kash2014

For a company that discounts so much MB resale values are holding up quite well despite the discounts. Non 4matic 2011 e class are at auction clean condition are going for 31700 avg ***mind you this is now an old pre plastic surgery face lift"


"new body audi a6" 2011 premium plus 30500 prestige 31200

selling for much more eh? not so much, it's quite telling when an old body merc holds more value over a completely redesigned audi.

The best or nothing

Wig

Isn't a 2011 Audi A6 the old model? Redesigned model arrived as a 2012 I believe.

In any event, the new A6 has been a sales failure. Here in Ontario they are rarely seen.

kash2014

I stand corrected but MB resale values are still holding up well and better as an old body compared to the completely redesigned a6

MB auction values MY2012 e350 4matic
$38,188 $34,297 $30,406
13,358 26,716 40,074

2012 Audi New body a6 premium
$35,384 $31,050 $26,716
25,959 40,979 55,999

2012 Audi New body a6 premium plus
$38,938 $37,021 $35,104
14,860 25,611 36,362



Being low volume, no discount, its still not working, it's not a porsche and will never be

v12driven

While I have driven several M-B's, this is my first ownership experience.

My experience is all-good so far, such a world-beater of a car and so much better than I even thought it could be!

M-B should change their slogan to:

"The reality surpasses the fantasy."

K-A

Are those 4 cylinder A6's? Audi's have always had poor resale, nothing really new there. Fact is, especially in the States, Audi's cachet isn't on par with M-B or BMW, but they're catching up fast. Resales with all Luxury vehicles suck really.

Audi is doing the right thing. They don't have the history that M-B does where they can discount their cars to make their "prestige" and MSRP look like mockeries, not to mention sway a market that clearly doesn't think the cars are worth anything near MSRP, yet still maintain the status quo. If they did what M-B does with the E, people would just assume Audi is an overpriced brand making cheap cars (which is a stigma they've been fighting for decades, and are finally breaking some ground within the last several years).

They need to try and build up a cachet, in the same way M-B, BMW, etc. did in their run-ups, to get U.S consumers to truly put them in the same league as BMW and M-B. By maintaining a higher selling price and not giving their cars away, it earns them a cool-factor (which is why the younger, "hipper" or so self-proclaimed-ly so, people flock to Audi now) and builds up their prestige.

In my mind, the prestige of the E Class really tanked during the W212 gen. People can call it how they want, but fact is, the E was the most desirable car for me to get, and the W212 being my first brand new car I ever got for myself should explain everything. Then, after the cheapening by the too-far discounts, the fact that MBUSA ****** out the Sport Package for free (thus ruining any presence and relative "exclusivity" of the "AMG Sport" look) so every granny in an E Class has the exact same look as a car enthusiast who chose an E Class, and then the about-facelift which looked like something a startup brand who doesn't know what they're doing would do, totally ruining the models coherency through the years, it just cheapened the line to me. The drive is another issue but I know E's have always had floaty rides with soft handling, so I don't hold that against the car (it is, after all, an E Class). What ruined that from me was how horridly harsh and flex-y it is through rough roads. Made it apparent that M-B really cost cut the suspension/chassis development process as there isn't anything it's really good at. Good suspension/chassis engineering, like my current car, does the exact opposite, i.e tight through turns and absorbs harsh roads like a vault on a cloud. I've said this since I had mine, but I feel like with the W212, M-B went from at least trying to convince us that the E Class is some sort of "special" car, to just something volume driven, like a fleet car (which it is in EU, and always has been).

kash2014

V6 AWD

thefisch

kash, great info on the values. Where do you get that from? Is it a subscription?

kash2014

Manheim. A friend who is a dealer made me an account many years ago and it has been invaluable

It has let me gain a lot of perspective when buying my used cars over the years, ones natural reaction is to believe they are getting ripped off, so knowing what wholesale prices are and adding on a reasonable profit, reconditioning, tires, etc it has allowed me to quickly pull the trigger when finding the right car

If you ever need wholesale prices on used cars let me know

cheers

thefisch

beats the heck out of kbb or edmunds. I came to this forum to find out if I had a good deal or not. And even then all you can do is compare your deal to someone else who maybe didn't get a good deal. knowing how much the dealer likely paid puts the power back in your hands. That's awesome.

kash2014

oh ya I love it when dealers say they priced a car below KBB value... as if that means anything

and then when a poor guy goes in proudly with his KBB report that says his car is worth this much, the classic response is tell KBB to buy your car if they think it's worth that much

K-A

Interesting. Makes sense. Audi's have had horrid resales especially since their 80's/90's/00's cars were all reliability nightmares. Gonna take time for them to regain (or gain, for that matter) a reputation where resale counts (reliability, and desirability, the latter which they're having a better time of slowly climbing in the U.S, while worldwide, they already shockingly sell more than M-B do while with a much smaller lineup, which shows how the ROW perceive them).

kash2014

BMW 5 series resales are much higher when comparing similar sized engine / AWD to the MB. but I guess you would have to compare MSRP / avg price sold / to current values to really get a grasp on residuals... something better left for motor trend magazine or consumer reports

current prices only give you anecdotal evidence at best, without comparing MSRPs but I assumed Audi A6s sold at a premium compared to the e350 4matics because they are in the same class

Munich77

Neither has great resale - you are only talking a couple of hundred bucks.

K-A

Yeah, A6's definitely are comparable, same class, etc. indeed.

F10 5 Series' having higher resale than W212's I'd assume is a mixture of the closer to MSRP sales (of course, more so the reasoning behind why they can sell them at closer to MSRP). However, one thing that M-B is sorely missing with this generation is an add-on cost Sports Package, i.e like the M Sport package. I've noticed that M Sport 5's really hold a much higher value than non M Sport 5's, because they have an air of "specialness" basically due to them being priced higher and the marketing that comes with that (not to mention some fundamental performance enhancements).

I remember when I was shopping for my W211 E350, it was so hard to find an "AMG Sport Package" as they were so rare, and when I did, I happily paid a premium for it. The W212, making the Sport Package the free/normal choice where all E's look like that (and the same) means it doesn't get a resale premium when equipped with a certain, more "individual" package.

IMO M-B should make a Sports Package that stands apart from the rest of the range and that's worth charging for. Something that caters to the enthusiast market (that's not an actual AMG).

thefisch

AFIAK most car brands lose 45%-50% of their value after the first three years. See this chart from the WSJ from last year. Of course the bigger the upfront cost the bigger the $ drop even if the % is the same. But these are generalizations across an entire brand and it can vary more across model and option package. When you have a popular style, option package or a model with a devoted following on your hands, you can typically get your price and sell it fast.

drsaab

This is the 2012 535Xi AWD

Sale Price $38,150 $34,017 $29,884
Odometer 17,684 35,367 53,051

Your F10 is really about the same, and for a 4-5 k Higher selling price when new, it seems to depreciate more than the W212

K-A

Like I mentioned, BMW has the M Sport package which M-B doesn't offer on a comparable scale, and further raises resale. Therefore my model will hold a higher resale if that car is not one.

And the depreciation of the W212 is just another relation to its industry leading discounts. I can post some ridiculously low prices on 2-3 year old E350's.

The auction numbers were posted/mentioned above being "much higher" on 5ers and are the most indicative, and even those don't take into account the relatively "rare" M Sport package.

Fact of the matter is, no matter how well received, luxury cars will depreciate a lot, just the way it goes. Cheaper models depreciate less. S Classes and 7 Series', etc. see massive depreciation. Porsche 911 and Panamera are two luxury cars that seem to buck the trend, as they actually hold their values very well (especially the 911, as it continuously gets treated like a modern classic).

drsaab

Those are auction prices of the F10 and there the same as the e350w4. With the F10 costing more new it has a lower residual ‰ showing me one or two cheap E350W4 doesn't change the average auction values.


The x3 retains its value better than the glk though.

I have seen the m super go through the lanes and they pull 1-2 k more. But also cost. 2-3k more new so it's still not a higher value retained percentage wise.

Most m sports eat tires like crazy.

K-A

Yeah, option packages usually go to nil soon. But M Sports pulling even a couple of grand more goes a pretty long way. If you look at E39's and such, the M Sport models will always retain some sort of premium.

The eating tires is the best part! M Sports and/or models with Sport Auto trans get an exclusive "Sport +" mode which disables traction control but keeps a "dynamic ESC" on, therefore letting you roast the tires when you so feel like doing (which only the 535i's and more-so 550i's can do). One of my favorite aspects in getting this car was noticing how incredibly luxurious and quiet/serene it is, yet how bratty and juvenile it can be when you want it to be. Being able to get the rear loose like my old Mustang GT in a car that is first and foremost silky smooth, with the distinct wail of an Inline 6 mixed with slight turbo blowoff valve, yet still get 34 MPG on the highway, is honestly my favorite part of my experience with this car. Peak torque at an astonishing 1,200 RPM's, through a practically flawless ZF8 Speed (esp with Sport Auto) will do that. I guess when it comes down to it, although these products can be directly broken down as to where superiorities reside, sometimes you're a Bimmer or a Benz guy. I guess that description above is when I realized that I'm obviously a Bimmer guy. For now, at least, until M-B may sway me a again.

Funny thing about the tires. My first several months with this car, I was spinning the tires like crazy, as my E Classes could never dream of such a thing, so I was getting it out of my system. Now, with my lease maturity up so soon, I've started driving this car like the granny my E Classes had me driving them as, so I don't have to pay for new tires after such a short stint with the car.

Benzinini

K-A, Just curious, have you made Mercedes Benz aware of your disappointment in their products? I am sure there is a website available somewhere for this. I am no psychiatrist but just reading through these forums I see something much deeper going on here than just my F10 is better than the W212, I think we all get that by now,but this relentless negativity on almost every post suggests (at least to me),that you need this constant re enforcement that you leased the right car.If I remember correctly, you leased two W212s in a row even when the F10 was available and knowing all what you know about these two vehicles.You don't like the face lifted W212, okay we get it, I for one think it looks great and the design grows on me daily. I also think it is a much better design than the plain looking F10 I have trouble differentiating from the 3 series,but you won't find those of us that feel this way endlessly ranting on the Bimmer forums. So my point is for the remaining time you have leasing this vehicle, enjoy it and rest assured that you leased the right vehicle at the "greatest lease rate ever" and let us that prefer the W212 enjoy ours.

ngerstman

I know that this is a thread about comparing and contrasting the e versus the 5 series, but it does seem to me that a lot of the banter has gone a bit too far in bashing the Mercedes. We know that these are two fine vehicles made by two of the best most able auto companies in the world. They are both made to higher engineering tolerances than the class of vehicle below them. They are both more relialble now than either was in the decade of the 2000's when quality control seemed to take a back seat to lowering production costs. They have both found their footing and are both doing a great job. I would have to say from my experience in knowing many people with both current generation vehicles, Mercedes has the leg up in reliability at the moment. I like the design and look of my original 2011 212 body but don't have a major problem with the redesigned look, if I didn't own a 2011 and was in the market I would have no problem with a 2014. The Mercedes engines are all great in the 212, even the older v6 with 268hp, a lot of torque so if you needed to move you could step on that engine. The newer one even better. My v8 is a beast and the new one that much stronger. I happen to really like the seven speed transmission, smooth, quiet and does what I ask it to do, down shifts nicely if I step on it. My car is 3.5 years old and is still as solid as could be, no rattles despite driving on some of the worst roads in the country. The car has been reasonably trouble free. Fit and finish is great. It is quiet. I like the outside and inside design. The drivetrain is still tight, no slipage between engine and tranny. I have never been wild about the interior of the BMW's in general, I find Mercedes and/or Audi nicer. I find the interior cabin of the BMW 5 series more cramped feeling than the Mercedes. The center consol in BMW's seem overly wide which makes the drivers compartment seem smaller. I hate the idrive, even in its current iteration, not intuitive at all, overly complicated. The center of the dash across many models has an ugly chunky look to it, the Mercedes dash left to right more harmonious. I do respect the BMW 5 series for their consistency of design over the years, you know a five series when you see one, a beautiful, timeless functional design. As far as ride and suspension, I like the way my e550 feels aside from the suspension being a bit choppy on rough roads. If the resale versus MSRP is lower for the e versus the 5 series, isn't that more than offset by the discounts that are available to Mercedes buyers? I would say so. So in effect the e is holding value beter than the 5 series. These are both great cars. How one feels about the differences is pretty subjective. I have driven both and prefer the Mercedes. I like the look better and like the interior better. I prefer the drive. I prefer and trust the reliability of the Mercedes for the new models. And it is materially less expensive when similarly equipped. Cost aside, there are obviously many people out there that come to different conclusions, power to them and may they enjoy their ultimate driving machines!! Thanks. Regards. Ned.

fintail

I think that AMG sport package was only 2007+, with the facelift, right? It tended to have those thin 5 spoke wheels. It did look good, I think it might have been a ~2500 option. I am surprised you seem to love the W211, it doesn't excite me, I don't like the curvy dash, and I'd only chase one if it was a late run E63 P3 - it's gotta be rare to lure me in. The sport package on W210 was also good looking, very much like an E55, also extra cost and not commonly found.

Making sport extra cost seems like it would be common sense - most buyers don't care about it, it doesn't give any benefits for most, and it has to cost extra to make. Make it a nominal ~2500 charge, which would make it just exclusive enough to attract a few buyers, and maybe use some of that money to fine tune the ride. The only reason my car is a sport is because it was 100% of units to the other specs that I wanted, and I was impulse shopping, didn't want to wait 4 months for a special build. If I was shopping a 2014 model, I'd avoid it - so I can have a hood ornament and better suspension tuning (although runflats are probably a big issue too - but I can't toss otherwise good tires).

belarus27

one of the things that i like about bimmer is how they handle , otherwise i dont think i would ever trade mercedes to a bimmer (used to have e60 545 before i bought my e550 2010) , the ride seems a bit boring , but saves me from tickets and such haha
plus Mercedes's options are way better id say , you get more for less price , what can i say i seen a 550i 2013 and it didnt even have a heated or cooling seats. i think i should stop here.
they are both good brands , its just a matter of personal preference , and what you like and want from a car. just my thought.

K-A

I have a long history with this forum, it's just the way "we talk to each other" at this point. Members here will throw personal insults this way, I don't sugarcoat my feelings toward M-B (and many funnily take it as a personal slight, i.e get offended by it), it's all good. As well, I haven't posted in a W212 thread in a long time that isn't this one, i.e related to a BMW. The way a thread results is always a two+ way street. You guys can't expect to never hear that other cars are better by people who can articulate and give vast specific personal knowledge on why they deem that is so, when it's a thread a'la "E Class VS ....".

Funny how I always hear the word "grew on me" on MB Forums. Same was said when the first W212 came out, and we saw what happened with that (just 4 years in, M-B deemed it necessary to do the most extensive facelift they've ever done, and all of a sudden, the crowd said.... "yeah, that's right, M-B did it so it must be right, the car needed a drastic change".

If a car has to grow on you, it means it usually isn't a good design, is inherently flawed, and the reasons it grows on you are more political (i.e you just want a Mercedes, the price is right, you feel the designers must know what they're doing, and you ultimately get used to it and warm up to it). Designs that have to "grow on you" mean that in several years when the newness wears off, M-B will do another drastic change, admitting fault again, and the loyalists will say "yeah, it wasn't that good I guess, it needed the [next drastic] change". That's IMO.

Design is subjective indeed, but A GREAT design is stunning the second you look at it, and 5 Series enthusiasts of this generation you'd notice largely all thought the car was gorgeous from the first time they laid eyes on it. Mix that with the W212 who in a mess has had two starkly different looks in one generation, both met with extreme polarization.... talk about imbalance and massive incoherence for just one model run.

Agreed 100% and well said. Making it cost extra is necessary. If it's a valuable option, and provides true sporty needs, then charge for it. It'll also make them more interesting and "special" to see on the roads. I rarely park my F10 next to another M Sport model, yet when I had my E's, every single Joe/Jane with a lease-spec E350 (mine had P2 and more which in itself is rare on E's, again, showing how MBUSA has cultured their shoppers to never "specialize" their E's, hence me using the term "fleet car look") next to me had the exact same car. I had to mod the exterior to set it apart at least a little. My F10 didn't need any mods to get the same effect really, just the simple things I do to every car.

Yeah, I love the W211. Very timeless design to me, one consistent flow throughout the whole generation, thus will continue to age gracefully, IMO. Unfortunately, the quality isn't great and it's quite "fragile" for a Mercedes, so the W212 is a definite step up there. I do feel the W211 interior is more befit to a luxury car with nicer materials than the W212 though.

stale-bread

I think he regrets not leasing/affording the real "M" version. So he takes his frustration out here on this forum. Like almost every post of his, the second to last sentence is a dig at the W212 and/or MB.