, M-B thought so lowly of your 2010 E Class, that they tried to fake an "all new body style" for 2014 without adding any real substantiality, not to mention destroying any remaining coherency in the W212 (thus destroying its long term legacy, just watch), while BMW said "why mess with perfection" and barely tinkered with their 5 Series. That's why I call M-B out (certainly much of their clientele give them a pass for everything, while BMW fans at least complain vocally enough to get BMW to act such as putting the revered 704 "M" suspension back on their car), they deserve it and it's the only way to get them back on track.

Look no further than how M-B has treated their W212 and BMW has treated their F10 in terms of retaining dignity via facelift action to see which of them is considered a success and timelessly sustainable by those who actually made the cars themselves. It really explains all that I've been saying.

ImInPA

Just a reminder. These are mass produced cars. They are not hand crafted "objects d'art". MB, BMW, Audi, Lexus, (soon Hyundai) are just flavors to choose from. On any given month, there are killer deals to be had on any of these vehicles, depending on location and dealer inventory. A month ago, the 4 cylinder 5 series were being discounted close to $10K in my area. Just get the one that makes you take that "one last look" after you park it. These discussions are like arguments over whether or not Chocolate ice cream is better than Vanilla. Depends on your taste.

K-A

What's interesting is that now with the Maserati Ghibli (and before it, Jag XF) taking their spin on this segment, you do realize how the Germans really follow suit with each other in certain ways. We can break down 5 Series vs E Class all day, but check out a Ghibli and you'll notice how vastly inferior anything not cultured in "German" is in this segment at this time, at least to me.

If I get my ultimate want for my next car (lease is already up in 7 just over months and I'm already getting too close to my mileage overage) I'd get a Tesla, even though being so smitten with the 5 Series, the 6 Series Gran Coupe is pretty much the closest thing to the "perfect car" for me that I can think of right now, adds some exclusivity and exotic factor, and IMO is bar-none the sexiest 4 door out right now, though slightly modded Tesla's give it a run. It's hard for me to accept anything but German cultured engineering and design when it comes to cars, but Tesla being finally an American car company to be proud of and the most innovative and breakthrough model (Model S) since the invention of the car itself, and being built right "down the way", I can't help but feel proud of it after so many years of irrelevancy and embarrassment from this country when it comes to cars. Not to mention the whole "do away with unsustainable and pollutant fuel" thing is quite the selling point as well. I drove the BMW i3 and although stupid looking, one of the best cars I've ever driven, absolutely glorious fun, and probably the most "BMW driving" dynamic BMW out right now, without things like a powerful drivetrain or an "M anything" and on skinny tires and all. Go figure.

ddeliber

OMG, the world is going to end, a car company had big end of the year discounts. Like BMW in its entire existence has never done this. As I said in my prior post, it is not December any more. Plus you are again off in fantasy land with your "most discounted car in existence" baloney. Your penchant for hyperbole simply takes away from any argument that you make. If you want to exaggerate on discounts, how about the ridiculous residuals BMW is pushing now. Yea, BMW is completely innocent when it comes to discounts. And no you can't lease an E for the price of an average 3 so lets stick to the facts, but you can configure a 3 (well, actually I am talking about a 4, which is just like the E92/3 but BMW marketing decided to change the big number and charge more) to over $70k pretty easily these days from what I have seen (and I am not talking about an M).

Not to let your comment on marketing slip through, I already covered BMW's strategy there with the magical boat rides for small diesels. Which companies strategy (having E coups and cabs vs changing an 0 to and an 8 and increasing the price significantly) is more egregious in your opinion?

If you are going to throw in world wide sales BMW has a bazillion models as well including wagons, and more to the point, they are LESS expensive there - at least in Germany where I took a quick look:

http://www.bmw.de/vc/ncc/xhtml/start...1#MODEL_ENGINE

http://www.mercedes-benz.de/content/...x07V:186tgt7q6

Which of course goes to the esteem that BMW has for its NA customers. Again, a 35% increase in sales for the E vs a 25% DECREASE for the 5 says a lot more than a coupe and a cab. We are talking about almost 70% more Es vs 5s ytd! That is crushing. I don't have recent (not last years) world wide sales numbers for the 5 vs the E, I'd like to see them to see how you define "crushing".

The CLA is the CLA, this is about the 5 vs the E. Plus you've said it yourself several times that reviews don't hold much weight. Hell, they are more about selling magazines as opposed to the cars. Plus you probably don't want to be arguing magazine reviews as the 5 is in the toilet if you believe them.

Dignity? We are talking about cars! Modifying the front end to project a common theme across a lineup is what they are doing. It seems pretty obvious to me. I am not sure where you come up with this stuff. Sure it is a significant change to the front end, but that is MB's strategy, they didn't want to wait until the W213 (or whatever it is going to be) to line things up. Oh, and just because a car salesman lied to you about a redesign does not mean that this is a strategy from MB! To take it as such or to argue that it is says more about you than it does about Mercedes. AND "sneakily taking out" a major component like THE SUSPENSION and then forcing customers to sign Non-disclosures in order to fix it says a LOT more about a company than changing a front end to align with a design strategy. I always let the results speak for themselves and that "don't mess with perfection" strategy is really working to the tune of turning a small lead in sales into a whopping 47% deficit.

K-A

You can be an apologist all you want about M-B's various actions to fudge the this E generation to save some face (multiple models under the name to inflate sales numbers.... which still aren't that impressive considering the massive discounts and high volume models under its umbrella, not to mention the FIRST EVER E generation to get slaughtered by the 5 Series in worldwide sales, hence the REAL reason M-B scrambled to do an about-face facelift to try and make it look ironically closer to a 5 Series in character), but it's just trying to spin a broken story, IMO. The W212 isn't very competitive in this class, never has been, and that's the real reason why you can lease E350's for 328i pricing. 528i's get good discounts, but c'mon, that's a 4 cylinder 5 Series, I'm surprised anyone wants it.

Fact is, you can walk into an M-B dealership year round and they'll practically give you an E350 Sedan, 15-20% is quite common. I myself scored a deal like that back in the summer of 2011! Way before the much better deals even came out. People here have reported significant savings on E350's. When $10K off isn't considered a great discount on a $50somethingK car, then you know something is wrong, and again, it's explained in not only the dramatic facelift, but the sales numbers which considering all the models under its name, aren't all that impressive, and behind the smaller 5 lineup worldwide.

And M-B has a MUCH larger and more diluted lineup than BMW, yet still barely sell more than them in the U.S (they only eked out a gain after throwing out tons of new models, again, one being a FWD in the sub-$30's starting point, of course it'll sell like hotcakes) and still in THIRD worldwide behind the smaller BMW, and much smaller Audi. Daimler even throws in some commercial vehicles to count toward M-B sales to fudge numbers even higher.

PeterUbers

I gotta always give you credit K-A .. you know your stuff. I like the benz discounts, lol, it lets cheapskates like me get into a benz... I love the 550 with M-styling and the M5 is awesome with the competition package...

K-A

Haha, thanks and don't get me wrong, as a consumer and fellow cheapskate, I love discounts too, when I'm taking advantage. I certainly have my views as an enthusiast on what they mean or do, etc, but I'm about getting the best deal out there.

The M5 is awesome, as is that E63 S performance scalpel of yours.

SLpat

You can look at either car and find good and bad points for each. Having had a Z3, 335 and X5 before I can tell you I loved all of them but they all had a hiccup here or there with the exception of the Z3 that for the 3 years I had it never had a problem or even got a door ding! I have an E now and really like the car and while I haven't had it long I have had no issues with it.

The good news is we have the option to choose and can get what you like and try different things. It could be worse, we could be in East Germany before the wall fell and be talking about Trabant's. Of course we would only be talking about the cons because they had no pros....

RobbieRob

Almost 2 years old and this post is still going on??? Keep feeding fuel to the fire and it will keep burning. There is a reason the person that responded to EVERYONES comment(on 13 pages) has over 10,000 posts... As a happy MB owner, I will say that BMW is the best car ever, all models, and is far superior over the Merc, just to kill this ongoing, uninformative post.

ddeliber

Wow, pretty weak. Same old bs. Let me give you a tip, in a debate you are supposed to argue against opposing positions not just ignore them and restate the same thing over and over again.

quick retorts even though I have said this before:
-you can't lease an E for the price of a 3 series and saying so over and over again isn't going to change it.
-MB's marketing is above board no hidden anything they call it an E class it counts, the same can not be said about BMW.
-You can probably get 15% off on an E but the same can be said about the 5's
-52Xs make up the vast majority of the sales of 5 series so you should be careful about what you argue ("no one wants it" - damn that's most of the "crushing" sales you are blathering about). Here in the States I am pretty sure the e350 is top seller.
-I'll take a page out of your book here: 35% increase vs 25% decrease IS impressive
-Did you just argue that MB makes a small FWD sedan and then compare them with Audi in a negative way

edit: Missed one
-From what I have heard and discussed with local dealers, you can't easily get $10k off (most are talking $8 or $9k) an E class but I have seen adds for that off 5 series'. Again this isn't December any more.

Airmousam

You fed the troll, and got the same ole repeat, and repeat again .. Your fault

I barely read his posts, but i saw where is was going

AudiA4Turbo22

This guy knows what he's talking about, not the other way around.

K-A if you don't like the W212 face lift then don't buy one. I for one like it a lot, and at least where I live it's selling like hot cakes. I don't know what "subtle" update you speak of. Heck when Audi face lifted my A4 in 04 all Audi did was paint the lowers to match the body color and make a trunk spoiler standard. ZERO other updates.

You are arguing a bogus case raving for BMW on a Mercedes enthusiast forum, even if the facts are correct none of us are going to just keel over and start saying "BMW is the best". It's a matter of opinion, personally aside from the Z and the 2-Series, BMW makes NO cars that call me attention. The 7-Series is miles behind the S-class so I can't even say I'd want one.