greasykid

I have been disappointed in the sound from my HK audio system. Sound was good but I was not satisfied with the "staging"/lack of source separation. To me the HK was a big blob of good sound. Recently saw a post from RNBRAD re replacing tweeters in the A pillars with dome tweeters. oem's are not dome tweeters. Have made the change (my installer did it). Good move. I can now hear an improvement in the surround audio.

I have long experience in selling and sometimes installing higher quality sound systems so I am probably more critical than most. I am not suggesting to anyone else to make this or any other mod to the HK system;just passing on my experience. Cost was less than $100 for the speakers and an install time of 30-45 min.

listerone

Interesting

brauhaus313

Any more details you can provide? What tweeters did you replace the stock with?

Not sure what significance you attach to dome tweeters, but the stock HK tweeters are dome tweeters.

The factory tweeters have a capacitor inline, exact value I don't recall, but the resulting first order crossover is very high. If your installer didn't implement something to this effect, the result you may be hearing is simply a tweeter playing way lower frequencies than your factory hk tweeters did crossed over very high. You may have been able to achieve much of the same results as you have now simply by removing the inline capacitor on the factory tweeter. Of course the tweeters are more likely to blow out, but so are the ones you are currently using if they are not crossed over.

FYI, the mid and tweeter in the front doors run off the same channel from the amplifier. The tweeter is not crossed over at the amplifier and is only "protected" by the inline cap.

BenzV12

As soon as I notice this topic , RNBRAD was 1st to cross my mind and you also mentioned that
So, may be you can also swap your X204's

RNBRAD

Good stuff!!! Most any and all tweeters will have an inline capacitor acting as a filter (1st order) 6db per octave. The cap rating is based on frequency start of attenuation and also speaker ohm rating come into play for that. It's just a fail safe really, added protection. The internal amp has the crossover built in, so in essence the system is all electronically crossed over or in other words "active" versus "passive", which is really the best way to go. Let me delve into what I've learned about this system over the past few months and share it with you all, not to jack the thread but help everyone understand what "we" have. Oh and check the link below and read about the Aurovox among the other stuff.


Last night I got together with some car audio equipment reps, installers, competitors from the DIYMA (do-it-yourself-mobile-audio) web site, about 20of us from my area of the state. Now mind you I didn't take my (retired) world class competition truck, I took my Benz. We spent hours listening to each others cars. They were highly highly impressed with my W212. I can't say enough about this car, how dead it is and the limited sound refraction in the interior. The funky plastic piece under the windshield does just that. That captures and cancels sound waves, creating a very pleasant sound experience. Only thing I'm going to do is deaden the doors a little. I get some reverb from the panels, but man those midbass drivers get after it. One guy thought I had 8'' drivers in the doors, lol. Also our cars are very "tuned" from Harmon Kardon. The Alumaprene drivers are exceptional. The amplifier is a very efficient class D output design with a built in sophisticated DSP (digital sound processor). The entire system is digital to the amp with the amp having DAC's (digital-to-analog-covertors) built in. This means no noise intoduced through analog cables. The system needs a few tweaks cause it is designed for the "masses" or target audience. Tweeters needed a little more sparkle and more subbass and this thing really comes alive. I just can't say enough about the platform. I just feel sorry for the aftermarket world, they are falling so far behind and they are struggling. Reason is because of systems like this. Anyway glad someone made the leap and I'm always around to help if and whenever needed. I haven't found anything I would change, at least today. You know how car audio guys are, always looking for something to change. I've just never been more satisifed with a system and really worried that any changes from this point could go the other way. Anyway maybe the OP could give us some details and post up some pics, that would be great!!! Just an FYI, the wire that has the capacitor, that's the positive wire from the amp. I messed that up somehow and was reverse phased. Easy to hear after it happens. Anyway rock on!!!

Oh also, if your experiencing a "big blob of sound", turn the flipping Logic 7 off. That is the worst piece of crap I have ever heard!!! It will totally trash the sound or any image whatsoever.

http://www.automotive.harmankardon.c.../discrete.aspx

brauhaus313

RNBRAD, what do you mean most any and all tweeters will have a 6db first order? I'd have to say that most tweeters don't have any crossover built in. Take your LPG's for example, or any other DIY type tweeter. I have the wiring schematics for the HK system, and like I wrote before, the tweeter and midrange run off of the same channel at the amplifier. While the midrange is electronically crossed over, the crossover protection for the tweeter is only in the passive cap.

IIRC, the cap on our stock tweeters is glued onto the back of the tweeter, and wired after the plug harness.So if you remove the tweeter and simply wire in an aftermarket tweeter, you no longer have any passive protection of the tweeter and it will roll off naturally.

BTW, HK only started using the Alumaprene name for their E-class system in late 2012. Prior to that, they called it Metal-Matrix something or other. I don't know if the speakers actually changed, but the system in my early 2012 sounds different than the late 2012 loaner I got from the dealer.

I agree that the system is quite good for a factory system.

greasykid

Get details from previous posts by RNBRAD. Used the same german METAL dome tweeters that he used in his post. oem's are not metal dome tweeters. Proper capacitors were used. Worth it to me.

RNBRAD

I'm talking the factory tweets. I've never pulled out a set that didn't have a cap built into it and most system use the cap as the "only" crossover for the tweeter. Of course aftermarket you have to add those, such as I did in my tweeter thread. Adding a cap is very common with active systems and highly recommended. I just bought an audio grade capacitor. Now the tweeter output is crossed over actively at the amplifier. Reason I know this I hooked up a set of MB quart tweeters to see how they sound before I purchased the LPG's. Full volume, no crackle or nothing. I thought these things are crossed over. So I grabbed a 6.5 midbass driver and hooked it to the tweeter wires. Very little sound from the driver, so no doubt they are crossed over from the amp. But like you say it may be just the mid being crossed and tweeter also run in line. What's puzzling to me is if that is the case then the midrange is crossed over very high cause I didn't get hardly any vocals from my 6.5. Now the ALumaprene speakers are a "metal matrix" speaker and considered as such. however Harman has used different versions of the metal matrix speakers over the years. The current ones are aluminum and previous version were ceramic, but they could be intermingling both. As far as I know the ceramics are still produced. I do know the ones in my car look identical to the pics of the alumaprenes, but doesn't necessarily mean that's the exact cone material. The ceramics are used in Infinity Kappa's the high end lines of Infinity home such as the Prelude and interlude series in the past. Just fantastic drivers. But really whatever they are made really means nothing, their definition is in the sound. How did the 2 sound different? It's also very possible that the system could be tweaked from the factory to display different sound characterisitcs. This can be done as feedback is recieved from owners about the system. Unless they change a tweeter, which mine was a dome tweeter, but if they just changed cone material, I doubt a person would notice much unless they changed more parameters of the driver affecting overall performance.

brauhaus313

Your test confirms that the single channel that drives both the midrange and tweeter are crossed over at the amplifier. The tweeter itself however is not crossed over at the amplifier. You're thinking the tweeter has it's own channel at the amp, but it does not.

As I wrote before, the channel that runs both the midrange and tweeter is electronically crossed over at the amplifier in the vocal range. Most any dome tweeter will begin to rolloff naturally well before the point where the midrange is high passed.

Well, glad you all are enjoying your setups. That LPG is one I've been itching to try.

RNBRAD

What makes you think it doesn't? Verified visually by chance? It would be good to have definitive proof. I was assuming based on the frequencies played through my 6.5. A mid will generally come in around 300 to 500hz and play upwards of 10k+, it was much higher like 3 to 4k where the mid started playing. As I say my midbass driver was not playing any lower vocals, it was almost all crossed out with little freq range played at all. So having experienced that, I'm highly surprised the tweet does not have its own channel or another high pass crossover from the amp. I also tested using my 25mm Qt's, so with no high pass crossover, it doesn't make sense they would play down to 500 or so without breaking up, not even a hint. I was a little weary at first so I eased the volume on them so I could recognize them breaking up with the lower frequencies. Never happened even at max volume. Doesn't make any sense if there's not a higher frequency crossover. Anyway here's the link to the system layout brochure. I'll look into it a little further, but if your making your assumption based on the tweet having a capacitor, then we need to look deeper.

http://mercedes.harmankardon.com/bro...Class_1012.pdf

RNBRAD

I pulled the trunk cover to expose the amp. All I was able to verify is the actual color of wires for the tweeters run to the amp only thing I don't know is how the plug on top of the amp comes out. I could easily verify as to what speakers each output covers. Even though the colors match, I would have to pull the mids to verify their possible match as well. Anyway I'm highly curious as to what going on here. Noticed the amp has 2 fiber optic inputs. Maybe 1 is signal and the other volume control. if they are going to run 1 output for the mid tweeter combo, why didn't they add the 6.5 in there as well and cap the mid like the tweet? Rear doors have no mid, wonder what they did there. Look like to me there is enough wires from the amp for every single speaker in the car, but eventhough there is doesnt mean they are all for speakers. Anyway my saga continues and I'll try and pull the speaker terminal plug tomorrow or Monday and do some testing. See what's exactly going on.

brauhaus313

I hope you don't take offense, because I like what you've done with your car and your hands on approach to things going by your posts, but I've had to write the same thing over and over. I'm not making an assumption. Like I said, I have the wiring circuit papers and it shows what wires go where, and clearly, the same channel is shared by the midrange and tweeter, and its verifiable by the wires coming out of the amp.

As far as your testing goes, I'm not sure what it would show definitively, but there are alot of factors to consider. Perhaps those tweeters roll off naturally such that they won't be damaged by frequencies above that amplifier channels high pass crossover. Perhaps your midbass wasn't putting out much sound at all because it is wired together with the midrange an not seeing that much power. Who knows?

You can still choose to not believe me I guess. It doesn't really matter since you've installed an inline cap, and I'm not planning on changing anything except finally getting my sub installed.

RNBRAD

No no offense, you just never stated as to what you based your belief on. I thought it was based on the cap being on the tweet but was unsure. All I was getting was a statement with nothing tangeable. All I had to go on was my tests. I had no way of testing exact crossover freq but just that it was crossed over. Any way you can send the schematic to me? I'm going to pull the door panels soon, got to figure that out too. Going to deaden the doors a little better.

I scrolled back and saw your statement, not sure how I missed it, my apologies.

brauhaus313

Sure, let me try to dig it out of whatever hole it's in and I'll get back to you via PM.

BM2BZ

rnbrad, all i can say is ! but plain english is much appreciated . j/k !

rjcastr

With all due respect, if members from DIYMA got together and were impressed with the HK system then i must be going nuts. In no way do i agree with that statement, do i believe its a decent setup for stock, yes, do i believe that its ideal, no way. i have run a 3 way set up in my porsche where i put 9" midbass in the doors, 3.25 in the doors as well and a tweeter in the A pillar to ensure a good blend, that is not idea, as i believe an ideal 3 way set up would be kickpannels, nevertheless, the system came alive when i really deadned the doors and added the 9" midbass over the standard 6.25.

Now with that being said the HK set up decent but in no way impressive, who in the world puts tweeters in the mirror housing, that is the ultimate sin in audio soundstage, in any case i find having only one midrange as a center channel is not enough voice, whenever you plug in the IPOD or listen to Pandora the bass response is a bit flat and the highs are not optimized.

next momday i will be installing or trying to to install a possible set up 9" midbass deadning the doors and building an internal door pod for my 3.25 midranges, i will add a high end tweeter and utilize my amp as crossovers.

I'm adding 2 12" JL Audio wv6v2, we will utilize 3 amps and run all HK speakers and tuning the whole car with the PXE h6000 i know its not the best processor but it will do just fine in comparison to the HK system. I expect a drastic improvement in TA and overall sound quality. in the remote case we can't fit the 9" midbass with 225 wrms I will just swap the stock speakers with Diamond Audio D971 and run a 2 way set up and run TA with the PXE. i think either of those 2 set ups will definately blow the HK sytem away. Just my .02

rjcastr

With all due respect, if members from DIYMA got together and were impressed with the HK system then i must be going nuts. In no way do i agree with that statement, do i believe its a decent setup for stock, yes, do i believe that its ideal, no way. i have run a 3 way set up in my porsche where i put 9" midbass in the doors, 3.25 in the doors as well and a tweeter in the A pillar to ensure a good blend, that is not idea, as i believe an ideal 3 way set up would be kickpannels, nevertheless, the system came alive when i really deadned the doors and added the 9" midbass over the standard 6.25.

Now with that being said the HK set up decent but in no way impressive, who in the world puts tweeters in the mirror housing, that is the ultimate sin in audio soundstage, in any case i find having only one midrange as a center channel is not enough voice, whenever you plug in the IPOD or listen to Pandora the bass response is a bit flat and the highs are not optimized.

next momday i will be installing or trying to to install a possible set up 9" midbass deadning the doors and building an internal door pod for my 3.25 midranges, i will add a high end tweeter and utilize my amp as crossovers.

I'm adding 2 12" JL Audio wv6v2, we will utilize 3 amps and run all HK speakers and tuning the whole car with the PXE h6000 i know its not the best processor but it will do just fine in comparison to the HK system. I expect a drastic improvement in TA and overall sound quality. in the remote case we can't fit the 9" midbass with 225 wrms I will just swap the stock speakers with Diamond Audio D971 and run a 2 way set up and run TA with the PXE. i think either of those 2 set ups will definately blow the HK sytem away. Just my .02

rjcastr

With all due respect, if members from DIYMA got together and were impressed with the HK system then i must be going nuts. In no way do i agree with that statement, do i believe its a decent setup for stock, yes, do i believe that its ideal, no way. i have run a 3 way set up in my porsche where i put 9" midbass in the doors, 3.25 in the doors as well and a tweeter in the A pillar to ensure a good blend, that is not idea, as i believe an ideal 3 way set up would be kickpannels, nevertheless, the system came alive when i really deadned the doors and added the 9" midbass over the standard 6.25.

Now with that being said the HK set up decent but in no way impressive, who in the world puts tweeters in the mirror housing, that is the ultimate sin in audio soundstage, in any case i find having only one midrange as a center channel is not enough voice, whenever you plug in the IPOD or listen to Pandora the bass response is a bit flat and the highs are not optimized.

next momday i will be installing or trying to to install a possible set up 9" midbass deadning the doors and building an internal door pod for my 3.25 midranges, i will add a high end tweeter and utilize my amp as crossovers.

I'm adding 2 12" JL Audio wv6v2, we will utilize 3 amps and run all HK speakers and tuning the whole car with the PXE h6000 i know its not the best processor but it will do just fine in comparison to the HK system. I expect a drastic improvement in TA and overall sound quality. in the remote case we can't fit the 9" midbass with 225 wrms I will just swap the stock speakers with Diamond Audio D971 and run a 2 way set up and run TA with the PXE. i think either of those 2 set ups will definately blow the HK sytem away. Just my .02

rjcastr

With all due respect, if members from DIYMA got together and were impressed with the HK system then i must be going nuts. In no way do i agree with that statement, do i believe its a decent setup for stock, yes, do i believe that its ideal, no way. i have run a 3 way set up in my porsche where i put 9" midbass in the doors, 3.25 in the doors as well and a tweeter in the A pillar to ensure a good blend, that is not idea, as i believe an ideal 3 way set up would be kickpannels, nevertheless, the system came alive when i really deadned the doors and added the 9" midbass over the standard 6.25.

Now with that being said the HK set up decent but in no way impressive, who in the world puts tweeters in the mirror housing, that is the ultimate sin in audio soundstage, in any case i find having only one midrange as a center channel is not enough voice, whenever you plug in the IPOD or listen to Pandora the bass response is a bit flat and the highs are not optimized.

next momday i will be installing or trying to to install a possible set up 9" midbass deadning the doors and building an internal door pod for my 3.25 midranges, i will add a high end tweeter and utilize my amp as crossovers.

I'm adding 2 12" JL Audio wv6v2, we will utilize 3 amps and run all HK speakers and tuning the whole car with the PXE h6000 i know its not the best processor but it will do just fine in comparison to the HK system. I expect a drastic improvement in TA and overall sound quality. in the remote case we can't fit the 9" midbass with 225 wrms I will just swap the stock speakers with Diamond Audio D971 and run a 2 way set up and run TA with the PXE. i think either of those 2 set ups will definately blow the HK sytem away. Just my .02

rjcastr

With all due respect, if members from DIYMA got together and were impressed with the HK system then i must be going nuts. In no way do i agree with that statement, do i believe its a decent setup for stock, yes, do i believe that its ideal, no way. i have run a 3 way set up in my porsche where i put 9" midbass in the doors, 3.25 in the doors as well and a tweeter in the A pillar to ensure a good blend, that is not idea, as i believe an ideal 3 way set up would be kickpannels, nevertheless, the system came alive when i really deadned the doors and added the 9" midbass over the standard 6.25.

Now with that being said the HK set up decent but in no way impressive, who in the world puts tweeters in the mirror housing, that is the ultimate sin in audio soundstage, in any case i find having only one midrange as a center channel is not enough voice, whenever you plug in the IPOD or listen to Pandora the bass response is a bit flat and the highs are not optimized.

next momday i will be installing or trying to to install a possible set up 9" midbass deadning the doors and building an internal door pod for my 3.25 midranges, i will add a high end tweeter and utilize my amp as crossovers.

I'm adding 2 12" JL Audio wv6v2, we will utilize 3 amps and run all HK speakers and tuning the whole car with the PXE h6000 i know its not the best processor but it will do just fine in comparison to the HK system. I expect a drastic improvement in TA and overall sound quality. in the remote case we can't fit the 9" midbass with 225 wrms I will just swap the stock speakers with Diamond Audio D971 and run a 2 way set up and run TA with the PXE. i think either of those 2 set ups will definately blow the HK sytem away. Just my .02

rufmb

Thanks rjcastr, we get it!

Beemer2

Were the replacements "inverted" dome tweeters?

greasykid

No

BM2BZ

RNBRAD

I guess everyone has their idea of what's ideal. Most competitors are leaving kicks as they cause a rainbow effect in the stage height and are using a-pillar and dash designs., see link below. Like I said before I've been an Iasca SQ competitor for 11yrs so I'm not a car audio virgin. But my system is not completely stock and making any assumption as to how mine sounds with a complete stock comparison is the wrong one. I live in the OKC area and invite anyone in this forum to take a listen, and if it does not thoroughly impress, I will eat crow. Only thing stock is my mid and midbass drivers, but these may be "stock" only in the sense of the word, cause no doubt these are a high quality aftermarket level driver.

Keep us posted on your install. I hope your plans include tapping into the fiber optic and using some type of Toslink adapter, cause using the high level speaker outs will be impossible to achieve any level of sq.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...t-pillars.html