alsyli

Here:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...an-test-review

Interesting that even the people at Car & Driver think the E350 sport has a harsh ride. Still, they seemed to think the refreshed E is an improvement (not that I've ever taken much stock in their opinion).

BTW, the E's w/o leather seats have really cheap looking door-panel inserts....

fintail

W213?

Good call on the door panels, I prefer the diagonally pleated type in my car.

BenzV12

Thanks for the link , W213 is what tickled my interest as well
May be W212.5 lol I believe they mean this new model has some features of it's successor . I really hope we see no more grill inserted MB logo in Avantgarde models
Vertical pleats in door panel all the way , I agree

K-A

Wow, that's what Mercedes gets for a about-face reconstructive surgery. W213 implies it's a whole new model, as if Mercedes succumbed to generic-common brand cycles of just 4 years at a time due to cars not considered over-developed or timelessly styled enough to go the full Premium-Car length cycle. Insane how little homework these reviewers need to do (i.e "none").

Also, NO weight was shaved. It appears even heavier with the figure they quoted. All those parts they listed as aluminum always were aluminum, they're just stamped differently.

Can't say I'm very impressed with the '12+ E350's getting consistent mid 14 second 1/4 mile runs. The HP figure is competitive, however the main issue which is what doesn't even really show up on paper is a lack of low-end torque. It likes to rev to make its power (6500 RPM's) which is a give and take. It simply lacks the usable power of its F/I competitors and doesn't have that robust "around town low end torque" as it makes a "decent" 273 lbs at a pretty high 3500 RPM. Low end torque not only makes a car feel much more powerful than it really is, but allows you to "roast" the rear tires loose (on a RWD model) (which you can't do with an E350 really) on your otherwise sensible and efficient 6 cylinder powerplanted model (provides a dynamic experience). I commend M-B on keeping with an N/A powerplant in this segment and going through great lengths to improve the inherent function of this N/A 6'er by making the cylinder bank angles at a position that allows it to be balanced to a degree where they don't need to use a balancing shaft (a big engineering feat for a V6 which is inherently an imbalanced motor) but F/I is almost unfair in comparison in terms of usable power (torque) and efficiency.

Like I noted, there is NO difference in suspension characteristics between my 2010 and 2011 E350's and the 2014 E350 I drove. As everyone here knows, I feel the suspension on my W212 "Sports" were horrible as the harshness transmitted into the cabin wasn't befitting of such an otherwise luxurious and smooth Sedan and worst of all, wasn't a cost of great handling.... as the car still floats and exaggeratedly sways through turns.... so what's the point of the harshness? To make you "feel" like you're in a "Sports Car" without getting the virtues? Very lowbrow, cheap method of engineering that's indeed the case. Unfortunate to see them note the same on the facelift. They note that the cabin remains "tight and rattle free" but in my experiences with two of them, that only lasts for several thousand miles until that harsh suspension finally starts pushing that tight cabin and chassis to its edge, letting loose some rattles and creaks.

Re: Their comments on the steering. I didn't pay close enough attention but I wonder how the "super light" new electronic steering compares to the lightness of the earlier models' hydraulic steering, which I found to be extremely light especially when I went back and drove my old E Class recently (a friend now has it). M-B has been really lightening up their steerings a lot. The new ML has maybe the lightest steering of any car I've ever experienced.... like if you've ever turned the wheel on a large bus or one of those old Trucks with overboosted steering due to having to move such mass around with ease.

The good part of the electronic steering is the fact that as they say it can tighten up at speed. I wonder just how much it tightens and if it makes the steering more weighted than the earlier W212's with hydraulic steering, who I found generally light at all speeds but still able to go where you pointed it.

More nonsense from them is the "New Attention Assist" which has been around since day one of the W212. They claim the facelift "blends everything together better" but the biggest of their many accumulated mistakes are that it isn't engineered any differently at all than a 2012 and 2013. Everything they complimented or didn't it for were all traits of the pre-facelift (as they themselves seem to allude to but can't quite admit to due to having to have something to write about).

I also agree about the door panels. Noticed that in the one I drove. I love the pre-facelifts slanted horizontal lines. The new ones don't look as luxurious.

BenzE350

I read the C&D review and then checked in at MBWorld to see if anyone was discussing it.

As a former E350 sport owner, I think Mercedes is moving in the right direction but still lagging behind the competition. The 2 biggest disappointments I had in my 2011 were the anemic engine and ride impact harshness. MB has significantly improved the engine (although it is still the slowest 0-60), but why can't they figure out a way to provide a more luxury ride?

The E350 may be a product of a luxury brand, but its suspension settings favor a European preference for road texture instead of isolation. Frost heaves, expansion strips, and broken pavement transmit impact harshness through the 245/40 series Pirelli P Zero tires.

Tjdehya

Even though you bought the "sport" model I think that the only difference between a sport model and the luxury model should only be appearance. Both sport and luxury models should perform exactly the same and give the driver the ability to switch between the two modes much like the E550 with Airmatic.
However Mercedes has decided to build an E350 "Sport" so today their answer to you and the reviewer could be as simple as if you want luxury then you shouldn’t have been driving an E350 "Sport".
I disagree with that but I think that is the answer that MB has E350 shoppers.

K-A

Problem is that the "Sport" still wallows and body leans through turns like a Luxury model would. Mercedes seems to think that "Sport" doesn't mean tight handling or sharp cornering, instead simply "harshness over road imperfections with the road vibrating throughout the chassis". I hate to say it but just about every bonafide competitor in this class handles better yet goes over bumps better at the same time. IMO Mercedes needs to stop messing around by way of being too scared to go extreme in one direction. Either make the E all-out unapologetically cushy and smooth like it is on straight and smooth roads, or make it actually tight through turns with minimal body roll to have an excuse for the jarring ride over rough roads.

alsyli

+1. Consumer Reports ended up testing both the luxury and sport models of the C- and E-classes and found that, in both lines, there are apparently VERY significant differences in ride and steering (well, at least for the C-class for the latter). CR actually thought the C250 luxury had heavier steering than the sport.

I had always assumed that the difference was more cosmetic until I heard this (esp since car mags had always said the difference were minor). Rather unfortunate, as I think the ride in my C250 is overly firm. To be more specific, our pre-facelift C300 had a very busy ride but still provided good dampening over large road irregularities (speed bumps). The C250 is almost the opposite (less busy ride but much more bumpy over large irregularities). The vague and slightly overly light steering (it's actually the vagueness and the lack of self-centering, IMO, that makes it seem so light) + lack of dampening over large bumps makes the car oddly tiring (for an MB) to drive on the freeway.

As for the feather-light steering in the ML/GL, you can blame the general US car-buying population; MB states that their sample wanted the steering to be that light (::shudder:. Probably the same folks that complained about the 3-series having overly heavy steering (double shudder). Also probably the same people who lap up the "sport" C- and E-classes w/o realizing that neither are particularly sporty....

At any rate, I'm still happy enough w/ my purchase that I'll con't to buy MB products in the future.... I'll just make sure I got the 1 luxury model on the lot. =P

Live Oak

Look, I'm not a "sporty" guy --- I probably don't even belong in this thread. However . . . for a fresh perspective . . .

Yesterday, I left my (loaded) 2011 E550 Luxury with the dealer for service, and he gave me a 2013 E350 Luxury with the "Sport Package" as a loaner. Includes 18" Contis. I'll be driving it all weekend.

My impression is awful!!!!

The ride is so harsh that I'm reaching for my kidney belt! And so noisy I turn off the radio just to keep the total noise level down.

And the engine winds up like an out of control lawnmower, and that's in E mode! . . . lots of apparent pep on the low end, but huge noise in the cabin, and questionable poop when passing at 50mph+.

Now, I don't intend to be snotty re: E550 vs. E350, but I will say the smooth, responsive, quiet power of the E550, and its easy quiet ride, sure spoils a person.

Which leaves me with the question, and worry: is Mercedes going "more European," trying to be more "BMW-ish?" And is the 2016 E550 likely to be more "road aware," meaning tighter, harsher, noisier?

K-A

Well said. IMO Mercedes is still trying to find a clear vision in driving dynamics and that confusion is messing up/hurting the current products' balance and holistic driving experience when put to multiple tasks (harsh roads or handling wise).

BenzV12

In reply to K-A's post
MB is already making a sport model as tried to stress on . It's E63 AMG ,may be it came thru your mind but didn't talk about it .If this is case , then the chances are you are trying to talk about standard W212s or this is a place for non AMG cars and you would not talk about it
I read a couple of car mags (German origin) about W176 and C117 CLA and perhaps in a jocular way editors and test staff dropped a note saying how tough these cars were and these cars suspension settings were un-Mercedes-Benz.
What's more they also went further ahead saying that unless you have some back problems .In other words buy these cars if have an affair with your kidney doctor

However, W212 is nowhere as hard as these cars and believe in me there is no need to make a complaint about it ,dare I say any W212 with such hard settings in non glass smooth roads would complain about suspension stiffness of W212s and having as hard suspension as BMW M division could bring more harm than good
MB's suspension settings are like Earth's location to the solar system but that's my opinion
Keep posting

Tjdehya

The answer to that question is easy... "No"
Because 2014 is the last year of the E550. So in the year 2016 if you want a German V8 mid size sedan you will have to look at AMG or another German Brand.

The biggest complaint about the W212 harsh ride is not that it is not as harsh as an AMG, M series, or any other car that costs half as much. The complaint is that it is not comparable to its competitors. It cant be "sporty" without being "harsh" while other can.

Beltfed

Its a give an take type deal, look BMW still comes with those POS runflats on non M models. First thing I would do, is dump those tires ($$$). If you get an M Sport Xi model (AWD), you don't get the M suspension. You have to get the RWD model, not an issue for those in warmer climates. So, if one decides to get the AWD model. In order to get the most out of the car, you need the Dynamic Handling package...which is $3,500. On top of everything else that's optional.

Supposedly, the 14' standard models suspension has been buttoned up a bit.
And I'm not anti BMW, have had 4 M cars to date.

E Classy

.

alsyli

Hard to say if it's a gender thing. MLs and GLs in my area (West LA) seem to be piloted by a lot of females. Same w/ the C-classes. 3-series are probably evenly split?

I think it's fine to use consumer clinics to figure out things like how many cupholders you should put in a car (horror) or what color combinations people like. But company itself, not consumers, should determine how the car drives. Many people probably only buy MBs/BMWs/Lexuses (Lexi?) b/c of the badge on the trunk. They could care less how it drives, so why bother asking them their opinion? ::shrug::

alsyli

Yes, I think MB is/was a bit confused (seems like the confusion is clearing up a bit? The interiors have been improving recently, and the upcoming S-class almost looks coherent). I think Lexus is going through a similar identity crisis....

drz

Far be it from me to question a C&D review, but.....
They should come by and drive my wife's 2012 BMW 5 Series with run flat tires if they want to feel a harsh ride and every expansion strip.

DR.Z

K-A

Totally agreed with about everything you've said here. I hope the confusion is clearing up as I'm eagerly awaiting. I'm not a big fan of the lines or front (or rear) on the new S Class (which I seem to be in the minority on) but it does seem to be more resolved than say the CLS or some of their other recent launches, speaking on behalf of myself.

I have a 2013 5 Series with the new-to-'13 spectacular mechanical M suspension (very different from the suspensions on all the other F10 5's) and 19's on RFT's (compared to the E on 18's and non-RFT's which should give it an advantage right there) and it coasts and glides over surfaces that jarred, rattled and completely flustered my E Class. It really takes some messed up roads to transmit harshness into the cabin and even then, there's the excuse that it's a competent handler as the car can take corners at speed almost completely flat, balanced and planted whilst the E would sway and roll heavily.

One area where the W212 is simply not comparable to others in its class IMO is in suspension dynamics in any form, be it comfort over rough surfaces or handling virtues. The F10 5, A6, and Lexus GS are all superior to it in those regards. Where the E shines is in a luxuriously slightly-floaty yet planted-solid feel when going over smooth surfaces in a straight line.

This is something that I've been beating the drum against the W212 on since I got my first one in 2010 (see all the threads on the subject with me vocally in it in the recent years along with a thread I started entitled: "Disappointed in the W212's suspension characteristics over rough roads" which was full of owners complaining about the very same thing. M-B had a chance to fix it in 2012 when they apparently raised the suspension on the Sport up a little bit, and then for the facelift in 2014 which again didn't change the driving dynamics or suspension one bit, unfortunately.

CEB

I'm glad to hear that they fixed the M suspension on the 2013's because previous versions were gawdawful.

There are a couple of "imperfect" manhole covers on my daily commute that are somewhere between a 1/2 inch and an inch below the road surface.

Hitting one of those with my 335xi was like "damn, I just hit a manhole without a cover" and the experience was similar with a 2012 535i M-sport.

Running over one of those with my current Acura is "why didn't I avoid that bump in the road?" There is no jarring, no shaking and no thoughts of "I just busted my front suspension"

K-A

Yeah, the mating of an M suspension onto an inherently cushy and isolated chassis like the F10's which is essentially just a shortened 7 Series platform seems to work wonders in alleviating issues people had with each, i.e M Sport suspensions on older BMW's being "too much road feel for a luxury car" and the F10 being too isolated/luxurious/disconnected.

I remember after I drove a 2012 535i M Sport I was also somewhat unimpressed in its dynamics. I liked all the things I've always liked from the F10, but the ride itself left me a bit "is that what all the hoopla is"? towards it. The 2013 M Sport (RWD) is a whole different story, as pretty much everyone on the Bimmer boards who's gone from an '11/'12 to a '13 enthusiastically expresses (even the steering has changed for the better).

There are certain hard potholes or rough patches that I have to go through that will vibrate and fluster any car, but it takes a pretty big one to "pound" through the chassis of my car. With both of my W212's, just about every rough surface would pound through the chassis, including ones that my F10 coasts over.

If I had to say for a luxury "Sports" sedan how I'd rate elements of each (out of a best being "10"):

-W212 E350 "Sport" ability to withstand rough roads pounding through the chassis: 4/10.

-W212 E350 "Sport" handling i.e anti-body roll/anti-loose/pro-tightness/balance through turns: 5/10.

-W212 E350 "Sport" luxury/comfort/tank-like solid ride over smooth roads: 10/10.

-'13 F10 535i M Sport RWD ability to withstand rough roads pounding through the chassis: 8/10.

-'13 F10 535i M Sport RWD handling i.e anti-body roll/anti-loose/pro-tightness/balance through turns: 9/10 (little body roll going into it if the momentum is working against you, but the car literally levels itself out through the turn which is remarkable for a passive suspension).

-13 F10 535i M Sport RWD luxury/comfort/tank-like solid ride over smooth roads: 10/10.

-Lexus GS (Standard/Non-F Sport) ability to withstand rough roads pounding through the chassis: 9/10.

-Lexus GS handling i.e anti-body roll/anti-loose/pro-tightness/balance through turns: 7/10.

-Lexus GS luxury/comfort/tank-like solid ride over smooth roads: 7/10

-Audi A6 (AWD V6 non-S Line) ability to withstand rough roads pounding through the chassis: 7/10.

-Audi A6 handling i.e anti-body roll/anti-loose/pro-tightness/balance through turns: 10/10.

-Audi A6 luxury/comfort/tank-like solid ride over smooth roads: 6/10.

drz

I'm new here and K-A has over 9000 posts, but I find it odd how he constantly rips the E Class and praises the 5 series here on a E-Class forum.

I'm a long time BMW owner, my first BMW was a 1975 2002 model purchased in 1975. I have owned over 20 BMW's and this is my first Benz.

I refused to buy another BMW do to the EXTEMELY poor electric streering.
It is totally dead center feel, and so loose that if you turn your head the car will track that way. Not to mention the driff to the right problem that 90% of the new 5's have that BMW can't fix.

I didn't buy my 2014 E-Class to be a sports car , as I have a M6 for that.
I felt the E-Class gave me the proper blend of luxury and sportiness, in a well sorted car, without the addition of a 3k plus option like the M suspenion package.

Not trying to start a fuss, but there is always two sides to each story.

DR.Z

dwright10

My 2014 Luxury suspension is, in fact, luxurious. I tried the Sport & it was harsh, but 'flat', not suitable for me. Per my SA, pre-2014 Luxury & Sport were basically the same suspension, but he correctly indicates there's now world of difference. Too bad C&D didn't compare the 2.

petee1997

It really pisses you off that they liked the car. The ride is no harsher than those run flats from BMW. I know, I've had a few. K-A you are no longer objective, why don't you do your postings on the BMW enthusiasts sight with like minded people.

Most of us here would be driving a BMW if that's what we wanted. We are driving MBs because that is our first choice.

We have all read your opinions. Why keep boring us with the same thing ad nauseum. Move on, please move on. So many of us are tired of reading your drivel.
You are banned from one sight and the guys on the new generation S class (W222) have asked you to leave. There is nothing you can add here since you no longer drive an MB.

Those from this forum that like your opinions can read them on the BMW forum.

alsyli

Why in the world would an auto mag test the "non-sporty" version of the car? Why in the world would they examine the car the way most drivers will use it? For them (esp C&D), firm (to the point of harshness) is always better. ::eye roll::

I still remember how no car mag mentioned how (unacceptably) harsh the ride of a sport-package 3-series was until the new 3-series came out w/ its softer suspension. Nope, it was always, we love the sports package! It's only a little firmer than the regular suspension! Don't be a p*ssy and get a 3-series w/o it! ::shrug::

Guess a little of wine and food will make automotive journalists tow the company line....

We had a 328i (last gen) w/ the regular suspension. Didn't objectively handle any better than our C-classes, but, subjectively, the ride/handling compromise was brilliant (even w/ the run flats) and the steering was near perfection. I think people who say that C-class was anywhere close to the last-gen 3-series are completely off their rocker (car mags included).

And yet the car needed those positive b/c it simply wasn't a very good *car* otherwise (horrible ergonomics, fritz-y electronics). W/o those characteristics, there's no point, IMHO, to getting a BMW (except for the 6-series, which is absolutely gorgeous).... Just as there's no point in buying an MB that doesn't have class-leading ride and stability at highway speeds. ::shrug::

Of course, I always blame the moronic buying public, since I see a ton of sport-package equipped 3-series running around. Again, if you put "sport" on something, that must *clearly* make it superior. I remember when I test drove the 2008 C300, I asked for luxury model. The salesman said, "That's more for old people." Uh, okay....

ImInPA

If I had to rate this thread: 0/10